Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 32

[Assaltwaffle]

I won't even argue with someone who wants to argue that "everything is relative" in regards to the species or that animals are somehow on par with humans. You may call it egotistic, but I call it obvious. Humans are vastly beyond all other animals; we aren't even comparable. I believe that was have been designed to be the dominant race, and that we have been given the ability to discern morality.

As for saying that "humans are evil 'cause we do bad things..." I am not even going to argue that one either. Of course we can do great evil, but we also can do far more good if only because of our advanced nature and abilities. An animal will still remorselessly destroy an entire species if given the chance; they don't because they can't.

Also, this is majorly derailing. We should probably stop.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Goku's biggest issue is that for all the improvement he's done for his power and skill level, he hasn't actually done any improvement on himself.

By this, I mean that he's still winging things and doing things on impulse and not thinking through what could happen. He went against Beerus' words on dealing with Zen'o and look what's happened. Granted, he didn't want it to happen but still it needs to be addressed.

Shoot, I can't wait for Vegeta to find out about all of this.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assalt

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I'm just wondering why less people are pointing fingers to Zeno and/or Daishinkan. In the end, Zeno is the one choosing to erase everything. Is he evil? Again, there's two ways to think about.

We could say, yes he's evil. Therefor really he should be the one to blame.

Or we can say, no. The morality of the mortals in Dragon Ball don't apply to him. His will is absolute, and is right no matter what because he holds supreme authority. In which case, Goku, by extension can't be evil either as he's helping to promote the will of someone who is exempt from being evil.

That may sound rediculous, but there are already beings in Dragon Ball who are like this. The Gods of Destruction have legit authority to destroy countless lives, and it's not evil when they do it. And if a God of Destruction authorizes another to destroy life, then that person isn't evil if they have authorization from a God of Destruction. And if Goku became a God of Destruction, like Whis suggested, then he still wouldn't be evil.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dang it, Meleenium. Why are you so nice XD.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Dang it, Meleenium. Why are you so nice XD.

If that's not sarcasm, then thanks I guess? xD If a debate has potental of getting heated, I still try not to flame or be condescending while also being direct and to the point as much as possible. Though I'm still not perfect at this xD

If that's sarcasm, then sorry. I don't like to sugar coat things and I like to be as direct and to the point as much as possible xD

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's not sarcasm. Even when being ranted at, you're respectful. It's not polite for a staff member-nay-anyone to be insultingly sarcastic.

 

[Ryukama]

I guess we'll agree to disagree. But while humans have done very self destructive things, as a collective we do survive and thrive far more than animals do. And have managed to create/make use of things to a far greater extent than any other species on earth has. Along with our weaponry and machines completely negating any physical advantage an animal like a cheetah might have over us.

Also animals haven't done the horrible acts we have done because they are not at all capable of doing so, even if they were to want to.

Nor do I think a life form is exempt from criticism if it knowingly and willingly brings suffering and torture to other concious life simply because they are aliens.

But this is completely unrelated to the topic, and I am willing to drop it.

 

[Thebluedash]

No need to go so deep in a discussion thread for a series about muscular blonde men fighting guys.

 

[Ryukama]

No need to go so deep in a discussion thread for a series about muscular blonde men fighting guys.

Muscular blue haired men fighting guys thank you very much

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Thebluedash

Honestly, you gotta give Dragon Ball some credit, because lately, the story has evolved into some serious and deep shit. That shit with Zamasu was crazy, and it really feels like its pulling elements from western theology, which is a very touchy subject matter.

DBZ has the best action and blood. But Super has the best writing the Dragon Ball series has seen thus far. Zamasu reminded me of some Death Note shit, and this new arc has me on edge as well. And finally the series deviated from the dragon balls just fixing everything after the threat is gone.

Trunks' timeline destroyed? Nope. You ain't getting that shit back, but you can go to a shallow copy timeline where there's already another you there. Everyone you ever knew got erased except for the friends you made in the past, but you'll probably never see them again. All those people you save from the Androids and Cell? That was for nothing. They're gone. Super Dragon Balls that can grant any wish? That will fix all our problems. Oh, but you gotta be a deity to use them, and the deities don't give a **** about you, but we'll let you use them this one time if you win this tournament.

 

[Nibbler3100]

So many complainers I for one am excited for a Dressrosa Coliseum free for all match it's gonna be lit

 

[Joseph619]

I wouldn't call Goku a shitty character in Super, but he definitely is not a good human being. Goku doesn't feel any sorrow when people who're unrelated to him die. He was laughing like a jackass when Zamasu killed tons of people in Future Trunks Arc. Akira Toriyama himself said he doesn't think Goku is a good guy, so people who believe Goku is a righetous hero need to accept the truth

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Well the Dub is at fault for making Goku sound heroic when he is not...

Another topic....

I heavily disagree about placing Bergamo that high in the Dragonball page...

 

[Dark649]

You are right the Funimation Dub changed some lines and traits of characters personality (Goku and etc.) especially for GT, which was filled with bad rap and other things. I placed Bergamo that high because his full power was clashing with Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku Kamehameha, while Hit was overpowered by only Super Saiyan Blue Goku charging his ki, but i think Hit is stronger now and Bergamo will be lower in the future.

 

[Dark649]

One example is difference between the script of the Bardock special between the Japonese version and the English Versio.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Well the Dub is at fault for making Goku sound heroic when he is not...
Another topic....

I heavily disagree about placing Bergamo that high in the Dragonball page...

Bergamo legit held back a SSBKKx10 Kamehameha. There's no reason why he shouldn't be placed that high.

If it's because he had trouble with SSJ Goku, well note that Bergamo powered up himself right after Goku went SSB. Meaning he added his own power to the power he absorbed from Goku.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

You are right the Funimation Dub changed some lines and traits of characters personality (Goku and etc.) especially for GT, which was filled with bad rap and other things. I placed Bergamo that high because his full power was clashing with Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku Kamehameha, while Hit was overpowered by only Super Saiyan Blue Goku charging his ki, but i think Hit is stronger now and Bergamo will be lower in the future.

It's not just the Dub. Toei Animation also made him more heroic than how Toriyama portrayed him in the manga. So Animeverse Goku is factually more heroic than Manga Goku, and DBSuper is probably just trying to make him be like how he was in the manga again. And people aren't use to it.

Honestly, Toriyama should just concede to his editors a little bit. His peers recognize that how he wants to portray Goku can make him very unlikable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Funimation turned Goku into Superman. That is a fact. Goku is kind of an asshole in Z as well, if you actually watch the japanese dub (Or in my case, the brazilian dub which is far more faithful to the original), you can see that Goku, while still a kind person who is always willing to fight for the Earth, is still very much selfish and prideful.

His primary motivation has always been his own strengthening and continuous improvement. He spares his deadliest foes not because he is kind, but because he wants to fight them again in the future, which is also why he often demands One on One battles against villains, rather than having all the Z Warriors gang on them. He doesn't spare Vegeta out of nobility, nor does he wish for Buu to revive so that he can get a chance to be a good person in his next fight. No, he does those things because he wants to punch them again.

In the few times Goku's motivation has been something other than his own growth in power and skill, it's been revenge rather than heroism. He wanted to defeat King Piccolo to avenge Krillin's death, and similarly his final battle against Freeza was motivated by rage, and a desire to humiliate him.

Throughout most of the Freeza arc, he was actually looking forward to fight against Freeza do to his power. Yes, he was aware of the threat and wanted to stop his reign of terror, but punching the next "Strongest guy ever" was just as important to Goku. When he turns into a Super Saiyan, his speech to Freeza isn't one of heroic selflessness, but of burning wrath. He deliberatedly holds back against Freeza, humiliates him, breaks his spirit and shows no joy defeating him. That was a violent revenge, not an act of heroism.

So yes, Goku has always been an "Anti-Hero", not in the sense we typically imagine those as being (Edgy, violent guys with a sad backstory), but in the sense that his motivations and goals have never been primarely heroic nor selfless.

 

[Jeune_fou]

Anyway Goku clearly is not going to become "evil" or something. Those who say this don't understand how Goku works at all.

Goku taunts other universes (and Toppo) so they'd try the very best they can against them (and not because he likes to see other universes suffer). That's as simple as this ... it's not "ha ha ha! I'm evil your universes will be destroyed and you can't do anything against that cuz I'm gonna crush you all!" ... clearly people who think that don't know what they're talking about because all that is just a facade he showed to other universes ... not his real personality.

I think goku is clever than we think ... he realized he cannot go against Zen'ô's will so he tries to have the best fights possible (even by taunting his future opponents and make sure they would go all out against him) and also he knows super dragon balls will be the winner's reward and knows he can use them if he wins to revive the destroyed universes.

Goku did the only thing he could do: try the best he can to win this tournament and save everyone while having fun during that same tournament.

 

[Jeune_fou]

I have a hypothesis: why do you think the daishinkan asked for a battle royal?

I think he did that to weaken the 80 fighters in the same time (that wouldn't be possible with a classic tournament) and try to grant his wish with the super dragon balls (perhaps it's something related to Zarama).

 

[Ssr4vegito]

why are people saying goku used 10x kaioken he possibly used normal kaioken with ssb against bergamo

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@MatthewSchroeder

Goku spared Frieza out of compassion and forgiveness though. He wasn't going to, but Frieza begged him. I know for a fact that this wasn't Funimation changing the dialogue, because the Japanese one is the same mostly.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

@MatthewSchroeder

Goku spared Frieza out of compassion and forgiveness though. He wasn't going to, but Frieza begged him. I know for a fact that this wasn't Funimation changing the dialogue, because the Japanese one is the same mostly.

more like pity

 

[Ryukama]

I kind of like the asshole Goku Matt describes. Perhaps not like him as a person, but as a character and concept.

I just like the idea of a hero with rather complicated morals. One that lies in a rather grey area. Who at many times cannot be called a hero, yet at the same time is far from evil. The type that saves the day but in his own messed up way.

While nowhere near as admirable or inspiring as heroes like Superman, the much more flawed, questionable heroes like Goku and Odysseus I find the be very interesting. And ones that often force us to think further than a simple "good guy vs bad guy."

I know a lot of people will very strongly disagree with me, but I think the recent arc has taken that idea a bit too far. The "selfish asshole who will still help out if he wants to" is getting warped into a much more uncaring and arguably malevolent person. I won't call him downright evil, but I certainly do not personally like his behavior lately.

 

[I_s_u-c_l_o_n_e]

I have a theory. What if Goku is acting like this because he doesn't think it matters in the end? Remember that the Super Dragon Balls will be given to the winning Universe, so what if Goku's plan is to use that wish to bring back the Universes that were destroyed? However, a problem rises up. It's revealed that Zeno's rule is absolute and anything he does cannot be undone.

This obviously could use some polishing, but nonetheless I think it's rather interesting.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I do expect some sort of twist at the end, and I think Goku knows something no one else does. The way he's acting is out of character, even for him. He's never shown such an indifference towards countless lives being wiped out, and has always shown concern for lives in similar situations. I've even checked the Japanese version of certain parts of DBZ to make sure of this, so it's not like Funimation made him more empathetic.

 

[Huesito88]

So episode summary leaked and grand priest stops goku and Toppo fight so maybe that's why we see Toppo get scared because he maybe refused to stop at first until grand priest gave him the look. Also scene can be all mixed up so in previews but this is only speculation until the episode airs.

 

[Darkinx]

Universe 9 angel is called Mojito. Source: Kamisama Explorer

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I wonder if the J is pronounced with the English H sound or not.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Well, not to derail any conversations, but I think I'd like to lighten the mood (although I do agree with Matt and Ryu's statements).

Did you know you can be a Super Saiyan? Yes, you can! But only after helping this guy become one first! On a lighter note, I do remember hearing about an article that gave an interesting opinion about Roshi's training program, but I can't find the article. I wonder if it had any merit?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Goku spared Freeza out of disgust. He hated Freeza so much he didn't seem him worthy of being killed.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

That doesn't even make sense. Frieza was dying from a self-inflicted attack. It's not even an issue of Goku refusing to kill him as he was dying anyway. Sure, the fact that he didn't finish Frieza off after he was sliced in half may have been a "you're not worth killing" sort of thing. He was expecting him to die with Namek anyway. But giving some of his ki so that Frieza could actually survive, right after Frieza begged for help, is a totally different thing. That was due to his forgiving and compassionate nature, even though he was clearly reluctant to do it. The initial reluctancy was definitely out of hatred and discust, but his compassionate and forgiving side got the better of him.

 

[Aldahshan93161]

The white alien guy is called jiren confirmed here http://youtu.be/0m0fjqSSRm4

 

[Nibbler3100]

Does Ji-Ren mean anything in japanese

 

[Darkinx]

Toei website has been updated with some new names and bios:

U11 God of Destruction: Vermoud Does not abide evil. The valiant efforts of the Pride Troopers send his heart aflutter.

U1 Kaioshi: Anato God of the universe with the highest mortal level. Has a gentle smile.

U3 Kaioshi: Ea Slightly influenced by mortals who like machines.

U3 God of Destruction: Mosco Looks like a robot. Communicates through electronic sound.

U4 Kaioshi: Kuru Haughty, his pride as a god is extraordinarily high.

U5 Kaioshi: Oguma A gentle god who values a balance of knowledge and power.

U8 Kaioshi: Iru Loves making plans, and gets fired up when those plans start to come together.

U12 Kaioshi: Agu Says virtuous things. Although his universe is already developed, he aspires to take it even higher.

U11 Angel: Marcarita

Universe 11's guide. Always gives candid advice to Kai and Vermoud, who are insufficiently strict. An angel with an individual speaking style.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Vermoud and Marcarita is the best ship.

 

[Ryukama]

Vermoud and Marcarita is the best ship.

Nah Barry x Videl is...

O V O

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Nah, Goku and FemBroly.

 

[Shock97]

 

[Tori-Bot]

My children have all grown up