Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 32

[Ryukama]

@Cal yes that was the deal Bergamo made with Zen'ō.

Bergamo wins, the universes won't get destroyed if they lose. However if Goku throws the fight or holds back, all universes instantly get destroyed. Though some are arguing there was still a chance for Goku to throw the match and get away with it yet he didn't take it.

 

[Ryukama]

Goku is not designed based on idealism. He's a man with flaws, just like most of us here and most people you personally know in real life. Japan doesn't make highly idealized protagonists like the western world does and that's what people need to understand.

Well I think practically not caring at all about the death of decillions of innocent lives and risking mass genocide on multiple occasions for the sake of a fight go a bit beyond just "a man with flaws like most of us." More like someone who at best is moronic and shallow to the point of literal mental impairment and at worse a selfish, uncaring bastard.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ryu

Amen to that.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assault

You do have flawed logic. Basically you expect Goku to somehow go all out and throw the match on purpose at the same time. Goku is simply not in a position where he can save everyone. He never was. The will of Zeno and Daishinkan are beyond his capabilities. He has to abide by what they say.

Also, according to your logic, unless every other fighter not from U9 deliberately hold back, then they are all equally as accountable and morally flawed as Goku. Goku has no more or less moral obligation to hold back against U9 than any other fighter in this tournament. And there are 80 fighters, so that's a lot of people.

Which brings me to another point. Goku could very well hold back for moral reasons, but that doesn't mean the other 70 fighters who are not from U9 will. It would be completely moot, and he would still run the risk of his own universe and six other universes getting erased. The best thing Goku can do in his position is save his own universe. That's his least risky option. And so far, he's doing a better job than other warrior from their respective universe.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Goku's flaws aren't nearly as superficial as ours. He's not relatable in the slightest. Also, I know some people who'd beg to differ on the flawless superheroes thing.

 

[RadicalMrR]

@Assult Ur assuming Goku could just gradually amp Bergamo up without the Daishinkan noticing, how are claiming Goku is able to think of this but refuse to acknowledge the guy infinitely smarter than Goku wont catch on?

Another thing u fail to notice even though Bergamo could become as strong as Goku the damage he took while doing so would stay the same so ultimately Goku would still win.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Goku is not designed based on idealism. He's a man with flaws, just like most of us here and most people you personally know in real life. Japan doesn't make highly idealized protagonists like the western world does and that's what people need to understand.

Well I think practically not caring at all about the death of decillions of innocent lives and risking mass genocide on multiple occasions for the sake of a fight go a bit beyond just "a man with flaws like most of us." More like someone who at best is moronic and shallow to the point of literal mental impairment and at worse a selfish, uncaring bastard.

This may or may not be true. But quite frankly, his attitude is probably the best attitude to have in his position. The only thing anyone can do in his position is win the fights that will save his universe. And he has the best mindset for that task. Sitting there worrying about what might happen, isn't going to change anything.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Goku's flaws aren't nearly as superficial as ours. He's not relatable in the slightest. Also, I know some people who'd beg to differ on the flawless superheroes thing.

Goku wasn't made to be relatable. Not all characters are made to be relatable. Goklu is someone who simply works for everything he earns. That's all we need to get from Goku.

 

[Ryukama]

Goku worked for everything he earned. That's why as long as Krillin and Yamcha work as hard or harder than Goku they'll be able to surpass him one day

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Melee

No need to add the "u" in my name; I left it out on purpose. But on your assertion: Goku could absolutely go all out and throw at the same time. Bergamo gains power based off of the attacks thrown at him, yet he can only increase gradually. He could have gradually powered up alongside Bergamo, giving him enough strength to stand up to max out SSBKKx10.

If Diashinkan/Zen'o had called out Goku for staying in SSJ for so long, I may have agreed with you. If they said "go all out, we know you can do more than that" then sure, he has to go straight to max. But he is told no such thing is allowed to remain in SSJ for a long time. He could have climbed his transformation ladder and fed Bergamo power, which he was already allowed to do. Bergamo almost beat out the jump from SSJ to SSBKK. If Goku had gone SSJ2/SSJ3 or even just normal SSB Bergamo probably could have contested him when he was forced to go all-out.

And no, only Goku is accountable out of the Z-Fighters. Their opponent didn't make a multiverse saving deal with Zen'o. Goku's did. If Lavender and Basil had made the same deal, then yes, they would share blame.

EDIT: On a second read it seems like you did not watch the episode.

"Which brings me to another point. Goku could very well hold back for moral reasons, but that doesn't mean the other 70 fighters who are not from U9 will. It would be completely moot, and he would still run the risk of his own universe and six other universes getting erased. The best thing Goku can do in his position is save his own universe. That's his least risky option. And so far, he's doing a better job than other warrior from their respective universe."

The other 70 fighters don't matter whatsoever here. Bergamo made a deal that if he beat Goku (not needing to beat any other fighters, just Goku) then Zen'o would rescind his decision.

"Once I have defeated this man, please rescind your rule to erase the defeated universes!"

Zen'o then accepts. If Goku threw his exhibition match against Bergamo in a convincing fashion (which I have asserted he could), literally no one dies. He disregards the notion of this altogether and acts nonchalant in the face of his condemnation of the universes via victory.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Goku worked for everything he earned. That's why as long as Krillin and Yamcha work as hard or harder than Goku they'll be able to surpass him one day

What you talkin' about? They've already surpassed him. They just haven't shown their power yet.

 

[Stonecoldstunner]

Sooooo, anyone gonna make Bergamo's profile yet ?

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Goku worked for everything he earned. That's why as long as Krillin and Yamcha work as hard or harder than Goku they'll be able to surpass him one day

Goku, as a Saiyan, has a different genetic disposition than humans. Birds have to practice flying. It would be ignorant to say they don't work for it. However, as a human, it doesn't matter how much flapping you practice. You're not gonna fly. But that shouldn't discredit the bird.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

^You missed the joke.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Sooooo, anyone gonna make Bergamo's profile yet ?

I would, but proving Goku is not evil is more important. That and no staff actually gave me an answer about what tier to place him in....

 

[Ryukama]

I'm not denying that Goku hasn't worked tremendously hard to get where he's at. But he was given a natural advantage that all the hard work in the world would never compensate for. 99% of the cast of Dragon Ball will never reach an atom of Goku's power even if they're far, far more dedicated to him.

I respect and admire how hard Goku always works in order to surpass his limits. But when he's been given so many insane advantages in life, it kinda makes the whole "super hard working underdog" schtick people like to associate Goku with a lot harder to believe in personally.

 

[Ryukama]

And I'm not saying it's a bad thing for a character to be born with extraordinary power. A big portion of my favorite fictional characters are that way. I just think people constantly acting like Goku is some Kenichi x 10 with a central theme of always surpassing your limits through hard work alone is a bit disingenous when considering how much Goku actually has over the vast majority of others.

Goku's entire character contradicts such a sentiment. If you're not Goku or a select few other people, you're useless or will soon become useless. And there's nothing you can ever hope to do about that.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I'm not denying that Goku hasn't worked tremendously hard to get where he's at. But he was given a natural advantage that all the hard work in the world would never compensate for. 99% of the cast of Dragon Ball will never reach an atom of Goku's power even if they're far, far more dedicated to him.
I respect and admire how hard Goku always works in order to surpass his limits. But when he's been given so many insane advantages in life, it kinda makes the whole "super hard working underdog" schtick people like to associate Goku with a lot harder to believe in personally.

Well even for a Saiyan he has worked incredibly hard. From low-class power to being superior to an elite. So even for his own alien race he has worked incredibly hard. From a character who had a power level of 2 to being someone who can face off with the Gods. That is some hard work. But of course this a superhuman fictional character and thus is impossible to 100% connect with. Not that you need to to like him. Heck I love Alphamon and yet I cannot relate to him/her at all XD

 

[RadicalMrR]

Ur putting way too much stock in bad writing, it makes no sense for Bergamo to hold of SSBX10 when he was having trouble with SSJ unless u want to claim the gap isnt that large between the forms.

Again even if Bergamo could stand up to SSBX10 he would still be wounded getting there, he would be so big that he couldnt see much less fight Goku(he could barely fight SSJ Goku as is) and finally he would have to have to be a better fighter than Goku because if two people are even in power it comes down to skill. Bergamo couldnt win from the start.

 

[Ryukama]

Well even for a Saiyan he has worked incredibly hard. From low-class power to being superior to an elite. So even for his own alien race he has worked incredibly hard. From a character who had a power level of 2 to being someone who can face off with the Gods.

But then you realize Goku is the son of the legendary warrior of prophecy and was trained by gods more times than you can count on your hand

oVo

 

[SomebodyData]

I see

 

[Ryukama]

I see

No you don't.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Melee
No need to add the "u" in my name; I left it out on purpose. But on your assertion: Goku could absolutely go all out and throw at the same time. Bergamo gains power based off of the attacks thrown at him, yet he can only increase gradually. He could have gradually powered up alongside Bergamo, giving him enough strength to stand up to max out SSBKKx10.

If Diashinkan/Zen'o had called out Goku for staying in SSJ for so long, I may have agreed with you. If they said "go all out, we know you can do more than that" then sure, he has to go straight to max. But he is told no such thing is allowed to remain in SSJ for a long time. He could have climbed his transformation ladder and fed Bergamo power, which he was already allowed to do. Bergamo almost beat out the jump from SSJ to SSBKK. If Goku had gone SSJ2/SSJ3 or even just normal SSB Bergamo probably could have contested him when he was forced to go all-out.

And no, only Goku is accountable out of the Z-Fighters. Their opponent didn't make a multiverse saving deal with Zen'o. Goku's did. If Lavender and Basil had made the same deal, then yes, they would share blame.

First of all, that is something you made up. It's not made clear whether Bergamo needs to gain power gradually, or whether he simply has a limit to how much power he can absorb. If it's the latter, then Bergamo's lose was inevitable. The latter is the much more likely case as they've done this sort of thing before (Goku beating Yakon).

And you're misineterpreting the conditions. Goku can hold back for strategic reason. If he's holding back in order to conserve energy, or to feel his opponent out, or to even play around (which he typically does all those things), then that's legit. What can't happen is, he can't be suspected of deliberately throwing the match out of fear of being erased. That's a different thing entirely. Holding back for strategic reason, or to simply play around, doesn't imply intent on throwing a match. As long as Daishinkan doesn't suspect that he's deliberately trying to lose, then Goku can do whatever he wants in the ring.

And no. It doesn't matter who made the deal. What matters is what the deal is, and the deal is, Universe 9 has to win the Tournament of Power. So Goku is no more morally obligated to hold back than any other fighter that's not from Universe 9. And if Goku is the only one holding back, then he runs a huge risk of having his own universe being erased.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Melee

Why wouldn't Goku just power up gradually against Bergamo? At least jump to SSB just to test the waters. He used a max power Kamehameha in SSBKK (maybe x10) against a guy just starting to hold his own against SSJ. The fact that Bergamo survived it is borderline PIS.

Also what has lead you to thinking the deal means the whole Tournament? Bergamo says "Once I have defeated this man, please rescind your rule to erase the defeated universes!" Zen'o accepts this proposition. Is this not referring to the exhibition match? If it isn't why is Goku concerned with showing how he went all out in the exhibition, even stating how he is going all-out and then showing off his max power? He even says he how didn't hold back after the fight ended. THEIR fight. The fight between Bergamo and Goku upon which the deal is made.

What gives the implication that Bergamo must win the entire tournament of power? A tournament which, at the time, the rules of which had not even been established in yet?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Let's not quote long blocks of text...


@Ryu ......I have no counter to that....XD

 

[Ryukama]

I still have nothing against Goku and really love him. I just disagree with some aspects of his character.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I still have nothing against Goku and really love him. I just disagree with some aspects of his character.

Same with me as well.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Unless Goku knows something we don't I won't be OK with this. I already thought he crazy enough for letting Cell and Buu live.

On another note, we got evidence that no one has brought up yet that supports the theory that the whole destruction of the universes is just a bluff: Why is killing banned? If the losers will be Cntl-Alt-Dlted anyway, why would killing them be against the rules? If they die they just go to their universe's Otherworld and await the likely erasure of their universe. Unless of course this is just another arbitrary rule to make the Z-Fighters look as pure as possible.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assalt

You're right. I probably misunderstood the deal Bergamo made.

Regardless, what you wanted from Goku requires him to have intent on losing. If he has any intent like that at all, he runs the risk of showing it, which would result in everyone getting erased.

Hell, I'm willing to bet if Goku later did say he tried to throw the match, people would say he was reckless and evil, because he risked having all the universes get erased when he could have saved at least one. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So I made it. How do you guys feel about it?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Bergamo

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Dragon

Do you think he deserves a "Possibly 3-A" tier. I mean he did sorta tank a SSBx10 Kamehameha.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Why is his durability justified with a scale to Buu? Did he ever fight Buu? I don't remember him doing so.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Oops let me fix that...

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assalt

Not all losers are going to die. An individual fighter can lose, but his team still wins. If killing was allowed, then there would potentially be fighters that end up dying, but their universe still wins.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Anyway.....ummm...How does one add images to the Verse page?...It isn't a normal gallery....

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Melee

But he could have let the Wolfgang Penetrator hit him. It was almost going to before he pushed it back again. Even if he wanted to do the massive jump straight to SSBKK from SSJ he could have at least done that. He already ran the risk of getting all universes destroyed by fighting him so long in SSJ. If Daishinkan had really wanted to he could have said that feeding him SSJ power was clearly not going all-out and ended it there. Goku literally handled every aspect of the fight in the worst way possible lol

EDIT: Well so what if the victorious universe has some causalities? If they are OK with universal genocide then why do several more bodies make a difference? Besides, they would just go to Otherworld, which isn't the worst thing.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Welp Ryu fixed so that he's 3-A. I just didn't want to risk it.

 

[Ryukama]

If we're scaling Bergamo to someone who is at this point much, much stronger than a 3-A, then there is no reason to not make Bergamo 3-A.

Of course if we're discarding the fact that he was able to fight off SSB KK x 10's blast as hax or PIS or something like that, fine. But if his tier gets based on scaling to a 3-A, the tier itself should be listed as 3-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Something about his stats seem very off to me...

Also, inb4 he instantly becomes in the top 20 most clicked characters literally overnight.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

@Assalt

He didn't run any risk being in SSJ, because he didn't hold back with the intent on losing. He always starts the fight slow in order to not waste energy, get a feel for his opponent, and/or to play around.

Letting Bergamo hit him with the Wolfgang Penetrator would imply intent on losing, and that's a risk. Quite frankly, I think Daishinkan is too intelligent and too familiar with martial arts for Goku to decieve. And Goku might be aware of this. In other words, Goku trying to lose on the low-key, would be to take Daishinkan as a fool, which Goku doesn't.