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Dragon Ball shared worldview

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MeiouHades said:
Every verse" is not our concern here. If you think there are other verses that can provide equivalent or superior evidence for something like this then by all means make a CRT for them.
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I’m not the one making the claim. I am pointing out that this supposed evidence for a shared world view is extremely common in fiction.

Most fictions just need a single author statement that everything is pretty much canon in one form or another.

This seems like a generally convoluted way of getting past the fact that the creator never made or wanted to say such a statement.

MeiouHades said:
Sure, and we've included provisions within the CRT and in latter arguments to deal with any such changes in the future as well. Like I said, this leaves massive rooms for any and all contradictions to be dealt with case-by-case without having to make any blanket, incorrect statements that fly against evidence we presented. That's the best way to deal with them.
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You’re putting the cart before the horse. These are not contradictions. These are story differences between different series of the same franchise. Something that is common among all franchises and inevitable for a major franchise like dragon ball with multiple iterations.

MeiouHades said:
The goal of this thread is to establish a composited cosmology, nothing more and nothing less.
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if this wiki doesn’t allow for the creation of comp character profiles, why would a comp cosmology be okay?

The exact same issues apply.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I’m not the one making the claim. I am pointing out that this supposed evidence for a shared world view is extremely common in fiction.
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And....? Its commonality with other fictional works is neither a concern of ours nor a reason for it to not work. It's a non-argument.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Most fictions just need a single author statement that everything is pretty much canon in one form or another.
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Again, non-argument. And yeah, we have that statement too but in order to not mess everything up we're not just gonna canonize everything.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
This seems like a generally convoluted way of getting past the fact that the creator never made or wanted to say such a statement.
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What part of Toyotaro and Torishima repeatedly mentioning that there is no strict canon or continuity, with Torishima going as far as laughing at the term itself when explained to him, tells you that the creator never made or wanted to say such a statement? Bad faith arguments will not be entertained. If you have something worthwhile to say, please only reply with that.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
You’re putting the cart before the horse. These are not contradictions. These are story differences between different series of the same franchise. Something that is common among all franchises and inevitable for a major franchise like dragon ball with multiple iterations.
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And that is different from what we said how exactly....? At the end of the day these still do bring some contradictions be it narrative-level contradiction or different versions of the same character altogether. None of that however prevents what we said earlier. We know what these "different stories" and "different series" are and we have outright confirmation from creators as well Toriyama himself on how these are to be viewed or treated. What else is there left to discuss?
Iamunanimousinthat said:
if this wiki doesn’t allow for the creation of comp character profiles
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Wrong, it does actually allow this as long as the character actually exists and is different enough somewhat. DBH Goku is basically a pseudo-composite Goku.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
why would a comp cosmology be okay?
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Non-argument once again, composite cosmologies are extremely common on the wiki and even shared elements are especially with larger franchises with multiple iterations. We literally mention in the thread itself that this used to be accepted with Dragon Ball not too long ago but with different (weaker) evidence. This is proof that you aren't reading the thread, only arguing for the sake of it.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
The exact same issues apply.
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There are no "issues" here, majority of the "issues" you highlighted are whataboutisms and non-arguments while the rest are a complete misreading of the statements that were linked.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
if this wiki doesn’t allow for the creation of comp character profiles, why would a comp cosmology be okay?

The exact same issues apply.
Click to expand...
I'll drop in in saying that exceptions can indeed be made if the franchise in itself has the authors believing that different medias are just ways to show different parts of the same world. We had a pretty long conversation about this in Pokémon after all, so we do have a precedent (and if you think that you can try splitting the Pokémon canons, then good luck lol).

It's not remotely the same as saying that (for example) Link from TLoZ should be composited despite the fact that the narrative makes it painfully clear that each series' Link is its own different incarnation that cannot be the same as other ones, here we talk about how the authors shape the world of their universe through different stories.

My opinion regarding the DB case? Well, duh, the writers clearly don't care of the word "canon" remotely, they always have treated the world as being the same across the different series (as the main concepts of the DB world are pretty much the same no matter how radically different the media is), as show time to time by them always referencing stuff from different mediums in the main ones (example being GT being stated to be a "what-if story" from Toriyama or it being included in the Dr. Slump manga), so the DB cosmology being the exact same across medias is pretty much how both the writers and the fandom as a large treat it, we splitting them is just the typical VBW-ism scrutinity that overrules the overall context.

"But the retcons!" yeah Dragon Ball was never the most consistent verse ever, it rectons itself already in the same medium, and self-contradictions are always bound to happen in franchises this large, Marvel and DC being the prime examples of this, yet we don't say that each comic storyline should be in its own separate cosmology, come on now.
 
MeiouHades said:
Wrong, it does actually allow this as long as the character actually exists and is different enough somewhat. DBH Goku is basically a pseudo-composite Goku.
Click to expand...
MeiouHades said:
There are no "issues" here, majority of the "issues" you highlighted are whataboutisms and non-arguments while the rest are a complete misreading of the statements that were linked.
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The issue is a composite cosmology doesn’t exist and you want to create one from thin air.

MeiouHades said:
What part of Toyotaro and Torishima repeatedly mentioning that there is no strict canon or continuity, with Torishima going as far as laughing at the term itself when explained to him, tells you that the creator never made or wanted to say such a statement? Bad faith arguments will not be entertained. If you have something worthwhile to say, please only reply with that.
Click to expand...

How is pointing out that the creators never made a statement saying everything is canon a bad faith argument? I am not understanding this counter argument.

How is them laughing at the concept of canon evidence that a composite cosmology exists?
 
StrymULTRA said:
My opinion regarding the DB case? Well, duh, the writers clearly don't care of the word "canon" remotely, they always have treated the world as being the same across the different series (as the main concepts of the DB world are pretty much the same no matter how radically different the media is), as show time to time by them always referencing stuff from different mediums in the main ones (example being GT being stated to be a "what-if story" from Toriyama or it being included in the Dr. Slump manga), so the DB cosmology being the exact same across medias is pretty much how both the writers and the fandom as a large treat it, we splitting them is just the typical VBW-ism scrutinity that overrules the overall context.
Click to expand...

I don’t this is accurate because they clearly change things about how the world works for the sake of telling a good story.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
The issue is a composite cosmology doesn’t exist and you want to create one from thin air.
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Yet you haven't brought forth a single argument besides saying this is common in fiction. Okay? If supporters of said verses have the evidence to warrant such an upgrade. Than by all means. But dont associate that with us. We do not care, nor is it any of our concern.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
How is pointing out that the creators never made a statement saying everything is canon a bad faith argument? I am not understanding this counter argument.

How is them laughing at the concept of canon evidence that a composite cosmology exists?
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Its bad faith because you aren't actually addressing any of the scans or interviews in question. Don't turn this into a page long back and forth if you won't engage in an actual debate.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I don’t this is accurate because they clearly change things about how the world works for the sake of telling a good story.
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What you think doesn't overrule how the authors do things. It's up to them to decide what to do with their fictional universe, and if you don't like it, you can go challenge Toyotaro in court.

Besides, it's not even only Dragon Ball the only verse that does this, literally every multi-media franchise that is decades old has this thing, but we just accept the inevitable retcons that are always bound to happen given that the franchise has to evolve and all. We can't just say "**** no, you don't decide what's canon" to the owners of the IP, that'd be silly.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
The issue is a composite cosmology doesn’t exist and you want to create one from thin air.
Click to expand...
The sheer emotional labor I'm having to do to take you seriously after this lmao We are providing evidence that one exists and showing you exactly how and also how the creators have viewed this for a while. If you want to pretend that it doesn't, then that's a different thing, it's not my job to appease to your biases nor am I going to entertain them further.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
How is pointing out that the creators never made a statement saying everything is canon a bad faith argument? I am not understanding this counter argument.
Click to expand...
The guy literally says everything is canon, verbatim, word for word. I don't know what else to do with someone who suddenly stops reading.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
How is them laughing at the concept of canon evidence that a composite cosmology exists?
Click to expand...
Laughing isn't, but them saying that there's no strict continuity or canon (and Toyotaro also saying that everything is canon) is right there, however you're moving the goalposts. I'm not saying that that alone is evidence of a composite cosmology, I'm using that to show everyone why strictly separate continuities with no shared elements is an outdated and false idea and I'm bringing back evidence we already did have from Toriyama (both old and new) to show what this could mean regarding the cosmology. Is that clear enough for you?
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
He literally does not.



He does say it’s not his role to decide what is canon.
Click to expand...

Iam, we literally explained how Torishima also shared the same views that canon is irrelevant. Toriyama's literal editor has said that Toriyama did not care about canon, that he only made stories for the fans to enjoy while expanding the world in any continuity. Obviously Toyotaro is talking about stories and characters for things he has no decision on. Like for example, if he were to make cooler part of the main continuity or whoever else. Please read the ENTIRE crt before coming to these half baked conclusions. We went through and explained every single statement yet you still misinterpret them and only read what you want to read. I mean hell, he's writing the story, he added literal characters from anime exclusive showings.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
He does say it’s not his role to decide what is canon.
Click to expand...
Well except he's the author, and he even says to "create your own canon" (which I'm not going to get into here). He still gets to decide and have a say in it way more than you or anyone else does. That's a weird way to to dance around the statement that you said allegedly didn't exist I showed you that it does. In any case, since all of your concerns have been addressed and debunked I'll dismiss your "arguments" entirely. It's also kinda funny how your imgur link says "Everything is not canon" while the statement says the exact opposite.... I mean the irony is so thick I could cut it with a knife. That's basically the crux of your argument, you don't think this is true just because.... It's not worth addressing
 
TiltedFN said:
Iam, we literally explained how Torishima also shared the same views that canon is irrelevant. Toriyama's literal editor has said that Toriyama did not care about canon, that he only made stories for the fans to enjoy while expanding the world in any continuity. Obviously Toyotaro is talking about stories and characters for things he has no decision on. Like for example, if he were to make cooler part of the main continuity or whoever else. Please read the ENTIRE crt before coming to these half baked conclusions. We went through and explained every single statement yet you still misinterpret them and only read what you want to read. I mean hell, he's writing the story, he added literal characters from anime exclusive showings.
Click to expand...

Okay. I am(unanimous) out.

There is no reason to constantly claim I didn’t read your OP. People can understand where you are coming from and what your arguments are without agreeing with your conclusion.

You have not provided any concrete evidence dragonball has a shared composite cosmology other than wishful thinking. Maybe that’s enough for this site. Who knows. Good luck!

MeiouHades said:
That's a weird way to to dance around the statement that you said allegedly didn't exist I showed you that it does. In any case, since all of your concerns have been addressed and debunked I'll dismiss your "arguments" entirely.
Click to expand...

How am I dancing around? You made the claim that I didn’t read the OP and that Totoroyo said everything is canon. I in fact did read the OP and have showed you that you have misquoted what he said and he doesn’t make the claim you have said he made.

You haven’t debunked anything. You just insult my intelligence for not agreeing with your reasoning.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Okay. I am(unanimous) out.

There is no reason to constantly claim I didn’t read your OP. People can understand where you are coming from and what your arguments are without agreeing with your conclusion.

You have not provided any concrete evidence dragonball has a shared composite cosmology other than wishful thinking. Maybe that’s enough for this site. Who knows. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Goodbye! Coulda done this sooner!
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Okay. I am(unanimous) out.

There is no reason to constantly claim I didn’t read your OP. People can understand where you are coming from and what your arguments are without agreeing with your conclusion.

You have not provided any concrete evidence dragonball has a shared composite cosmology other than wishful thinking. Maybe that’s enough for this site. Who knows. Good luck!
Click to expand...

images
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Okay. I am(unanimous) out.

There is no reason to constantly claim I didn’t read your OP. People can understand where you are coming from and what your arguments are without agreeing with your conclusion.

You have not provided any concrete evidence dragonball has a shared composite cosmology other than wishful thinking. Maybe that’s enough for this site. Who knows. Good luck!
Click to expand...
This is an extremly common tactic you employ. You disagree with something, your opponent mildly disagrees with you and brings better evidence, and you proceed to throw the blame on the entire site or some always elusive cabal of detractors. You can just say, "No, I don't agree" or "Yeah, you're right."
Iamunanimousinthat said:
How am I dancing around? You made the claim that I didn’t read the OP and that Totoroyo said everything is canon. I in fact did read the OP and have showed you that you have misquoted what he said and he doesn’t make the claim you have said he made.

You haven’t debunked anything. You just insult my intelligence for not agreeing with your reasoning.
Click to expand...
Doesn't take much I guess.
 
LegendariumOfLies said:
This is an extremly common tactic you employ. You disagree with something, your opponent mildly disagrees with you and brings better evidence, and you proceed to throw the blame on the entire site or some always elusive cabal of detractors. You can just say, "No, I don't agree" or "Yeah, you're right."

Doesn't take much I guess.
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I remember someone pointing out they made a spite db downgrade thread bc of like sailor moon downgrades or something i found it pretty funny
 
Treeztarz said:
I remember someone pointing out they made a spite db downgrade thread bc of like sailor moon downgrades or something i found it pretty funny
Click to expand...
Allegedly made a spite downgrade. It was never confirmed it was spite, but yeah, here's the thread.
vsbattles.com

Dragon Ball Franchise AP Downgrade

Hi everyone! This is a crt thread to downgrade the Dragonball Franchise. This thread will debunk Tier 1. Currently, all tier 1 ratings in Dragonball come from the hyper timeline argument. This thread will show that the hyper timeline doesn't exist and is contradicted by the show. 1. The basis...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
LegendariumOfLies said:
This is an extremly common tactic you employ. You disagree with something, your opponent mildly disagrees with you and brings better evidence, and you proceed to throw the blame on the entire site or some always elusive cabal of detractors. You can just say, "No, I don't agree" or "Yeah, you're right."
Click to expand...

Silly me! I should keep engaging with people who resort to ad hominems rather than actual addressing my argument even though I provided evidence that what they were claiming was objectively wrong.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Silly me! I should keep engaging with people who resort to ad hominems rather than actual addressing my argument even though I provided evidence that what they were claiming was objectively wrong.
Click to expand...
Can you point where @MeiouHades or @TiltedFN resorted to ad hominems in this thread? They have been pretty civil in responding to your arguments even though you have a reputation of being anatgonistic towards them and Dragon Ball. Furthermore, how does any of this prove VSBW have a Pro-DB Bias?
 
With all do respect, it’s not people bickering at each other, its random users trying to antagonize me for saying I didn’t want to engage in a post anymore after being accused multiple times of not reading the OP. (Which is just uncalled for)

Another user posted that they disagree and that spawned a chain of users quoting them with silly gifs.

If this how any opposing non-staff opinion gets treated then no one will ever want to voice contrary opinions for this verse.
 
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