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It seems like this void isn't truly timeless.Assaltwaffle said:
Please check here for further information: Timeless Voids Standards
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Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse Infinite speed
- Thread starter Zenkaibattery1
- Start date
- Status
Please check here for further information: Timeless Voids Standards
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Can we please stop saying that because a lot of people agree with infinite speed, it should be accepted?
That's textbook argumentum ad populum fallacy.
That's textbook argumentum ad populum fallacy.
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The only thing i said is that we don't close this thread due to the agreement of a lot of people for the OP, even if other disagree with this, it's not a reason to close this when it's still debatable.
And the "Consistent" Argument is also pretty bad, this just seem to be "It's dragon ball"
Anyway, neutral as the last time, i wait more about the void feat and others
And the "Consistent" Argument is also pretty bad, this just seem to be "It's dragon ball"
Anyway, neutral as the last time, i wait more about the void feat and others
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How is asking for any other consistent showings if Infinite speed, or supporting feats, bad?
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@Shadow We can't agree on infinite speed because its somehow a fallacy when quite a lot of reliable evidence already been provided....?
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What reliable evidence????
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You must have not read @Zenkai's links he provided (the very first thing you look at in this thread), @SSBXeno links, and @Melis links my guyTheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
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I might as well give a review of the timeless voids standards requirements and how the Demon Realm is qualified to be a true void: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Timeless_Voids_Standards
"The realm should be consistently and reliably described as timeless by knowledgeable characters who can be confirmed not to be lying or bluffing."
Check. I noticed that in the context that "reliably" was linked to the statements page & there are various provided statements here that justifies the demon realm to be timeless and it seems that nobody here has provided any counter-evidence to disprove these statements so far as to rather just only disprove it by give opinionated responses based on their viewpoint instead (what....?). That's an improper way to defend your claim in an argument and I don't really need to explain that tbh.
"The realm should display characteristics a realm without time would be expected to have, such as the lack of a visible passage of time, unless this is Cinematic Time."
Check.
"Although not necessary per se, and not entirely accurate either, the characters who traverse it being described as "beyond the space-time" or "beyond time" would be supporting evidence."
According to this, the requirement for this one isn't 100% accurate and its unecessary anyways as the Demon Realm already fits the first 2 requirements for the standards.
"The realm should be consistently and reliably described as timeless by knowledgeable characters who can be confirmed not to be lying or bluffing."
Check. I noticed that in the context that "reliably" was linked to the statements page & there are various provided statements here that justifies the demon realm to be timeless and it seems that nobody here has provided any counter-evidence to disprove these statements so far as to rather just only disprove it by give opinionated responses based on their viewpoint instead (what....?). That's an improper way to defend your claim in an argument and I don't really need to explain that tbh.
"The realm should display characteristics a realm without time would be expected to have, such as the lack of a visible passage of time, unless this is Cinematic Time."
Check.
"Although not necessary per se, and not entirely accurate either, the characters who traverse it being described as "beyond the space-time" or "beyond time" would be supporting evidence."
According to this, the requirement for this one isn't 100% accurate and its unecessary anyways as the Demon Realm already fits the first 2 requirements for the standards.
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- Thread starter
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The scans posted by @Mel is also supporting evidence. Wondering outside the flow of time forever and demigra being sealed outside of time + the demon realm having no time and not even apart of history. Goku being forbidden to use ssj4 because he would affect time and yet in a place with no time he was allowed to use it
The statements are reliable because they're by the goddess of time and members of the demon realm. Why would they say it's without time if it wasn't?
There has literally been no counter argument.
The statements are reliable because they're by the goddess of time and members of the demon realm. Why would they say it's without time if it wasn't?
There has literally been no counter argument.
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What people would like to add up for evidence is a concrete difference between the Demon Realm and any other part of the universe.
Such as: "What would happen if someone without infinite speed stood there?" How would character perceive time there?" And so on.
I already disagree with this being either "inconsistent" or "an outlier". And it's not just one vague statement like the WoV.
Such as: "What would happen if someone without infinite speed stood there?" How would character perceive time there?" And so on.
I already disagree with this being either "inconsistent" or "an outlier". And it's not just one vague statement like the WoV.
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"Difference between demon realm and any other universe"
>Ssj4 being forbidden because it would affect time >Chronoa saying he can use it in the demon realm because there's no time to be affected
Also, that question can be applied to literally any verse
>Ssj4 being forbidden because it would affect time >Chronoa saying he can use it in the demon realm because there's no time to be affected
Also, that question can be applied to literally any verse
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That comparison doesn't really work since weaker, non-high tier characters never actually fully traversed through the Demon Realm as it's not really a location characters go to. The only clear-cut instances of traversing through the Demon Realm is by Higher-Tier characters. We shouldn't deny upgrades just because of a "What if" situation that can be applied to any other verse as well.
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Why possibly? OP and other stuff given is explicitly straight forward, with a lot of agreement from staff and non staff with no counter argument given as to WHY it isn't a true void
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@Antvasima Yea, we will be patiently waiting for any counter-evidence to be provided here in their explanation against the upgrade in the meantime.
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The Demon Gods Orginated from a Void without time. I do agree that is infinite speed worthy, but people are ignoring/forgetting a(about a) major issue here. The Demon Gods are Consistently shown to get tagged by beings that DID NOT ORGINATE FROM A TIMELESS VOID, and being that had no showings of infinite speed, or supporting evidence of it.
Isn't Dabura a Demon God too, iirc?
2.) Chronoa using a Time stop/freeze on Mira, and supposedly mira escapes. That scan is a balatant misinformation. Mira escaped because he shown RESISTANCE to it by his Ki. it was AFTER he escaped that he charged trunks. This is not infinite speed, but RESISTANCE TO TIME STOP/TIME FREEZE.
I see nothing suggesting that Infinite Speed is something that is consistently done in the DBH verse. If there is any other supporting evidence. Please post them. I am currently aganist this until someone can change my mind.
Isn't Dabura a Demon God too, iirc?
2.) Chronoa using a Time stop/freeze on Mira, and supposedly mira escapes. That scan is a balatant misinformation. Mira escaped because he shown RESISTANCE to it by his Ki. it was AFTER he escaped that he charged trunks. This is not infinite speed, but RESISTANCE TO TIME STOP/TIME FREEZE.
I see nothing suggesting that Infinite Speed is something that is consistently done in the DBH verse. If there is any other supporting evidence. Please post them. I am currently aganist this until someone can change my mind.
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I'm pretty sure anyone who fought with a Demon God is a God-tier character in the series, and who also gain infinite speed because of that.TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
Dabura is the Demon King in the canon series.
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The Demon World is never explained in the canon series so Dabura being born from there doesn't mean anything.
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TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
1: They are being Tagged by Xeno Characters who can across space and time instantly. So them being tagged doesn't mean it is not infinity spewd but the opposition is that strong and fast, in a battle between two beings of infinite speed both would cancel each other out and the one with greater reaction speed would win the infinite speed battle which is what happens consistently. They exist as energy and can be at multiple points in time and space at the same time. All the while existing in their own timeless void free from the confines of time.
2:How is this misinformation? It says no where Mira resisted timestop. This isn't some sort of timeskip this is the divine power from the Goddess who controls,creates and embodies time and timeline. The only misinformation is you saying that Mira is resisting it using ki when that was never stated. Trunks even made a statement of how it was instant.
3: There are multiple instances of Xenoverse characters just flying through multidimensional space/time to help out the time patroller whenever he needs it, especially when in a pinch.
4: You still glossed over the statement of the Demon realm not having time and being outside time's laws and effect and demon gods existing as pure energy. Who can exist even after being absorbed and destroyed (Towa)
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First statement: Refers to the Kaioshin being sealed outside the multiverse and the timelines. Not outside the concept of time itself.Melis125 said:
Second statement:The second has the guy being banished to outside the timeline.
The Demon Realm has some elements of a void but not enough to give Infinite speed.
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I thought in xenoverse, or maybe DBH Dabura was said to be related to towa somehow? And no I'm not going to relate it to canon DB if people were confused by that.
The drmongods fought a lot of people. They even have been speed blitzed, and surprised before. If demon God A fought characters X at full power and serious. Then anyone who fought character X at full power and serious gets scaled too.
This is all probably poorly phrased Because I'm busy atm.
The drmongods fought a lot of people. They even have been speed blitzed, and surprised before. If demon God A fought characters X at full power and serious. Then anyone who fought character X at full power and serious gets scaled too.
This is all probably poorly phrased Because I'm busy atm.
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First statement: Refers to the Kaioshin being sealed outside the multiverse and the timelines. Not outside the concept of time itself.
Second statement:The second has the guy being banished to outside the timeline.
The Demon Realm has some elements of a void but not enough to give Infinite speed.
There is no mention of multiverse or timelines in the first statement. The Xenoverse is already above the multiverse and timeline and Heros is above and beyond that.
They are beyond the concept of time itself. Cause that is what is saying in the scan, not beyond the multiverse or beyond all the timelines or beyond history, but beyond time. The Demon realm is sealed and it is sealed against time. Time not existing there is part of the power that come from existing in that world and the Demon gods try to work beyond that using the restrictions they have.
Again
https://m.imgur.com/a/sQbLra1
Xeno Goku can only go ssj4 in the Demon realm because time doesn't exist other wise he is not allowed to go ssj4 because he cause Time to rupture. Not timeline not multiverse. Just time and the concept of time itself.
The speed feats he show while in ssj4, blitzing timeless being is because he is equally that fast and warps time around himself.
Second statement:The second has the guy being banished to outside the timeline.
The Demon Realm has some elements of a void but not enough to give Infinite speed.
There is no mention of multiverse or timelines in the first statement. The Xenoverse is already above the multiverse and timeline and Heros is above and beyond that.
They are beyond the concept of time itself. Cause that is what is saying in the scan, not beyond the multiverse or beyond all the timelines or beyond history, but beyond time. The Demon realm is sealed and it is sealed against time. Time not existing there is part of the power that come from existing in that world and the Demon gods try to work beyond that using the restrictions they have.
Again
https://m.imgur.com/a/sQbLra1
Xeno Goku can only go ssj4 in the Demon realm because time doesn't exist other wise he is not allowed to go ssj4 because he cause Time to rupture. Not timeline not multiverse. Just time and the concept of time itself.
The speed feats he show while in ssj4, blitzing timeless being is because he is equally that fast and warps time around himself.
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When ever they refer to the multiverse or timelines, they say "world". This is evident through literally all of Heroes
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Zenkaibattery1 said:
Not just heros, all of Dragon Ball refers multiverses and all possible timelines of the Multiverse as Sekai.
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I agree with the upgrade still like I did before since they can clearly move in a timeless void and even naturally exist in one when it comes to demons such as the demon realm and crack in time. Not to mention several other reasons that a speed upgrade is accurate which I will not get into now as I am busy with exams. I will certainly revisit the topic in the future with even further proof if it isn't already passed here, which honestly this is enough anyway.
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@Matthew
"First statement: Refers to the Kaioshin being sealed outside the multiverse and the timelines. Not outside the concept of time itself."
You can't exist outside both the multiverse itself and all of its timelines & still be bounded to the concept of time since you will be existing in a void of nothingness and therefore, be outside the flow of time which is another way of saying you are outside the concept of time. Time is always a concept, not some dimension, just leaving this reminder here.
You might as well say "existing in all types of voids are not considered timeless, even though you may exist outside the multiverse & its timelines, you are still bounded to time itself as a default with no exception" which nobody would take that route, mind you.
"Second statement:The second has the guy being banished to outside the timeline."
Okay, and your explanation for this is?
"The Demon Realm has some elements of a void but not enough to give Infinite speed."
It has various elements of a true void backing it up and yes, it would be enough to give infinite speed which is dependent on the specific characters who displayed such feats.
"First statement: Refers to the Kaioshin being sealed outside the multiverse and the timelines. Not outside the concept of time itself."
You can't exist outside both the multiverse itself and all of its timelines & still be bounded to the concept of time since you will be existing in a void of nothingness and therefore, be outside the flow of time which is another way of saying you are outside the concept of time. Time is always a concept, not some dimension, just leaving this reminder here.
You might as well say "existing in all types of voids are not considered timeless, even though you may exist outside the multiverse & its timelines, you are still bounded to time itself as a default with no exception" which nobody would take that route, mind you.
"Second statement:The second has the guy being banished to outside the timeline."
Okay, and your explanation for this is?
"The Demon Realm has some elements of a void but not enough to give Infinite speed."
It has various elements of a true void backing it up and yes, it would be enough to give infinite speed which is dependent on the specific characters who displayed such feats.
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Have you inspected the Timeless Voids Standards page?
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@Antvasima Yes, I left responses of the requirements I quoted from the page.
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I think that it is best to contact all of the relevant staff members that you can find in the Knowledgeable Members List and the Dragon Ball verse page and ask them to comment here.
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