Dragon Ball Heroes Revision: Time

[Vietthai96]

Anyway, the revision is pretty simple:

Vietthai96/sandbox11

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the soon to be blog (if it is accepted), all the arguments and what i want to propose are inside it, read care fully everyone ^^

Also small buff for Time Power's NEP Erasure, since it can erase a realm that devoid the concept of time and space, NEP Erasure will also be able to affect Aspect 2 Conceptual Nonexistent, Nuature of NEP still the same which is Type 1

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright from a glance.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Simple agree.

 

[Irineu]

As I said in a previous topic, I agree.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I agree.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I agree with the OP.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Looks alright from a glance.

Well, I think this also affects the great Zen'ō, since he can erase the entire multiverse, and that scan there is talking about the time room and another space-time related to GT, which both have the same cosmology, technically this will affect Zen'ō.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Well, I think this also affects the great Zen'ō, since he can erase the entire multiverse, and that scan there is talking about the time room and another space-time related to GT, which both have the same cosmology, technically this will affect Zen'ō.

No. This thread is only about DBH. Don't derail, thanks.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

No. This thread is only about DBH. Don't derail, thanks.

Actually yes, since both things are related to the canon verse and this scan is simply from the canon verse, I'm not derailing, I'm just saying that if this thing passes Zen'ō should also receive this, since he can affect these places without concept of time or space.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, I think this also affects the great Zen'ō, since he can erase the entire multiverse, and that scan there is talking about the time room and another space-time related to GT, which both have the same cosmology, technically this will affect Zen'ō.

Actually yes, since both things are related to the canon verse and this scan is simply from the canon verse, I'm not derailing, I'm just saying that if this thing passes Zen'ō should also receive this, since he can affect these places without concept of time or space.

No, simple as that, because this is DBH, and thing from DBH do not exist in DB canon, similar cosmology do not grant anything, Zeno erase timeline simply is just EE feat, nothing more, now please kindly do not bring this up anymore. Just because i use a scan from canon, doesn't mean anything

Edit: Also mind you, even game Zeno do not receive anything, let alone canon Zeno

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Can Time Energy and alteration to Time do any of the following below? The ones that are bolded and underlined are the important parts of the quotes.

These quotes are from DontTalk

Those aren't two separate definitions. It's two parts of the same definition. A Type 1 Concept has to be independent of reality and be a source of a property to those things that participate in them.

I'm not sure why you assume concepts can't participate in other concepts due to this definition. They don't have to be independent of other concepts, but from the governed reality i.e. the actual world. See this in contrast to Type 2 where alteration of every object governed can cause alteration of the concept.

Also, just in case, will point out that time, space and causality aren't concepts in themselves. They are actual non-abstract things. There are separate concepts of time, space and causality.

Concept Manip Type 1's Misaligned Definition

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation is defined as: 1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it...

vsbattles.com

"However, concepts should be... general... to use a vague term. Concepts, in our usage of them, are to laws of nature, what laws of nature are to matter. They are the cause of the laws, in a certain sense, and dictate how they work. Or perhaps it would be better to say they are the cause of the properties of the objects which dictate, based on the laws, how things work."DontTalk (DT)


"Changing the property of a flame to make it cold mean you change the property "being hot" into the property "being cold". Meanwhile, concept manip would take the property "being hot" and let the flame remain hot. Instead, it would make it so that things that are hot behave like being cold.
If inverting gravity is gravity manipulation, but changing the nature of gravity is law manipultion, then inverting a property should be property manipulation, but changing the nature of the property itself would be concept manipulation. That might be a good way to put it." -DT


"I mean, we could change Type 3 to that if everyone prefers, but I see quite a big difference between changing the property of something and changing the nature of the property (i.e. concept) itself. One thing affects the object, the other thing affects the property. The target is different. As said, like the difference between manipulating gravity and changing the nature of gravity itself.
As long as it's separated it probably isn't vastly important what it is listed as, but separated it should be." - DT

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

Hello All, The topic of this discussion is in regards to how we treat conceptual manipulation and is sort of stemming from the current JjK hax revisions thread, and this incomplete thread discussing some of the concepts I am touching upon today. Essentially, we don't really have an avenue...

vsbattles.com

Thing is, all of this could also apply for type 3. Type 2 is more for concepts that aren't just abstractions of a single thing and more for concepts that grant a property to reality at large (like "circleness" making all circles round.) Ichibe seems to deal more with individual names of people.
Like, changing the name Yhwach probably affected nobody else that was named Yhwach besides his target.

What to rank name based manipulations as? (Mostly Clash of Hexennacht, mentions Bleach and Medaka Box as precedence cases)

So, Clash of Hexennacht has a few users with the ability to mess with names. Specifically, they currently list the following: Conceptual Manipulation (Witches are capable of controlling names, names are the definition of things in themselves, and things exist because of names. Witches can...

vsbattles.com

The below quote is from Ultima

Conceptual Manipulation as a power just boils down to "Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result," and Type 1 just adds the requirement that this essence must also exist independently from the physical world. Both of those are things that Dreams in Chrono very much fit the bill for. So, manipulating them is either Conceptual Manipulation or something that in the end is functionally identical.

Chrono Revisions (Lavos, Dreams, AP)

So the Chrono profiles are relics from an old era. Thus they’re bad, so there are a few misconceptions that have sprung up from them. So as a TLDR. Lavos is getting toned down a bit in abilities Chrono Trigger is getting toned the **** up in AP Chrono Trigger gets a solid amount of resistances...

vsbattles.com

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

No, simple as that, because this is DBH, and thing from DBH do not exist in DB canon, similar cosmology do not grant anything, Zeno erase timeline simply is just EE feat, nothing more, now please kindly do not bring this up anymore. Just because i use a scan from canon, doesn't mean anything

I'm not talking about the other things already mentioned in your blog, but simply this thing with no concept of space-time belongs to the canon, so it will too, since Zen'ō can affect the entirety of the entire multiverse and this is not just about DBH.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm not talking about the other things already mentioned in your blog, but simply this thing with no concept of space-time belongs to the canon, so it will too, since Zen'ō can affect the entirety of the entire multiverse and this is not just about DBH.

that scan belong to canon DOESN'T MEAN I MUST UPGRADE CANON, that is bad reasoning, and i already said, Zeno is simply EE a place without concept of time and space, that do not grant him anything at all.

Can Time Energy and alteration to Time do any of the following below?

These quotes are from DontTalk

I remember i once said DT sometime is too hyperspecific, also, wdym anyway??

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Now now let's calm down everyone.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

that scan belong to canon DOESN'T MEAN I MUST UPGRADE CANON, that is bad reasoning, and i already said, Zeno is simply EE a place without concept of time and space, that do not grant him anything at all.

I remember i once said DT sometime is too hyperspecific, also, wdym anyway??

i edited my comment to underline and bold the important parts

 

[Vietthai96]

i edited my comment to underline and bold the important parts

i mean, literally it is in blog, create time in turn create all physical reality, dimension, altering time cause alteration in timeline, distort it, destroy time literally destroy physical reality and erase everything. Different between type 1 and type 2 is just one is independent from change in reality while other is tied to physical reality thus get affected if physical reality get altered

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have some nitpicks.

This scan lacks japanese raws, making hard to evalutate from others who want to verify. Please add it to the scan.

I'd also like to call not "Time Power", but "Power of Time", given Time Power is indeed an unofficial name, and Power of Time is the official one that is said in-verse.

Also, TokiToki will be AE2, right? Similar to how PiB Death is.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, I think this also affects the great Zen'ō, since he can erase the entire multiverse, and that scan there is talking about the time room and another space-time related to GT, which both have the same cosmology, technically this will affect Zen'ō.

My guy, "time" in DBH has so much more context than the canon that applying it to the canon DBH is just asinine.

Otherwise, if we apply DBH-only stuff to DBS, we'd even have 2-A canon multiverse, which is a big nope.

 

[Vietthai96]

This scan lacks japanese raws, making hard to evalutate from others who want to verify. Please add it to the scan.

done, i updated the japanese texts

I'd also like to call not "Time Power", but "Power of Time", given Time Power is indeed an unofficial name, and Power of Time is the official one that is said in-verse.

i mean yeah, but Time Power kinda like shorten version Power of Time and i'm lazy about writing

Also, TokiToki will be AE2, right? Similar to how PiB Death is.

well, i will tackle later but yeah kinda, well still need to get this accepted first before anything else lol

Anyway guys it is midnight in my country, so i need to sleep, i can't reply in the meantime so very sorry for that

 

[TheGreatBanana]

After reading the blog. I agree. Nice job

 

[Dominodalek]

I'd also like to call not "Time Power", but "Power of Time", given Time Power is indeed an unofficial name, and Power of Time is the official one that is said in-verse.

Dokkan Battle translates it as "Power of Time", World Mission translates it as "Time Power". Both are official.

 

[speedster352]

I agree with the op

 

[LordGriffin1000]

You already should know that I'm not knowledgeable on how conceptual manipulation works given my attempt on the Clockwork thread I made in the past. Regardless the blog looks ok but the scan that tries to justify Time Power affecting places that lack the "concept" of time and space is using what appears to be the hyperbolic time chamber, no? From what I recall, that place has time, it just flowed differently and it's clearly in it's own space visually, no?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Haha Vietthai used my idea

You already should know that I'm not knowledgeable on how conceptual manipulation works given my attempt on the Clockwork thread I made in the past. Regardless the blog looks ok but the scan that tries to justify Time Power affecting places that lack the "concept" of time and space is using what appears to be the hyperbolic time chamber, no? From what I recall, that place has time, it just flowed differently and it's clearly in it's own space visually, no?

Basically it’s stated that the subspace is devoid of the concept of space and time and that the RoSaT and Sugoroku Space have been identified/confirmed (uses same kanji) meaning that they’re both in a space devoid of space-time not being devoid of space-time themselves

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Haha Vietthai used my idea

Basically it’s stated that the subspace is devoid of the concept of space and time and that the RoSaT and Sugoroku Space have been identified/confirmed (uses same kanji) meaning that they’re both in a space devoid of space-time not being devoid of space-time themselves

Yeah, the correct translation is that both realms are located/have been identified within that subspace rather than being examples of them.

 

[TiltedFN]

Given profectus comment and the OP, i agree with this.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll give my opinion on the blog when I have the free time and desire to do so.

 

[Quantu]

Blog looks solid tbh. I can see Type 1 concept Time Power.

 

[Vietthai96]

Time Power affecting places that lack the "concept" of time and space is using what appears to be the hyperbolic time chamber, no? From what I recall, that place has time, it just flowed differently and it's clearly in it's own space visually, no?

No, it is <Subspace>, Hyperbolic Time Chamber isn't called <Subspace> and yeah like others have said, HTC is a location in this place

 

[Elizhaa]

OP seem fine.

 

[Dereck03]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo begged me and knelt before me to give my input even when I told him I didn't have time because I am in midterms.
Disagree with NEP addition erasure, first of all a place that doesn't have a concept =/= that place is a nothingness, emptiness, a void, there is no reference to anything that can be used as evidence in the scan and furthermore, the image that is shown in is if I am not mistaken the Room of Spirit and Time, and this has zero evidence of being a non-existent place contrary to the NEP eraure in Time Power page which does make sense since there may be evidence and references directly linked and mentioning non-existence as such, which is not the case here.

I haven't finished my midterms so cya.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

.

Thanks. Just to clarify, the statement refers to the Subspace that holds the HTC, not to the HTC itself.

 

[Dereck03]

Thanks. Just to clarify, the statement refers to the Subspace that holds the HTC, not to the HTC itself.

That subspace has no reference to being an emptiness or non-existent space, just not having 2 concepts =/= Nothingness

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

That subspace has no reference to being an emptiness or non-existent space, just not having 2 concepts =/= Nothingness

Lacking concepts of time and space yet not being 0 dimensional would indeed make a place a "void" as it has no spatial extension/existence whatsoever.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

That subspace has no reference to being an emptiness or non-existent space, just not having 2 concepts =/= Nothingness

1. Conceptual Nonexistence: These are characters for which one or multiple concepts, that are necessary for their own existence, are nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular [[Conceptual Manipulation|manipulation of said concept(s)]. Which type of concept should be mentioned on the profile.

But the NEP page doesn’t seem to require absence of all concepts, just ones fundamental to some definition of “existence.” Here, we’re talking about an “unspace,” an area with no spatiotemporal concept of existence.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Anyway, the revision is pretty simple:

Also small buff for Time Power's NEP Erasure, since it can erase a realm that devoid the concept of time and space, NEP Erasure will also be able to affect Aspect 2 Conceptual Nonexistent, Nuature of NEP still the same which is Type 1

DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN VIETTHAI WITH A METAL CHAIR OUT OF F****** NOWH-

All in all I agree.

 

[Dereck03]

Lacking concepts of time and space yet not being 0 dimensional would indeed make a place a "void" as it has no spatial extension/existence whatsoever.

But the NEP page doesn’t seem to require absence of all concepts, just ones fundamental to some definition of “existence.” Here, we’re talking about an “unspace,” an area with no spatiotemporal concept of existence.

That's just BDE Type 1.

Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features without necessarily being superior to any of them. As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will. They are usually Acausal (Type 1) as a result of being outside of regular time.

The same realm qualifies for BDE 1.

concept of existence.

Why you bring a word that hasn't even mentioned to begin with? If that were true, existence itself would be impossible within the realm, which it is not the case.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

That's just BDE Type 1.

The same realm qualifies for BDE 1.

It also qualifies for NEP type 1.

1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms, that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.

This realm has no physical/material existence due to lacking space and time and does not exist conventionally. This would also make it a true void which at the least gives void manipulation which is what is typically required to interact with NEP 1.

 

[Vietthai96]

I mean, we talking about a "realm", not a "living being", so what constitute a "realm's existence" is space and time, so a realm devoid the concept of space and time is equipvalent to a living being devoid the concept of existence

 

[Dereck03]

This realm has no physical/material existence due to lacking space and time and does not exist conventionally. This would also make it a true void which at the least gives void manipulation which is what is typically required to interact with NEP 1.

You are using this very convenient, show proof that it has no physical or material existence? It has already been said that it has no space or time, it exists between dimensions since it is a separate dimension that is not governed by space or time since it has its own laws of the same, it is not a non-existent space, nor a void nor was it ever referred to as such and life can exist in them but they have to be coupled to the rules of that realm, which further refutes the proof that it is a void.

I mean, we talking about a "realm", not a "living being", so what constitute a "realm's existence" is space and time, so a realm devoid the concept of space and time is equipvalent to a living being devoid the concept of existence

Because space and time are not linked to existence, right, we are not talking about something alive but a realm, it has its laws, also the same description of the Room of Spirit and Time says that it is a space in a different dimension where time is disorted, so we have many contradictions here. So the safest thing to say would be that it has no concept of the space and time that would regularly exist in the verse per se, but that it has its own laws related to them and as I said, there is no proof that it is a non-existent or empty place if it is capable of harboring life in it unless clearly that life was specified as non-existent.

@Elizhaa you are one of the knowledgeable members in staffs, so hope you can review my answer to the NEP addition, unfortunately I have to go.