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Dragon Ball Heroes Revision: Time

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Vietthai96

Vietthai96

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Anyway, the revision is pretty simple:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Vietthai96/sandbox11

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the soon to be blog (if it is accepted), all the arguments and what i want to propose are inside it, read care fully everyone ^^

Also small buff for Time Power's NEP Erasure, since it can erase a realm that devoid the concept of time and space, NEP Erasure will also be able to affect Aspect 2 Conceptual Nonexistent, Nuature of NEP still the same which is Type 1

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Looks alright from a glance.
Click to expand...
Well, I think this also affects the great Zen'ō, since he can erase the entire multiverse, and that scan there is talking about the time room and another space-time related to GT, which both have the same cosmology, technically this will affect Zen'ō.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
No. This thread is only about DBH. Don't derail, thanks.
Click to expand...
Actually yes, since both things are related to the canon verse and this scan is simply from the canon verse, I'm not derailing, I'm just saying that if this thing passes Zen'ō should also receive this, since he can affect these places without concept of time or space.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Well, I think this also affects the great Zen'ō, since he can erase the entire multiverse, and that scan there is talking about the time room and another space-time related to GT, which both have the same cosmology, technically this will affect Zen'ō.
Click to expand...

LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Actually yes, since both things are related to the canon verse and this scan is simply from the canon verse, I'm not derailing, I'm just saying that if this thing passes Zen'ō should also receive this, since he can affect these places without concept of time or space.
Click to expand...
No, simple as that, because this is DBH, and thing from DBH do not exist in DB canon, similar cosmology do not grant anything, Zeno erase timeline simply is just EE feat, nothing more, now please kindly do not bring this up anymore. Just because i use a scan from canon, doesn't mean anything

Edit: Also mind you, even game Zeno do not receive anything, let alone canon Zeno
 
Can Time Energy and alteration to Time do any of the following below? The ones that are bolded and underlined are the important parts of the quotes.

These quotes are from DontTalk
Those aren't two separate definitions. It's two parts of the same definition. A Type 1 Concept has to be independent of reality and be a source of a property to those things that participate in them.

I'm not sure why you assume concepts can't participate in other concepts due to this definition. They don't have to be independent of other concepts, but from the governed reality i.e. the actual world. See this in contrast to Type 2 where alteration of every object governed can cause alteration of the concept.

Also, just in case, will point out that time, space and causality aren't concepts in themselves. They are actual non-abstract things. There are separate concepts of time, space and causality.

vsbattles.com

Concept Manip Type 1's Misaligned Definition

Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation is defined as: 1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

"However, concepts should be... general... to use a vague term. Concepts, in our usage of them, are to laws of nature, what laws of nature are to matter. They are the cause of the laws, in a certain sense, and dictate how they work. Or perhaps it would be better to say they are the cause of the properties of the objects which dictate, based on the laws, how things work."DontTalk (DT)


"Changing the property of a flame to make it cold mean you change the property "being hot" into the property "being cold". Meanwhile, concept manip would take the property "being hot" and let the flame remain hot. Instead, it would make it so that things that are hot behave like being cold.
If inverting gravity is gravity manipulation, but changing the nature of gravity is law manipultion, then inverting a property should be property manipulation, but changing the nature of the property itself would be concept manipulation. That might be a good way to put it." -DT


"I mean, we could change Type 3 to that if everyone prefers, but I see quite a big difference between changing the property of something and changing the nature of the property (i.e. concept) itself. One thing affects the object, the other thing affects the property. The target is different. As said, like the difference between manipulating gravity and changing the nature of gravity itself.
As long as it's separated it probably isn't vastly important what it is listed as, but separated it should be." - DT


vsbattles.com

Conceptual Manipulation Clarifications/Revisions

Hello All, The topic of this discussion is in regards to how we treat conceptual manipulation and is sort of stemming from the current JjK hax revisions thread, and this incomplete thread discussing some of the concepts I am touching upon today. Essentially, we don't really have an avenue...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Thing is, all of this could also apply for type 3. Type 2 is more for concepts that aren't just abstractions of a single thing and more for concepts that grant a property to reality at large (like "circleness" making all circles round.) Ichibe seems to deal more with individual names of people.
Like, changing the name Yhwach probably affected nobody else that was named Yhwach besides his target.
vsbattles.com

What to rank name based manipulations as? (Mostly Clash of Hexennacht, mentions Bleach and Medaka Box as precedence cases)

So, Clash of Hexennacht has a few users with the ability to mess with names. Specifically, they currently list the following: Conceptual Manipulation (Witches are capable of controlling names, names are the definition of things in themselves, and things exist because of names. Witches can...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...


The below quote is from Ultima

Conceptual Manipulation as a power just boils down to "Is able to manipulate some abstract essence that defines and governs some aspect of physical reality and can thus enact changes in the latter as a result," and Type 1 just adds the requirement that this essence must also exist independently from the physical world. Both of those are things that Dreams in Chrono very much fit the bill for. So, manipulating them is either Conceptual Manipulation or something that in the end is functionally identical.

vsbattles.com

Chrono Revisions (Lavos, Dreams, AP)

So the Chrono profiles are relics from an old era. Thus they’re bad, so there are a few misconceptions that have sprung up from them. So as a TLDR. Lavos is getting toned down a bit in abilities Chrono Trigger is getting toned the **** up in AP Chrono Trigger gets a solid amount of resistances...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
 
Vietthai96 said:
No, simple as that, because this is DBH, and thing from DBH do not exist in DB canon, similar cosmology do not grant anything, Zeno erase timeline simply is just EE feat, nothing more, now please kindly do not bring this up anymore. Just because i use a scan from canon, doesn't mean anything
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about the other things already mentioned in your blog, but simply this thing with no concept of space-time belongs to the canon, so it will too, since Zen'ō can affect the entirety of the entire multiverse and this is not just about DBH.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I'm not talking about the other things already mentioned in your blog, but simply this thing with no concept of space-time belongs to the canon, so it will too, since Zen'ō can affect the entirety of the entire multiverse and this is not just about DBH.
Click to expand...
that scan belong to canon DOESN'T MEAN I MUST UPGRADE CANON, that is bad reasoning, and i already said, Zeno is simply EE a place without concept of time and space, that do not grant him anything at all.
TheUnshakableOne said:
Can Time Energy and alteration to Time do any of the following below?

These quotes are from DontTalk
Click to expand...
I remember i once said DT sometime is too hyperspecific, also, wdym anyway??
 
Vietthai96 said:
that scan belong to canon DOESN'T MEAN I MUST UPGRADE CANON, that is bad reasoning, and i already said, Zeno is simply EE a place without concept of time and space, that do not grant him anything at all.

I remember i once said DT sometime is too hyperspecific, also, wdym anyway??
Click to expand...
i edited my comment to underline and bold the important parts
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
i edited my comment to underline and bold the important parts
Click to expand...
i mean, literally it is in blog, create time in turn create all physical reality, dimension, altering time cause alteration in timeline, distort it, destroy time literally destroy physical reality and erase everything. Different between type 1 and type 2 is just one is independent from change in reality while other is tied to physical reality thus get affected if physical reality get altered
 
I have some nitpicks.

This scan lacks japanese raws, making hard to evalutate from others who want to verify. Please add it to the scan.

I'd also like to call not "Time Power", but "Power of Time", given Time Power is indeed an unofficial name, and Power of Time is the official one that is said in-verse.

Also, TokiToki will be AE2, right? Similar to how PiB Death is.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Well, I think this also affects the great Zen'ō, since he can erase the entire multiverse, and that scan there is talking about the time room and another space-time related to GT, which both have the same cosmology, technically this will affect Zen'ō.
Click to expand...

My guy, "time" in DBH has so much more context than the canon that applying it to the canon DBH is just asinine.

Otherwise, if we apply DBH-only stuff to DBS, we'd even have 2-A canon multiverse, which is a big nope.
 
StrymULTRA said:
This scan lacks japanese raws, making hard to evalutate from others who want to verify. Please add it to the scan.
Click to expand...
done, i updated the japanese texts
StrymULTRA said:
I'd also like to call not "Time Power", but "Power of Time", given Time Power is indeed an unofficial name, and Power of Time is the official one that is said in-verse.
Click to expand...
i mean yeah, but Time Power kinda like shorten version Power of Time and i'm lazy about writing
StrymULTRA said:
Also, TokiToki will be AE2, right? Similar to how PiB Death is.
Click to expand...
well, i will tackle later but yeah kinda, well still need to get this accepted first before anything else lol

Anyway guys it is midnight in my country, so i need to sleep, i can't reply in the meantime so very sorry for that
 
StrymULTRA said:
I'd also like to call not "Time Power", but "Power of Time", given Time Power is indeed an unofficial name, and Power of Time is the official one that is said in-verse.
Click to expand...
Dokkan Battle translates it as "Power of Time", World Mission translates it as "Time Power". Both are official.
 
You already should know that I'm not knowledgeable on how conceptual manipulation works given my attempt on the Clockwork thread I made in the past. Regardless the blog looks ok but the scan that tries to justify Time Power affecting places that lack the "concept" of time and space is using what appears to be the hyperbolic time chamber, no? From what I recall, that place has time, it just flowed differently and it's clearly in it's own space visually, no?
 
Haha Vietthai used my idea
LordGriffin1000 said:
You already should know that I'm not knowledgeable on how conceptual manipulation works given my attempt on the Clockwork thread I made in the past. Regardless the blog looks ok but the scan that tries to justify Time Power affecting places that lack the "concept" of time and space is using what appears to be the hyperbolic time chamber, no? From what I recall, that place has time, it just flowed differently and it's clearly in it's own space visually, no?
Click to expand...
Basically it’s stated that the subspace is devoid of the concept of space and time and that the RoSaT and Sugoroku Space have been identified/confirmed (uses same kanji) meaning that they’re both in a space devoid of space-time not being devoid of space-time themselves
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Haha Vietthai used my idea

Basically it’s stated that the subspace is devoid of the concept of space and time and that the RoSaT and Sugoroku Space have been identified/confirmed (uses same kanji) meaning that they’re both in a space devoid of space-time not being devoid of space-time themselves
Click to expand...
Yeah, the correct translation is that both realms are located/have been identified within that subspace rather than being examples of them.

unnamed.jpg
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Time Power affecting places that lack the "concept" of time and space is using what appears to be the hyperbolic time chamber, no? From what I recall, that place has time, it just flowed differently and it's clearly in it's own space visually, no?
Click to expand...
No, it is <Subspace>, Hyperbolic Time Chamber isn't called <Subspace> and yeah like others have said, HTC is a location in this place
 
@Ottavio_Merluzzo begged me and knelt before me to give my input even when I told him I didn't have time because I am in midterms.
Disagree with NEP addition erasure, first of all a place that doesn't have a concept =/= that place is a nothingness, emptiness, a void, there is no reference to anything that can be used as evidence in the scan and furthermore, the image that is shown in is if I am not mistaken the Room of Spirit and Time, and this has zero evidence of being a non-existent place contrary to the NEP eraure in Time Power page which does make sense since there may be evidence and references directly linked and mentioning non-existence as such, which is not the case here.

I haven't finished my midterms so cya.
 
Dereck03 said:
That subspace has no reference to being an emptiness or non-existent space, just not having 2 concepts =/= Nothingness
Click to expand...
  1. Conceptual Nonexistence: These are characters for which one or multiple concepts, that are necessary for their own existence, are nonexistent. They are hence immune to regular [[Conceptual Manipulation|manipulation of said concept(s)]. Which type of concept should be mentioned on the profile.
Click to expand...
But the NEP page doesn’t seem to require absence of all concepts, just ones fundamental to some definition of “existence.” Here, we’re talking about an “unspace,” an area with no spatiotemporal concept of existence.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Lacking concepts of time and space yet not being 0 dimensional would indeed make a place a "void" as it has no spatial extension/existence whatsoever.
Click to expand...
ProfectusInfinity said:
But the NEP page doesn’t seem to require absence of all concepts, just ones fundamental to some definition of “existence.” Here, we’re talking about an “unspace,” an area with no spatiotemporal concept of existence.
Click to expand...
That's just BDE Type 1.
Type 1: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features without necessarily being superior to any of them. As a result they aren't limited to existing within spatiotemporal realms and are often unaffected by Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation or can at least defend against it by leaving spacetime at will. They are usually Acausal (Type 1) as a result of being outside of regular time.
Click to expand...
The same realm qualifies for BDE 1.
concept of existence.
Click to expand...
Why you bring a word that hasn't even mentioned to begin with? If that were true, existence itself would be impossible within the realm, which it is not the case.
 
Dereck03 said:
That's just BDE Type 1.

The same realm qualifies for BDE 1.
Click to expand...
It also qualifies for NEP type 1.
  1. Material Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a conventional sense. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0. In simple terms, that means that the characters simply lack the aspect, in the same way that a stone lacks a soul.
Click to expand...
This realm has no physical/material existence due to lacking space and time and does not exist conventionally. This would also make it a true void which at the least gives void manipulation which is what is typically required to interact with NEP 1.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
This realm has no physical/material existence due to lacking space and time and does not exist conventionally. This would also make it a true void which at the least gives void manipulation which is what is typically required to interact with NEP 1.
Click to expand...
You are using this very convenient, show proof that it has no physical or material existence? It has already been said that it has no space or time, it exists between dimensions since it is a separate dimension that is not governed by space or time since it has its own laws of the same, it is not a non-existent space, nor a void nor was it ever referred to as such and life can exist in them but they have to be coupled to the rules of that realm, which further refutes the proof that it is a void.
Vietthai96 said:
I mean, we talking about a "realm", not a "living being", so what constitute a "realm's existence" is space and time, so a realm devoid the concept of space and time is equipvalent to a living being devoid the concept of existence
Click to expand...
Because space and time are not linked to existence, right, we are not talking about something alive but a realm, it has its laws, also the same description of the Room of Spirit and Time says that it is a space in a different dimension where time is disorted, so we have many contradictions here. So the safest thing to say would be that it has no concept of the space and time that would regularly exist in the verse per se, but that it has its own laws related to them and as I said, there is no proof that it is a non-existent or empty place if it is capable of harboring life in it unless clearly that life was specified as non-existent.

@Elizhaa you are one of the knowledgeable members in staffs, so hope you can review my answer to the NEP addition, unfortunately I have to go.
 
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