Dragon Ball Cosmology

[AKM sama]

Can you link me one? i see no other thread discussing this

Unfortunately, I can't. But maybe someone else can. There have been many threads regarding it and it was decided that a DB universe is just a very big universe composed of other realms separated by spatial boundaries.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I agree that BoG feat should be at least Low 2-C but the Beerus > Vegito thing is not a good justification that will work.
They don't use DBZKAI or Anime feats to support anything that happens in Super. Thats why Majin Buu and Vegito are just Solar System level on the site.

Wait how is vegeto solar system level when he scales massively above cell and SSJ2 gohan who are both solar system level if not higher, even SSB Vegito can't beat Beerus who is logically superior to SSJ vegito, i think it's good justification as super come right after DBZ and though it retconned some aspects of Z everyone still scales higher from their Z counterparts

on this site they go by distance in between Solar Systems and not by how many times X can destroy our Solar System over. So unfortunately thats why Vegito has that SS rating. I agree with your logic though.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I believe it has something to do with this scene

That isn't a contradiction that refutes the fact that Super characters scale off of Z or that using Z to scale super characters is invalid, everyone is saying it's filler and though I'm not sure it if, but if it is then that whole point doesn't matter since the filler isn't canon to the main story, and if it is, why would that conflict with using beerus > vegito as a point?

I honestly would like the staff to clarify more on said contradictions.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The Kai thing seems fishy -.- but I'll forget it lol.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Can you link me one? i see no other thread discussing this

Unfortunately, I can't. But maybe someone else can. There have been many threads regarding it and it was decided that a DB universe is just a very big universe composed of other realms separated by spatial boundaries.
Not sure why it was decided like that since there are multiple statements supporting that the universe is a macrocosm and that they're separate space times

 

[SauceGod1.1]

I agree that BoG feat should be at least Low 2-C but the Beerus > Vegito thing is not a good justification that will work.
They don't use DBZKAI or Anime feats to support anything that happens in Super. Thats why Majin Buu and Vegito are just Solar System level on the site.

Wait how is vegeto solar system level when he scales massively above cell and SSJ2 gohan who are both solar system level if not higher, even SSB Vegito can't beat Beerus who is logically superior to SSJ vegito, i think it's good justification as super come right after DBZ and though it retconned some aspects of Z everyone still scales higher from their Z counterparts

on this site they go by distance in between Solar Systems and not by how many times X can destroy our Solar System over. So unfortunately thats why Vegito has that SS rating. I agree with your logic though.

I Know, that wasn't the point, majin buu has 3-A or high end 3-B feats by destroying "Galaxies" which in the dragon ball cosmology they are "Composed of innumerable nebulae" which themselves are composed of "innumerable stars" (link ) and Kid Buu, was able to destroy "Galaxies" but they might've meant "nebulae" (link ), though I'm not sure if it happened in the manga or if it's truly canonical; Kid buu also has statements of him being able to destroy the universe (Link 1 and 2 ), so kid buu should be 3-C, 3-B or 3-A if he destroyed a DBZ "Galaxy" not just a galaxy, he could also possibly be low 2-C as buuhan had enough power to destroy the macrocosm which would be a 2-C feat and Kid buu is stated to be able to make the universe go "Poof". There are also 3-A statements for cell (Link 1 and 2 ), there are way more statements supporting that Buu arc characters are 3-A to 2-C than they are for SS, It is an extreme downplay to put these characters at 4-B and there needs to be an extremely good reason as to why they downplay them so much

 

[SauceGod1.1]

The Kai thing seems fishy -.- but I'll forget it lol.

Which kai thing?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Which kai thing?

You know DB Kai not being used as secondary canon.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Which kai thing?

You know DB Kai not being used as secondary canon.
Not entirely sure what you mean by that

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I personally find the reasons AwkguyDB cited for Dragon Ball Kai not being accepted on the wiki as a secondary canon to be insufficient and kind of flimsy. Because one filler scene shouldn't be enough to discredit the whole thing.

Do you understand my point of view now lol?

 

[AKM sama]

Not sure why it was decided like that since there are multiple statements supporting that the universe is a macrocosm and that they're separate space times

There's not enough evidence that they are different time-space. Time flows the same way in the afterlife as in the mortal realm, as depicted in the Saiyan saga. Anyway, I doubt anything is going to change right now, we've literally had this discussion hundred times now. I'm inclined to close the thread.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

The realms being spatially disconnected doesn't mean they have their own space-times. You can have multiple bodies of space in a single space-time continuum. Also the Kaioshin Realm is stated to be made from a crystalline structure.

I also agree with AKM sama that this should be closed.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

I personally find the reasons AwkguyDB cited for Dragon Ball Kai not being accepted on the wiki as a secondary canon to be insufficient and kind of flimsy. Because one filler scene shouldn't be enough to discredit the whole thing.
Do you understand my point of view now lol?

Yeah kinda

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Not sure why it was decided like that since there are multiple statements supporting that the universe is a macrocosm and that they're separate space times

There's not enough evidence that they are different time-space. Time flows the same way in the afterlife as in the mortal realm, as depicted in the Saiyan saga. Anyway, I doubt anything is going to change right now, we've literally had this discussion hundred times now. I'm inclined to close the thread.

Just because times flows at the same rate still isn't enough to discredit that they are different space times and evidence? i got you. Link 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5, 6 , 7, 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 these are the links that support most of my argument, the living world is stated to be infinite or definitely expanding as it's modeled after our universe, the demon realm which has different physics that the living world is also as large as large as the livin world, heaven is stated to be as large as the universe but it is within the after life which is another space time, in total each universe has 3 space times, the living world, the demon realm and the afterlife with round 5 or 6 3-A structures. What strong evidence refuestes these facts?

 

[SauceGod1.1]

The realms being spatially disconnected doesn't mean they have their own space-times. You can have multiple bodies of space in a single space-time continuum. Also the Kaioshin Realm is stated to be made from a crystalline structure.
I also agree with AKM sama that this should be closed.

yet they aren't 3-A space as heaven is as large as the living world and heaven is within the afterlife and they are statements that support the universe being infinite or indefinitely expanding, the kaioshin realm exist outside the macrocosm and if i remember correctly there are multiple stars in the realm but I'm not 100% sure

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Where is it stated that the makai has different physics?

 

[AwkguyDB]

Where is it stated that the makai has different physics?

Actually I think that it was stated somewhere that the Makai realm's laws are based off of dark magic like how Science works in the Living Realm.

this might be it

Demon Realm
A world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World. However, magic holds greater influence than science. Similar to the obverse universe being split into east, west, south, and north areas, the Demon Realm is also split into multiple space areas. And the absolute king who commands all of this is Daabra.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So there's no "physics" statement?

 

[AwkguyDB]

Idk if there is a "physics" statement but thats what seems to be implied or at least how its interpreted.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

So there's no "physics" statement?

It has different physics because magic has more influence than science, meaning that the way we normally see and know things like light, radiation and the way things work in general are different in the demon realm, they still have phycics but its different than ours or the living world's

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

yet they aren't 3-A space as heaven is as large as the living world and heaven is within the afterlife and they are statements that support the universe being infinite or indefinitely expanding, the kaioshin realm exist outside the macrocosm and if i remember correctly there are multiple stars in the realm but I'm not 100% sure

Destroying multiple 3-A sized realms is still 3-A, just an above baseline degree of it.

 

[Dragomer]

For the Daizenshuu, the exact full statement is that , I don't think it's the only statement about it though, i'm pretty sure one mentionned 'laws' and Demigra, don't think it would be valid outside of DBX and DBH though.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Well... maybe that can help.

Goku could feel gohan's ki (who was in the kaioshin kingdom) from the afterlife. He could also feel the ki of super buu and gotenks, but he lost it when they went to another dimension (time camera)

This added to the other arguments given in the previous threads

 

[SauceGod1.1]

yet they aren't 3-A space as heaven is as large as the living world and heaven is within the afterlife and they are statements that support the universe being infinite or indefinitely expanding, the kaioshin realm exist outside the macrocosm and if i remember correctly there are multiple stars in the realm but I'm not 100% sure

Destroying multiple 3-A sized realms is still 3-A, just an above baseline degree of it.

Ye, that isn't an rebuttal to anything as the statement for them being infinite or indefinrlty expanding are still there

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Because any statements alluding to infinite are clear hyperbole to describe how vast the universe is. The Kaioshin Realm having 1/10 the size of the macrocosm would directly imply the universe as having a definitive size.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Because any statements alluding to infinite are clear hyperbole to describe how vast the universe is. The Kaioshin Realm having 1/10 the size of the macrocosm would directly imply the universe as having a definitive size.

That's why i said or indefinitely expanding, also can you link me the daisenshuu that states the kaioshin realm being 1/10th, or the date that it was released

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Because any statements alluding to infinite are clear hyperbole to describe how vast the universe is. The Kaioshin Realm having 1/10 the size of the macrocosm would directly imply the universe as having a definitive size.

Also being the kaioshin ream being 1/10 doesn't give it a definite size it could be a space time continuum as it's stated to be modeled after out universe and the observable universe has a diameter of 93B LY, yet we know it's indefinitely expanding, if we had a realm that is 1/10 the size of our universe we wouldn't immediately assume that it isn't expansive, also the kaioshin realm is 1/10 of the macrocosm which here i considered a space time continuum so it being 1/10th the size wouldn't that mean the macrocosm in it's entirety is 3-A? no you wouldn't assume that for orbious reasons so saying "since the kaioshin realm i 1/10th of the macrocosm that means the universe is finite" is illogical

 

[Akreious]

The Kaioshin Realm being 1/10th the size of the Universe means just that; 1/10th the size. It doesn't inherently imply a finite size since you CAN be 1/10th of Infinite as much as you can have a thousand sets of Infinite being superior to a single set of Infinity despite both meaning "Not Finite".

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Here, 1/10th the size of the macrocosm and made of a crystalline sphere, which is evidently not a space-time continuum.

 

[Akreious]

Here, 1/10th the size of the macrocosm and made of a crystalline sphere, which is evidently not a space-time continuum.

Nothing in that implies that it's not a Space-Time Continuum at all though. You just saying it doesn't make it so. We see Timelines represented as literal lines, does that make the Universes within definitely always Finite?

Also the canonicity of it is dubious if you want to get into what's canon and what's not. If the Dai-Kaioshin and the regular Kaioshin are only separated by a few million kilometers, that'd make the universe less than a billion kilometers wide.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Here, 1/10th the size of the macrocosm and made of a crystalline sphere, which is evidently not a space-time continuum.

I meant when it came out, the date this daizenshuu was released, it was daizenshuu 4 pages 72 and 73 if i remember; I'll debunk what you said in a moment

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Here, 1/10th the size of the macrocosm and made of a crystalline sphere, which is evidently not a space-time continuum.

This and this support the universe being infinite or indefinetly expanding, both are in the 4th daizenshuu and the first one is on page 54 while the second is on the same page with the kaioshin one i believe, so then you have the living world which is decided into 2, the universe and the demon realm, both of which are said to be endless, what i tink they meant by endless is indefinetly expanding as our universe is endless because if you were to travel to the end, since it expands indefinitely you'd reach where the end was, but that isn't the end anymore as it's expanding, another thing to not is how its states "It's about" and with the other evidence that support it being indefinetly expanding it could mean that since the size of the universe isn't finite it's impossible to gauge it's exact size as it's indefinetly expanding, the only evidence you have that supports it being finite is that the kaioshin realm is stated to be 1/10th the macrocosm which is debunked by that fact that it says about meaning the size of the universe fluctuates, the universe is stated to be indefinetly expanding on two occasions, it's also stated to be modeled after our universe and that just because something is 1/1th the size of a universe doesn't mean it's finite, if someone said that there is something 1/5 the size of a universe or 18.6B LY we wouldn't assume te universe is finite, our universe is 93B LY across yet it isn't finite, just because something has a size doesn't meant it cant grow past that, there's way more statements in favor the universe being indefinetly expansive than it being finite.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

Here, 1/10th the size of the macrocosm and made of a crystalline sphere, which is evidently not a space-time continuum.

Our galaxy is about 1/1,759,697 the size of our universe, does that imply our universe is finite?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Akreious Yes it does? Space-time isn't made of tangible matter like crystals are.

@SauceGod1.1 Expansive doesn't mean the same thing as expanding. It means something covers a large area, which is what's being stated about the universe. You can't exactly divide infinity by a finite number, since that would still result in infinity. In order for the Kaioshin Realm to be 1/10 the size of the macrocosm, they would need to have definitive sizes, so not infinite. The infinitely part is a hyperbolic additive to describe the universe as being very large. Your math is also off, 93 billion light years is a finite size, plus that's just the observable universe. We don't actually know if the universe IRL is infinite or not.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

@Akreious Yes it does? Space-time isn't made of tangible matter like crystals are.
@SauceGod1.1 Expansive doesn't mean the same thing as expanding. It means something covers a large area, which is what's being stated about the universe. You can't exactly divide infinity by a finite number, since that would still result in infinity. In order for the Kaioshin Realm to be 1/10 the size of the macrocosm, they would need to have definitive sizes, so not infinite. The infinitely part is a hyperbolic additive to describe the universe as being very large. Your math is also off, 93 billion light years is a finite size, plus that's just the observable universe. We don't actually know if the universe IRL is infinite or not.

Bruh, They say the endless expansive space, not just the expansive space, i didn't say it was infinite, i said "what i tink they meant by endless is indefinetly expanding as our universe is endless because if you were to travel to the end, since it expands indefinitely you'd reach where the end was, but that isn't the end anymore as it's expanding" endlessly expansive and expansive are different, expansive as you said means to cover a large area, endlessly expansive, which is what i said means that it expands without end, it continually expands, it never stops expanding, again i didn't say infinite, for the kaioshin realm to be "about 1/10" they don't have to be finite as you're overlooking what about means, they don't say it's exactly 1/10t just like how our universe is 93B LY if not it's about 93B LY because it keep expanding, again you keep going on about infinite when i said they endlessly expand, hows it wrong? the universe is about 93B LY, but since it's expanding we say "About" because you cant get an exact number for something that continuously expands

 

[SauceGod1.1]

@Akreious Yes it does? Space-time isn't made of tangible matter like crystals are.
@SauceGod1.1 Expansive doesn't mean the same thing as expanding. It means something covers a large area, which is what's being stated about the universe. You can't exactly divide infinity by a finite number, since that would still result in infinity. In order for the Kaioshin Realm to be 1/10 the size of the macrocosm, they would need to have definitive sizes, so not infinite. The infinitely part is a hyperbolic additive to describe the universe as being very large. Your math is also off, 93 billion light years is a finite size, plus that's just the observable universe. We don't actually know if the universe IRL is infinite or not.

So you still haven't shown any other evidence that supports your point

 

[AKM sama]

DB universe is clearly finite, it has a center, it has an edge. All of its representations from the map to its depiction in the anime are all finite. You don't get more finite than that.

 

[Dragomer]

Same can be said about the whole DC multiverse if that's the standard for finite we are using.

 

[SauceGod1.1]

DB universe is clearly finite, it has a center, it has an edge. All of its representations from the map to its depiction in the anime are all finite. You don't get more finite than that.

Can you link these statements? also have you heard about not to scale? what your basically saying is that the way the universe is geographically represented it's not expanding but stationary meaning it must be finite, all depictions of all universes no matter the verse are depicted as some kind of sphere, in fiction, we hardly see any depictions of universes that expand while they're being depicted because that's all what it is, a depiction, the first two points you made require evidence but that last one is te most illogical argument I've read about why the DB cosmology is finite

 

[SauceGod1.1]

DB universe is clearly finite, it has a center, it has an edge. All of its representations from the map to its depiction in the anime are all finite. You don't get more finite than that.

Here is a depiction of the DC multiverse, by your logic i guess it's finite