Dr Fate Revision

[Sandman31]

Eric and Linda Strauss

(Comparable to Indra, whose power could endanger 1,001 planes of creation. Casually erected a barrier that could defend against a blast that created many universes)

1) I dont think the planes of Creation is referring to universes. Its more likely that its referring to the fact that in DeMatteis's cosmology, reality is just a dream/illusion and that there are layers of dreams on top of the true reality

"What mankind takes to be real is a nightmare...a shared delusion...layered over the Creator's true vision for his children"
A thousand layers of the dreaam
Also, Fate was never said to be comparable to Indra. In fact Fate attacked Indra and Indra just laughed
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She was only able to break through the barrier by manipulating her kundalini (Power associated with the divine feminine) and its implied that this is something that only woman, or at least Linda as Dr Fate, can do
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2) The "explosion" was explicitly stated to be not an explosion of power but of "love"

Why do we scale it to Fate's attack potency if that's the case? I think it would just be a resistance or something like that since it was stated that it was so much love that it can burn the soul. I dont think its a blast like the Big Bang but something entirely different. Hell there are animals swimming in that ocean of love so its definitely not a Big Bang type explosion.

Nabu

• (and single Lords of Order and Chaos can warp infinite realities)

It seems like this got added while I was away but let me just reinstate why I dont agree with this scaling.

That scan was a scan of Dominus who is a Lord of Order, however at that time he has usurped most of Kismets power.

Kismet WAS a Lord of Order. She was the lover of Dominus, her name was Ahti, but Dominus became envious when Ahti ascended to the role of Kismet, the Illuminator of All Realities

And as Kismet, she's not just one of the lords of order or chaos, she's a "buffer" between them. Kismet exists between both, she illuminates both Order and Chaos and is something of an arbiter preserving stability between the two forces

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• And also this (The energy remaining after his death was enough to endanger all creation)

This scan is from Helmet of Fate: Zauriel. The meaning of the term creation is based on context, it could be the multiverse or just the universe or something else entirely. As for the context for this, its not multiverse.

As you can see, all of creation in this issue is only referring to the universe and its realms, not all of the multiverse

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree.

 

[Planck69]

Makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

This makes sense to me as well.

What do you suggest as a solution regarding how to retier the character, and which other characters scale from him?

 

[Sandman31]

This makes sense to me as well.

What do you suggest as a solution regarding how to retier the character, and which other characters scale from him?

The tiers for these keys needs to be changed.

Key: Eric and Linda Strauss | Hector Hall | Kent Nelson

Characters who scales this that I know of are

Mordru, The Infinite Man and Time Trapper.

I think the scaling could be reverse so that they scale to Time Trapper's feat instead (Which I think is 2-C)

As for the 2-A key(Kent and Inza, Nabu), right now, I only think the reasoning needs to be change. I'm still skeptical of their tiers though so I'll look into the feats again/reasoning again

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine.

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Planck69

What do you think?

 

[Planck69]

I think Sandman's proposals are fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Honestly don't know enough about Fate to effectively say. However on a quick read through it looks good.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Pretty much was Qawsedf234 said. I don't know much about Fate but the reasoning looks solid to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Sandman31]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/doctor-fate-revamp.62569/#post-2155809

Okay, just re checked the feat and the reason why it was used again. In this thread

"Long ago, Kent and Inza Nelson used to be considered multiversal when working together as a single Doctor Fate. This tiering came from a battle he fought against Vandaemeon and Ynar, a renigade Lord of Chaos and Lord of Order respectively, who together supposedly threatened the multiversal balance in Immortal Doctor Fate #3. However, this tiering was later rejected- the feat no longer being considered multiversal- because Vanaemeon and Ynar supposedly only threatened the multiverse by virtue of being a hostile force that the other Lords of Chaos and Order were not willing to oppose, as doing so would necessitate first weakening their defenses against each other. You can see the situation explained in detail here. And while this described stalemate is an accurate summary of events, I do not think it is what makes Ynar and Vanaemon a threat to the multiverse in that story. If you reread the provided scan, Chaos and Order refusing to back down is simply used as an explanation for why Vanaemeon and Ynar were able to team up and hatch their scheme for multiversal domination in the first place. The danger they pose to the multiverse is more complicated than that"

I'll just have to disagree with this. The disruption of Chaos and Order is not just something that was used to explain why they were able to team up. The story made it pretty clear that they were a multiversal threat because of them breaking the stasis that held Order and Chaos in balance.

"-But over the stasis which has for aeons held order and chaos in balance, permitting the cosmos to exist"

"Within the story, Ynar tricks Doctor Fate into investigating a strange mystical gem only to trap him inside of it without him knowing. From there, Fate, assuming he is in another dimension, finds himself in a tough fight against Vanaemo, where he really goes all out and even burns his sigal into the Lord of Chaos. Then after escaping, he discovers that this was all a coordinated effort by the two lords to imbue the gem with Fate's powers in addition to Vanaemon and Ynar's own powers, which they will then use to rewrite the multiverse. You can see them plotting to "refashion" the multiverse after Fate's death right here. You can see Fate lamenting that the gem is disrupting the multiverse here. The world was ending. Inza Nelson and the Tower of Fate were the only two things seemingly unaffected by the gem. Doctor Fate's initial attempts to break the gem were futile because an amped Vanaemon was easily capable of stopping him, so Nabu fused Inza and Kent into a more balanced and powerful Fate, they shattered the gem, and they easily banished the renegade Lords of Order and Chaos . I see no reason why this should not qualify as a multiversal feat. The refusal by other lords to intervine had little to nothing to do with how Vanaemon and Ynar were reshaping the multiverse, as far as I can tell. That being said, it is a weird story and I'm open to hearing other thoughts on the topic"

Well, I see why this shouldnt qualify as a multiversal feat. One is that their plan to reshape the multiverse is very gradual. The item that they're using to reshape things is the a ruby which absorbs and imbues things with eldritch energy. It was first as shown the size of a kernel but grew by absorbing the powers of Doctor Fate.

It grew but its definitely nowhere close in reshaping the multiverse, I doubt its even closed to reshaping the universe by the time Vandaemon and Ynnar was defeated.

The reason why I think so is because of how the gem/emerald works. Its not like the infinity gems where you snap your fingers and boom, multiverse reshaped

The gem was reshaping things by imbuing sunlight with eldritch energies. Unless this is like some multiversal sun then I just dont see how they could reshape the multiverse using the gem, maybe they could eventually reshape all of the multiverse but its going to be a gradual process.

Its also not a "More balanced" Fate, more powerful, maybe, but the fusion was killing them

"It must be dissolved---lest this body be dissolved by the tensions this joining has created"

 

[Sandman31]

Also, the Kent and Inza + Nabu Dr Fate only appeared for like 4 pages, the fusion was not stable and will kill them after only a short while. Is that key really necessary? I dont think anyone should also scale to it, the reason why they fused was because they need the power of the human spirit because a Lord of Chaos and Order working together cant be defeated by either Chaos and Order so they need the power of the human spirit (Which derives power from both)

 

[Antvasima]

No that key seems redundant to me. We do not have a sufficient number of appearances and feats to scale in a reliable manner.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, you make sense to me. What do you suggest that we should do with the rescaling, more specifically?

 

[Sandman31]

Anyway, you make sense to me. What do you suggest that we should do with the rescaling, more specifically?

Probably just downgrade Time Trapper back to 2-C, since his 2-B comes from the scaling to Fate and then just scale Fate and those who scale to him to Time Trapper's 2-C feat, then downgrade or just delete the Kent + Inza key

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Superboy Prime also has a Time Trapper key. Should we rescale or remove that? It only lasted for a single story, so it seems unreliable.

 

[Sandman31]

I'm not really sure, I'm still a little confused by the Time Trapper thing but wasn't Time Trapper stated to be a sentient timeline with changing histories and origin? From what I know SBP is not the only one who was revealed/implied to be Time Trapper

If its something never referenced again then I guess its reasonable to just delete it though I'm not really sure

If we're going to keep it though it definitely should be downgraded to 2-C

 

[Sandman31]

Holy shit Dr Fate not being Multi+ to Low Multi is downplay at its finest

He's still going to be Low Multi (2-C) and Nabu is still 2A

 

[Antvasima]

This revision seems fine to me. Do we need more staff and/or community input?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Sandman31

Do we have the comic issues for the scans above?

 

[Sandman31]

@Sandman31

Do we have the comic issues for the scans above?

Eric and Linda Strauss
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The Spectre (2001) # 2
"What mankind takes to be real is a nightmare...a shared delusion...layered over the Creator's true vision for his children"
A thousand layers of the dream

Doctor Fate (1998)- #8 - 9
Also, Fate was never said to be comparable to Indra. In fact Fate attacked Indra and Indra just laughed

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She was only able to break through the barrier by manipulating her kundalini (Power associated with the divine feminine) and its implied that this is something that only woman, or at least Linda as Dr Fate, can do
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2) The "explosion" was explicitly stated to be not an explosion of power but of "love" - Doctor Fate (1988)# 6

Nabu

Actually forgot where that scan came from, I'm pretty sure it was from the Dominus Effect arc. Anyway, here are other scans from Superman #138 which shows Kismet's power and role is in comparison to the Lords of Chaos and Order

Kismet is not a Lord of Order/Chaos, she's a god even compared to Dominus who was a Lord of Order (originally)

"He wants this status of a cosmic entity, my status. I stand between him and godhood, therefore he must kill me"

The only time she was stated to be a lord of order was in a data sheet

These five scans are from Eternity Girl issue #3
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As for Kismet's and Dominus's origin, it was told in Action Comics #754. Dominus and Ahti are Lords of Order, but Ahti ascended and became Kismet, the Illuminator of all Realities. Ever since then Dominus has been trying to replace kismet. The first time he tried to replace Kismet he was immediately annihilated and was only saved from death by Kismet. Anyway, fast forward into the future, Dominus escaped, became a Lord of Chaos and was finally able to usurp most of Kismet's power

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The Helmet of Fate scan is from Helmet of Fate: Zauriel

The scans about Vandaemon and Ynnar are from Immortal Doctor Fate #3

 

[Antvasima]

So is that sufficient evidence to apply this?

 

[Sandman31]

Another one here, Kismet was a Lord of Order but ascended into the role of Illuminator of All Realities, which is godlike even in comparison to a Lord of Order.
Kismet and the other universal embodiments are called the Universal Intelligences, they exists in a level beyond reality
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"Like Kismet, Dominus once belonged to the all powerful Lords of Order. But Kismet was chosen above Dominus to assume the exalted status of Illuminator of All Realites"

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine then.

Are you willing and able to apply these revisions soon?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Here is the list of charecters who will be affected
Dr Fate
Trigon
Phantom Stranger
Mordru
Darkseid
Takion
Superman
Time Trapper
Superboy Prime
Yuga Khan
Highfather
Orion
Infinite Man

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Sandman31 is very busy with several different revisions though, so we need to wait for him to get the time to help us out.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

About the "explosion not of power, but of love". Fate still needed to create a barrier to defend from it. This implies the blast was equivalent to the Big Bang of this scale, just that it was caused by love and not power.

 

[Sandman31]

About the "explosion not of power, but of love". Fate still needed to create a barrier to defend from it. This implies the blast was equivalent to the Big Bang of this scale, just that it was caused by love and not power.

It was not cause by love, its an explosion of "love"
Just because Fate needed barriers to defend against it doesn't mean its suddenly a multiversal big bag. Its clearly something different and more complex than it.

Its not an explosion of power similar to the Big Bang, there were animals swimming in it which they wouldnt be able to do without getting fried if its a Big Bang esque explosion, or are those animals multiversal too? He also erected the barrier because there's so much love that it could burn your soul. The big bang isnt made of love nor does it burns your soul

I'm not saying that this is not a multiversal feat, because it definitely is, but this definitely much more complicated than a Big Bang type explosion, its much more metaphysical explosion so I dont agree with scaling Fate to 2-B just because he blocked so much love. I think that is too little when the explosion in question was stated to be not just an explosion but it something completely different, it may be enough if its a normal powerful explosion but its nothing like that

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Nabu remains 2-A tho right?

 

[Sandman31]

Nabu remains 2-A tho right?

Yeah

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also, didn't Time Trapper threaten to destroy "all possible futures"? I think that's 2-B. In fact, as high into 2-B as possible.

 

[Xearsay]

Also, didn't Time Trapper threaten to destroy "all possible futures"? I think that's 2-B. In fact, as high into 2-B as possible.

Do you have a scan of that? I recall something similar but I can’t find it.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Do you have a scan of that? I recall something similar but I can’t find it.

Found it https://localhost:6543/block_screen.html?id=f37d543b-82e4-4aca-b47c-0bb6deaba66e
Honestly should be 2-B almost 2-A.

 

[Sandman31]

Link doesn't work

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

possible futures
Now it works?

 

[Waka1979]

Sounds like he wasn't using his own power.

 

[Sandman31]

That's Pre Crisis I think

Also, I'm aware of the Jaxxon/Superman/Green Lantern feat.

Its a problematic feat because the future GLs energy was countered by the powers of Jaxxon and Supes and it was decided to be an outlier

Also, it wasn't Time Trapper's power, all Time Trapper did was made the combined energy of the future GL corps enter the Time Dimension. If he can do it by himself then he wouldn't need to that

 

[Xearsay]

Sounds like he wasn't using his own power.

That’s because he wasn’t. He was using a fight between Pre Crisis Superman and Jaxon Mighty to generate enough energy to wipe out all possible futures.

 

[Sandman31]

That’s because he wasn’t. He was using a fight between Pre Crisis Superman and Jaxon Mighty to generate enough energy to wipe out all possible futures.

He used the combined powers of the future GL corps to wipe out all possible futures. Jaxxon and Superman's power countered the GLs energies and restored the possible futures