Dr. Eggman (Game) Speed Reaction

[ElixirBlue]

Yes they do???? Literally every speed type in Heroes can make tornados for example, sure Sonic has special ones like Sonic Wind but the "make tornado by running in a circle" is a classic speed ability

What about non-"speed-types" who scale relative to Sonic's speed that I was referring to? You dodged my comment by mentioning "speed types" when I didn't mention "speed types" but the cast in general.

Eggman moving his mouth is not a "reaction", him trying to do something to avoid Sonic would be a reaction, literally people move their mouths to things they can't react everytime

Dr. Eggman being a dumbass by not moving out of the way in that scene is not a counterargument in this franchise (Sonic Help Me!). Already, that same scene you are using the counter Dr. Eggman's reaction speed also shows Base Dr. Eggman being superior to Amy Rose. Ignoring the Amy Rose part but saying "Eggman didn't move out of the way means he got blitzed therefore he doesn't scale" is really nitpicky, since you are trying to ignore the other part of a scene to try to prove a point.

Even then you have moments where Sonic blatantly blitzes Eggman such as this scene in Lost World

And you could prove Sonic took right there and not before cause... what animation?

People using the "you seriously believe Eggman holding the controls increase his reaction speed??????????" are wrong because that already happens everytime Eggman fights Super Sonic in a mech like the Time Eater, and yet when pilots a base mech he doesn't blitz base Sonic. Either Sonic=Super Sonic or his speed varies per mech

Most of the examples of Dr. Eggman fighting Super Sonic has him piloting a mech filled with new energy like the Power of the Stars and the Time Eater also prevented Dr. Eggman from getting erased from History so there is wiggle room logic for the Time Eater increasing Dr. Eggman's reaction speed. And Dr. Eggman in the Time Eater was swatting away Base Sonic too.

I guess you are right about Dr. Eggman shouldn't have reaction speed scaling to Super Sonic in Base cause of those examples, I'll give ya that.

 

[Oleggator]

Are you seriously using "Eggman outruns Sonic on foot" as an actual argument? Eggman is still inside those machines when he is "reacting" to Sonic, otherwise there would be no use to even pilot them.

No? I'm using not cutscene before Death Egg Robot battle I'm using THE Death Egg Robot battle, where Eggman have to actually press the buttons and other Boss battles where Eggman was in almost immobile mech. And no, he still have a use to pilot his machines because Speed equals not to AP. Eggman is physically weaker than Sonic but that doesn't mean he can't react to Sonic.

Even then you have moments where Sonic blatantly blitzes Eggman such as this scene in Lost World

Really out of context, because the cutscene was after final boss fight after which it's pretty much likely for Eggman to be unconscious, Sonic Riders one at least have some.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

This thread really reminds me I ought to make a thread about realistic expectations in fiction. Even if I think that it is very wrong to expect that kind of realism in fiction, I think it is high time for us to have rules about that.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

They can with the Jet planes, or at least military used ones, though admittedly this isn't something extreme like in Star Wars or something

If they had to maneuver closely while throwing through debris meters from each other, they won't.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If they had to maneuver closely while throwing through debris meters from each other, they won't.

That is true, and this is why they don't scale to the vehicle's speed

However, they can do manuvers from farther away, since that doesn't require Supersonic reactions

 

[Theuser789]

What about non-"speed-types" who scale relative to Sonic's speed that I was referring to? You dodged my comment by mentioning "speed types" when I didn't mention "speed types" but the cast in general.

Because they are not as fast as Sonic

Dr. Eggman being a dumbass by not moving out of the way in that scene is not a counterargument in this franchise (Sonic Help Me!). Already, that same scene you are using the counter Dr. Eggman's reaction speed also shows Base Dr. Eggman being superior to Amy Rose. Ignoring the Amy Rose part but saying "Eggman didn't move out of the way means he got blitzed therefore he doesn't scale" is really nitpicky, since you are trying to ignore the other part of a scene to try to prove a point.

Eggman capturing Amy happens off-screen, in the scene Eggman just picks her up from the bush, anyways whataboutism nor "bad writting" are valid arguments, Eggman still couldn't react to Sonic's speed in this scene, and you still have to prove Eggman even scaling in the first place

And you could prove Sonic took right there and not before cause... what animation?

Because we don't even see Sonic interact with Eggman while he is unconcious? Sonic beats the boss then goes talk with Tails, unless he took it while he beat Eggman, which is worse for the doctor. There's no animation either for Shadow to dodge the GUN commander shot and yet you still use it as evidence of a blitz

Most of the examples of Dr. Eggman fighting Super Sonic has him piloting a mech filled with new energy like the Power of the Stars and the Time Eater also prevented Dr. Eggman from getting erased from History so there is wiggle room logic for the Time Eater increasing Dr. Eggman's reaction speed. And Dr. Eggman in the Time Eater was swatting away Base Sonic too.

And the mechs Eggman fights against base Sonic also are powered up with energy too (Egg Dragoon, Mega Death Egg Robot), that's not an Super Sonic exclusive argument

No? I'm using not cutscene before Death Egg Robot battle I'm using THE Death Egg Robot battle, where Eggman have to actually press the buttons and other Boss battles where Eggman was in almost immobile mech. And no, he still have a use to pilot his machines because Speed equals not to AP. Eggman is physically weaker than Sonic but that doesn't mean he can't react to Sonic.

Prove he can first, the Death Egg Robot is not immobile and it is show to actually scale to Sonic, unlike base Eggman, Eggman also builds machines to keep up with Sonic as well

Really out of context, because the cutscene was after final boss fight after which it's pretty much likely for Eggman to be unconscious, Sonic Riders one at least have some.

The context is literally all there in the video, Sonic is not show nor implied to have touched Eggman while he was down

I still don't see proof of Eggman scaling to Sonic without any mechs

 

[Oleggator]

Prove he can first, the Death Egg Robot is not immobile and it is show to actually scale to Sonic, unlike base Eggman, Eggman also builds machines to keep up with Sonic as well.

To actually scale to Sonic because Eggman is physically not strong. He still have literally press buttons and control his mech. At that point I'm not even questioning you if you think that mechs AMP Eggman's reactions, I'm questioning you that you are really, really expecting to Eggman fight with Sonic fist to fist?

The context is literally all there in the video, Sonic is not show nor implied to have touched Eggman while he was down

I still don't see proof of Eggman scaling to Sonic without any mechs

No the context is not there. There is context.

If you are implying that Sonic took off Eggman's Jetpack's fuel literally after Eggman jumped than that ruins the moment when Eggman was holding Amy as hostage in SA2 for instance. Oh yeah Eggman also have captured Amy and Tails in Sonic Rivals without any mech, if you want some speed feat for Eggman without mech.

 

[Theuser789]

To actually scale to Sonic because Eggman is physically not strong. He still have literally press buttons and control his mech. At that point I'm not even questioning you if you think that mechs AMP Eggman's reactions, I'm questioning you that you are really, really expecting to Eggman fight with Sonic fist to fist?

Eggman pressing buttons doesn't change anything, he still only reacts to Sonic while in those robots, if you can argue his stats increase while in the Time Eater then they can increase while in the eggmobile (not canon, but even in the movie Eggman's reactions increase while in his mech than without it). Yes, if you are scaling base Eggman to Sonic then he needs direct feats to scale him, like in Archie

Also Sonic canonically gets stronger and faster per game, meanwhile Eggman doesn't, but his machines do, arguing that base Eggman reacts to Sonic is like arguing Classic Eggman already reacts to Forces Sonic in speed

No the context is not there. There is context.

I posted the same video, I never hid any context like you are implying, nothing you posted shows Sonic robbing Eggman's jetpack while he is unconscious

If you are implying that Sonic took off Eggman's Jetpack's fuel literally after Eggman jumped than that ruins the moment when Eggman was holding Amy as hostage in SA2 for instance. Oh yeah Eggman also have captured Amy and Tails in Sonic Rivals without any mech, if you want some speed feat for Eggman without mech.

Pure whataboutism, those two moments are completely different, Eggman actualy had a gun pointed at Amy, while in the Egg Walker, meanwhile here Eggman is by himself, furthermore Sonic went there on purpose to trick him by giving the fake emerald. Eggman Nega captures Tails and Amy offscreen using a special machine that turns people into cards, completely different and not a speed feat

 

[Oleggator]

Eggman pressing buttons doesn't change anything, he still only reacts to Sonic while in those robots, if you can argue his stats increase while in the Time Eater then they can increase while in the eggmobile (not canon, but even in the movie Eggman's reactions increase while in his mech than without it). Yes, if you are scaling base Eggman to Sonic then he needs direct feats to scale him, like in Archie.

His stats don't increase while in the Time Eater. That's like saying that I'm by myself is tank level because I'm inside of tank (mech specifically was AMPd by Sonic's hair, it made sense for Eggman to have speed amp in mech in paramount sonic). If I'm scaling Eggman's AP, however on this case speed is the thing that argued to be scaled.

Also Sonic canonically gets stronger and faster per game, meanwhile Eggman doesn't, but his machines do, arguing that base Eggman reacts to Sonic is like arguing Classic Eggman already reacts to Forces Sonic in speed.

Though that doesn't stops Classic Sonic from beating Modern Eggman's machine canonically.

I posted the same video, I never hid any context like you are implying, nothing you posted shows Sonic robbing Eggman's jetpack while he is unconscious.

As well as there nothing you posted shows Sonic robbing posted literally at moment Eggman jumped.

Pure whataboutism, those two moments are completely different, Eggman actualy had a gun pointed at Amy, while in the Egg Walker, meanwhile here Eggman is by himself, furthermore Sonic went there on purpose to trick him by giving the fake emerald. Eggman Nega captures Tails and Amy offscreen using a special machine that turns people into cards, completely different and not a speed feat

So you're implying by that logic, that me sitting on the car is faster than me standing. Literally what you're trying to say is that there could be a difference in SA2 if Eggman held a gun while standing. This doesn't make any logical sense. Saying Sonic trying to trick could be enough as fair argument alone but that first part really ruins it. Even then Sonic wanting to trick Eggman further implies that Sonic couldn't blitz sitting Eggman.
Also lol no Eggman simply used a camera:
There was a machine though just a giant camera:
So even if you're implying that there's giant camera there's still a small one which Eggman used. Even if you'll argue it's Eggman Nega who did that Eggman technically still can scale to him.

(Oh yeah remember Sonic Unleashed beginning cutscene....? The one where Eggman captured Super Sonic and stuff? If we can consider that as an outlier we can consider base Eggman reacting to Super Sonic in other mechs as well.)

 

[Theuser789]

His stats don't increase while in the Time Eater. That's like saying that I'm by myself is tank level because I'm inside of tank (mech specifically was AMPd by Sonic's hair, it made sense for Eggman to have speed amp in mech in paramount sonic). If I'm scaling Eggman's AP, however on this case speed is the thing that argued to be scaled.

Then you are arguing Eggman's reactions scale to high end Super Sonic speed which would allow him to blitz base Sonic, it breaks the narrative simply to wank Eggman

As well as there nothing you posted shows Sonic robbing posted literally at moment Eggman jumped.

The fact Sonic shows the object right when Eggman's jetpack fails?

So you're implying by that logic, that me sitting on the car is faster than me standing. Literally what you're trying to say is that there could be a difference in SA2 if Eggman held a gun while standing. This doesn't make any logical sense. Saying Sonic trying to trick could be enough as fair argument alone but that first part really ruins it. Even then Sonic wanting to trick Eggman further implies that Sonic couldn't blitz sitting Eggman.
Also lol no Eggman simply used a camera:

You are clearly not understanding my point, Eggman just sitting on his mech doesn't increase his reactions, however the gun he used was the actual threat to Amy, not that Eggman standing or sitting would make a difference. Sonic wanted to trick him to kill two birds with one stone, to save Amy and then give the fake emerald to sabotage him, Sonic says this himself, you biased view of wanting Eggman to be fast is blindinv you to the story

So even if you're implying that there's giant camera there's still a small one which Eggman used. Even if you'll argue it's Eggman Nega who did that Eggman technically still can scale to him.

Eggman Nega used a special camera, him using this object to capture Tails and Amy offscreen isn't a speed feat for him, it's a feat for the camera

(Oh yeah remember Sonic Unleashed beginning cutscene....? The one where Eggman captured Super Sonic and stuff? If we can consider that as an outlier we can consider base Eggman reacting to Super Sonic in other mechs as well.)

A Super Sonic that was off guard and got tricked, there's no outlier here because of the context

Just because something happens in a story doesn't mean "X scales to Y", context, plot, and the overall lore matters

There's still no feat of Eggman reacting to Sonic, meanwhile there's feats of him not reacting to Sonic there are being excused in this very moment

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

At the very least we all agree (Base) Eggman's reactions scale to Sonic, correct?

 

[Theuser789]

No, we don't, I agree Eggman's reactions scale depending on which mech he is, unless he got feats for base

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

No, we don't, I agree Eggman's reactions scale depending on which mech he is, unless he got feats for base

It makes absolutely no sense for his reaction to be amped by mechs

 

[Shadyboi0]

Agree with the premise.

 

[Theuser789]

It makes absolutely no sense for his reaction to be amped by mechs

That's not an argument, I explained in my posts why it makes the most sense

 

[ElixirBlue]

Eggman capturing Amy happens off-screen, in the scene Eggman just picks her up from the bush, anyways whataboutism nor "bad writting" are valid arguments, Eggman still couldn't react to Sonic's speed in this scene, and you still have to prove Eggman even scaling in the first place

Amy Rose is literally awake in that scene Dr. Eggman has holding her hostage and Eggman reacted as Sonic was falling down at him.

Thats enough talking about that scene, User.

There's no animation either for Shadow to dodge the GUN commander shot and yet you still use it as evidence of a blitz

Yes there is. Gun Commander points the Gun at Shadow, fires, and is surprise Shadow is gone and Shadow had suddenly appeared behind him which the Gun Commander reacted in surprise. Thats the definition of a blitz.

Far more of the definition than Sonic never moving from his spot next to Tails holding the Jet fuel that powered Eggman's jet.

Eggman just sitting on his mech doesn't increase his reactions, however the gun he used was the actual threat to Amy, Sonic wanted ... to save Amy

... the gun being able to harm Amy or not doesn't matter if Eggman has Superhuman reaction to FTL characters. Eggman would be too slow to pull the trigger.

Eggman Nega used a special camera, him using this object to capture Tails and Amy offscreen isn't a speed feat for him, it's a feat for the camera

Superhuman speed of pressing a button and its flash vs Faster than Light characters. Headcanon makes sense not...

Because we don't even see Sonic interact with Eggman while he is unconscious?

Fade to black, honestly, how Dr. Eggman got to the Control Area from the boss fight Location is a mystery if Sonic didn't even interact with Dr. Eggman while he was unconscious

OK, 3 things:

1. Eggman told Sonic about the Jet before the boss fight

2. Eggman was unconscious after the Boss fight and had to have been carried from his mech and the boss fight location to rest there at the beginning of the scene at the Control Area

3. Sonic never moved from his spot next to Tails since Eggman woke, holding Eggman's Jet fuel

The Argument you are trying to present is that Sonic wasn't aware of the Jet till the moment Eggman pulled it out and then blitzed to take it because there are no other possibility for Sonic to take it, by your argument.

And the mechs Eggman fights against base Sonic also are powered up with energy too (Egg Dragoon, Mega Death Egg Robot), that's not an Super Sonic exclusive argument

What kind of energy? Most of the bosses Eggman uses against Super Sonic were powered by Mystical Energy. Is it the same energy Tails used for his mech in SA2 to amp himself up or does headcanon make Tails use a "different kind of energy" from Eggman in SA2?



I'm not scaling Dr. Eggman's reaction speed to Super Sonic

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

That's not an argument, I explained in my posts why it makes the most sense

You didn't explain anything. If the mech was powered by chaos emeralds, maybe. But we need proof of his vehicles somehow making him react and press buttons faster

 

[Theuser789]

Amy Rose is literally awake in that scene Dr. Eggman has holding her hostage and Eggman reacted as Sonic was falling down at him.

Thats enough talking about that scene, User.

Amy was clearly already captured because he just picks her up from the bush and she doesn't even react, opening a mouth is not a reaction, if a car was running at you at 300 km/h you would also open your mouth before being ran over. Going to take the bold part as a concession that you can't debunk this anti-feat, since you want to stop talking about a topic that is not finished

Yes there is. Gun Commander points the Gun at Shadow, fires, and is surprise Shadow is gone and Shadow had suddenly appeared behind him which the Gun Commander reacted in surprise. Thats the definition of a blitz.

Far more of the definition than Sonic never moving from his spot next to Tails holding the Jet fuel that powered Eggman's jet.

That's literally not an animation, that's just context/interpretation, since we are just making up interpretations that fit our agenda then Shadow simply used Chaos Control then, you are just being biased with the scenes since you like Eggman more, the animation here is that Eggman was going to use his jetpack, but right when he used it Sonic picked the piece to screw him over

... the gun being able to harm Amy or not doesn't matter if Eggman has Superhuman reaction to FTL characters. Eggman would be too slow to pull the trigger.

First Eggman captured Amy to lure Sonic there, so how fast he could pull the trigger is irrelevant, second when Sonic got there he thought tricking Eggman would be a better idea, third Eggman's technology is fictional, it simply could work different than a real life gun, Sonic being faster than Eggman is the premise of the series, the one we are trying to break with proof such as "Eggman scales to Sonic... because he does"

Superhuman speed of pressing a button and its flash vs Faster than Light characters. Headcanon makes sense not...

Nice strawman, Eggman Nega used the camera off-screen he could have captured them in a multitude of ways, this is especially hypocritical if you look at your next comment:

Fade to black, honestly, how Dr. Eggman got to the Control Area from the boss fight Location is a mystery if Sonic didn't even interact with Dr. Eggman while he was unconscious

OK, 3 things:

1. Eggman told Sonic about the Jet before the boss fight

2. Eggman was unconscious after the Boss fight and had to have been carried from his mech and the boss fight location to rest there at the beginning of the scene at the Control Area

3. Sonic never moved from his spot next to Tails since Eggman woke, holding Eggman's Jet fuel

The Argument you are trying to present is that Sonic wasn't aware of the Jet till the moment Eggman pulled it out and then blitzed to take it because there are no other possibility for Sonic to take it, by your argument.

So if it's to wank Eggman's speed than it means Eggman must have walked up to Amy and Tails and blitzed them and nothing else happens, but when it debunks the E.G.G.M.A.N having Sonic speed then multiples things could have happened and we cannot say the most simple and logical thing happened because has to have stolen from Eggman's unconscious body although Orbot and Cubot where there because must be fast and can't just be slow. Yeah, pure hypocrisy

Also second is just wrong, Eggman didn't need to be carried when that was when where the fight took place, you are literally making shit up to make your argument better

What kind of energy? Most of the bosses Eggman uses against Super Sonic were powered by Mystical Energy. Is it the same energy Tails used for his mech in SA2 to amp himself up or does headcanon make Tails use a "different kind of energy" from Eggman in SA2?

The Egg Dragoon is powered by Dark Gaia, the Mega Death Egg Robot is powered by the Phantom Ruby, the 3&K final boss is powered by the ME, it's not just Super Sonic mechs who are powered up by "Mystical Energy" , Tails has actual feats in his base to scale him to Sonic in reactions, unlike Eggman, so this whataboutism doesn't work, if you showed feats of base Eggman reacting to the main characters in combat then this discussion wouldn't be happening

I'm not scaling Dr. Eggman's reaction speed to Super Sonic

Then you concede that Eggman's machnies can amp him and therefore you can't just cherrypick what scales and what doesn't

In fact I shouldn't even be humoring this debate, this is a clear shift of the burden of proof in trying to make me prove (base) Eggman doesn't scale and that it depends on the mechs (something you conceded to), versus you guys actually proving he scales

Goddamit, Eggman doesn't even react to a rock a kid throwns, and yet we are saying this guy has faster than light reactions because while using a fictional mech that amps all his other stats he can fight a blue hedgehog who actually has those feats, when the entire narrative of the series is that this hedgehog is the fastest thing alive and this egg shaped human needs to use his genius and inventions to fight against him


In this same scene he can't react to Sonic destroying his mechs and is super confused until Sonic stops, and yet you are trying to scale him if with zero feats?

 

[JJSliderman]

Could be an inconsistency.

Eggman fights Shadow and Shade in Chronicles

 

[Theuser789]

Actually yeah, Eggman does fight as a party member in Chronicles, although he only fights against badniks, but that unironically is a feat of him reacting together with the main cast in base, so I am fine with him scaling to reactions them, I don't think it's a outler either since he only attacks with mechs

 

[JJSliderman]

I mean you can put Eggman in the party to fight Shadow and Shade.

 

[Theuser789]

I don't think you can, he isn't available to those two fights, I am pretty sure he only joins in the metropolis chapter

Edit: Nevermind, he is a party member for those chapters, I guess more evidence his dura/reactions scale

 

[ElixirBlue]

Oh right, Sonic Chronicles uses Base Eggman as a party character. I never played the game so it past me.

 

[JJSliderman]

You can actually hurt Shadow by throwing a wrench at him too.
Maybe Base Eggman could get AP scaling with weaponry since that seems fairly consistent.

 

[Theuser789]

That is fine but I think it would **** up the fodder scaling, unless you argue their weapons also scale

 

[JJSliderman]

Maybe something to discuss in the future

 

[ElixirBlue]

That is fine but I think it would **** up the fodder scaling, unless you argue their weapons also scale

Something to discuss in the future. I think narratively the fodders scale, but I'm far from ready to die on that hill like Dr. Eggman's Speed Reaction.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

I think narratively the fodders scale

Same

 

[Ailamiona]

That was literally because of his speed

Very late reply, but every character can make tornadoes in Riders with Extreme Gear and it only consumes Air, even Eggman and the fodder-bots can do this. So it's not really because of speed that Sonic made the tornado, but hax from the Blue Star 2. Don't think Eggman scales to it either way

 

[Theuser789]

Oh, ok then, thanks

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bumpy

(The Bumps start now)

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

So I guess we’re all in agreement now then?

 

[ShakeResounding]

For Eggman scaling to the Base Cast, I believe so. But Super Sonic? Nah, I agree fully with User here. THAT is nonsense.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

For Eggman scaling to the Base Cast, I believe so. But Super Sonic? Nah, I agree fully with User here. THAT is nonsense.

No one was really trying to scale him to Super though. User had problems with Eggman’s reactions scaling to base cast speeds

 

[Theuser789]

Base Eggman is fine to scale because of Chronicles

 

[ElixirBlue]

User's "anti-reasoning" for Dr. Eggman without Chronicles is still kinda sus.

Looks like things are resolving. Now waiting for another staff member.

 

[Theuser789]

No it's not lol, claims need proof, that's all

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Not to well versed in Sonic but I guess Eggman's reactions scaling to base Sonic is fine.