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Downstreamers VS Death of The Endless
- Thread starter ZacharyGrossman273
- Start date
Highest tier allowed, GO!
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Let's look at the Downstreamers' profile and... Oh boy...
Well, that Absolute Invulnerability sure looks menacing, as well as that regen and omniscience. But, I think Death's Conceptual Manipulation (as well as being...you know... The Idea of Death given an anthropomorphic form) should take this. Otherwise, I say inconclusive because I don't see a way for the Downstremears to actually hurt her.
Well, that Absolute Invulnerability sure looks menacing, as well as that regen and omniscience. But, I think Death's Conceptual Manipulation (as well as being...you know... The Idea of Death given an anthropomorphic form) should take this. Otherwise, I say inconclusive because I don't see a way for the Downstremears to actually hurt her.
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Well, I read that apparently Death triumphs over PR!Beyonder, and Downstreamers are embodiment of multiverse like Beyonder in a way, so...LephyrTheRevanchist said:
But hmm, 'Idea of Death' huh... Downstreamers are already kinda deader than dead. At high-end interpretation they'd simply regen over and over... or even unaffected by 'Idea of Death' (DS made Level IV Multiverse, which presumably contains something like Plato's Realm of Ideas, and DS restructured the whole thing. So that'd make them have experience with Conceptual thingies, so they'd not be totally powerless in front of Death)
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@Bla
Oh, I don't doubt they aren't powerless. That regen+invulnerability is pretty much what they need to survive Death. The thing is, Death can kill even Ideas. So, if she can apply that to them... Then is pretty much over, imo. If she can't, tho, is basically inconclusive.
Oh, I don't doubt they aren't powerless. That regen+invulnerability is pretty much what they need to survive Death. The thing is, Death can kill even Ideas. So, if she can apply that to them... Then is pretty much over, imo. If she can't, tho, is basically inconclusive.
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Well, the problem for that 'Death-ing Concepts' thing is DS made Level IV Multiverse.
A quote from another forums : [Level IV multiverse if said multiverse contains universes with different structures of mathematics than ours, contains sets, structures, or systems that exist beyond spacetime, duality, or existence and nonexistence, contains universes with different fundamental laws of physics than ours, contains universes with different laws of logic or metaphysics than ours, contains universes with wholly alien or incomprehensible concepts, or contains impossible worlds.]
Dunno if that interpretation is true or not but if it is, Any kind of systems, even at metaphysical levels can be radically different for all universes. And Downstreamers created infinite amount of this Level IV Multiverse. So the assumption that they made 'Impossible Universes' may actually be true.
Ehm, basically Manifoldverse has a scientific version of Composite Hierarchy. All kind of cosmologies are a go.
And Downstreamers transcend such Level IV Multiverse.
This would make Downstreamers straight up Tier 1-A. Even concepts which are incomprehensible for humans are just playthings to them. Which make them beyond all Concepts/Ideas... including Death.
Of course Death also have high-end of her own. She simply won't die before all creation is destroyed.
A quote from another forums : [Level IV multiverse if said multiverse contains universes with different structures of mathematics than ours, contains sets, structures, or systems that exist beyond spacetime, duality, or existence and nonexistence, contains universes with different fundamental laws of physics than ours, contains universes with different laws of logic or metaphysics than ours, contains universes with wholly alien or incomprehensible concepts, or contains impossible worlds.]
Dunno if that interpretation is true or not but if it is, Any kind of systems, even at metaphysical levels can be radically different for all universes. And Downstreamers created infinite amount of this Level IV Multiverse. So the assumption that they made 'Impossible Universes' may actually be true.
Ehm, basically Manifoldverse has a scientific version of Composite Hierarchy. All kind of cosmologies are a go.
And Downstreamers transcend such Level IV Multiverse.
This would make Downstreamers straight up Tier 1-A. Even concepts which are incomprehensible for humans are just playthings to them. Which make them beyond all Concepts/Ideas... including Death.
Of course Death also have high-end of her own. She simply won't die before all creation is destroyed.
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@Bla
You should make a revision Thread for them, then.
You should make a revision Thread for them, then.
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I think I will. If it is accepted, then it is.
but if it isn't (like how I failed to upgrade Whoniverse), either Death has it in the bag, or stalemate.
It seems I failed in my endeavor to upgrade DS to Tier 1-A (https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/587498). Making Death otE vs DS became fair game again.
Okay, Antvasima said DS should be 'At least High 1-B', essentially same tier as Destiny of the Endless. Same guy who would be claimed by Death at the end of DC Multiverse.
Now you might think DS are automatically get rekt since Death can even end 'At least High 1-B' chara like Destiny. Well, the problem is DS are also pretty much embodiment of all things in the Manifold. Which means include concepts inside it, such as wave-function, phase space (similar to wave-function in a way it contains all possible states a universe could take), and etc.
They have insane regen/durability. They, like Death, simply won't die. What happens if Death tries to 'Death-ing' DS? Well, DS did once got their timelines mucked up, their non-corporeal form got eradicated and totality of manifoldverse got destroyed. They still come back. Now you might argue that's not 'Conceptual Death', well, total destruction of Level IV Multiverse (which should contains all kind of cosmologies) would include 'concepts'/wave-functions/ideas. You can't get anymore 'Dead' than that... Well, you can but that'd go into Tier 1-A territory.
They can also 'comprehend manifold as a whole', combine that with 'know all possible states a universe could take' and 'know things before they happen' they would know of Death's abilities and all. And do all required steps to counter said abilities.
DS also could make Level IV Multiverse many times over (infinite). So their creation/destruction capability is also no joke. They might already created and destroyed countless 'Death of the Endless' accidentally.
So yes, I'm voting for DS' win.
but if it isn't (like how I failed to upgrade Whoniverse), either Death has it in the bag, or stalemate.
It seems I failed in my endeavor to upgrade DS to Tier 1-A (https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/587498). Making Death otE vs DS became fair game again.
Okay, Antvasima said DS should be 'At least High 1-B', essentially same tier as Destiny of the Endless. Same guy who would be claimed by Death at the end of DC Multiverse.
Now you might think DS are automatically get rekt since Death can even end 'At least High 1-B' chara like Destiny. Well, the problem is DS are also pretty much embodiment of all things in the Manifold. Which means include concepts inside it, such as wave-function, phase space (similar to wave-function in a way it contains all possible states a universe could take), and etc.
They have insane regen/durability. They, like Death, simply won't die. What happens if Death tries to 'Death-ing' DS? Well, DS did once got their timelines mucked up, their non-corporeal form got eradicated and totality of manifoldverse got destroyed. They still come back. Now you might argue that's not 'Conceptual Death', well, total destruction of Level IV Multiverse (which should contains all kind of cosmologies) would include 'concepts'/wave-functions/ideas. You can't get anymore 'Dead' than that... Well, you can but that'd go into Tier 1-A territory.
They can also 'comprehend manifold as a whole', combine that with 'know all possible states a universe could take' and 'know things before they happen' they would know of Death's abilities and all. And do all required steps to counter said abilities.
DS also could make Level IV Multiverse many times over (infinite). So their creation/destruction capability is also no joke. They might already created and destroyed countless 'Death of the Endless' accidentally.
So yes, I'm voting for DS' win.
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@Bla
Destiny and Dream has same regen as them. Death ended both just by touching them.
Destiny and Dream has same regen as them. Death ended both just by touching them.
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High Godly Regen>>>Mid Godly Regen
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Straight from all of The Endless' profiles: "mid-godly or high-godly"LoyalservantofInti said:
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Which is rather unusual. It should be "at least Mid godly"
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@Loyal
Same response I gave to Bla: Make a Revision Thread.
I still stand on inconclusive if Death can't actually kill them.
Same response I gave to Bla: Make a Revision Thread.
I still stand on inconclusive if Death can't actually kill them.
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Well, if all charas have High-Godly and Death can end all High-Godly regen with a touch then Death wins (I still vote for DS win though, hehe, no matter how hopeless it may seem).
(I'm tempted to use Azathoth's 'Likely Tier 1-A' interpretation (OP does allow 'high-end'), but Antvasima didn't agree so that's out I guess.)
(I'm tempted to use Azathoth's 'Likely Tier 1-A' interpretation (OP does allow 'high-end'), but Antvasima didn't agree so that's out I guess.)
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I don't think Destroying any type of multiverse will affect Death because even if you escaped into The Void, a place beyond any definition of space and time or into Mother Night's realm which is beyond every event horizon existing in "Untime and Unspace" a complete emptiness devoid space,time,thoughts,information or any other difinition you still can't escape Death
The Presence, a higher end 1-A was created because of dreams and because dreams can retroactively shape Creation. All the Endless are clearly vastly below The Presence,Michael and Lucifer but the factDream or dreams is capable of causing the creation of a 1-A character shows just how powerful the Endless are
Also because i'm a Sandman fanboy
The Presence, a higher end 1-A was created because of dreams and because dreams can retroactively shape Creation. All the Endless are clearly vastly below The Presence,Michael and Lucifer but the factDream or dreams is capable of causing the creation of a 1-A character shows just how powerful the Endless are
Also because i'm a Sandman fanboy
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@Sandman
kind of funny though, how Dream is weaker than Presence. A creation of Dreaming.
Dream 'made' Presence. so Death>Presence
Destiny is 'most powerful' able to affect a Tier 1-A Lucifer. So Destiny=Lucifer
Death>Presence+Lucifer. DC POwerscaling is weird.
Yes, you can't escape Death indeed (nothing said about 'regenerating' from it). I have no qualms with DS losing if Death really is that powerful. Even if DS is a 'Tier 1-A' that still won't give DS a win after all.
kind of funny though, how Dream is weaker than Presence. A creation of Dreaming.
Dream 'made' Presence. so Death>Presence
Destiny is 'most powerful' able to affect a Tier 1-A Lucifer. So Destiny=Lucifer
Death>Presence+Lucifer. DC POwerscaling is weird.
Yes, you can't escape Death indeed (nothing said about 'regenerating' from it). I have no qualms with DS losing if Death really is that powerful. Even if DS is a 'Tier 1-A' that still won't give DS a win after all.
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@BlaLig
If Downstreamers are really 1-A,they can defeat Death but if they're not I think it's either inconclusive or Death wins
The Presence,Lucifer,Michael and probably Gabriel are more powerful than any of The Endless including Destiny and Death
Yeah, it's really confusing and maybe someone who knows about this more than I do can explain it better
If Downstreamers are really 1-A,they can defeat Death but if they're not I think it's either inconclusive or Death wins
The Presence,Lucifer,Michael and probably Gabriel are more powerful than any of The Endless including Destiny and Death
Yeah, it's really confusing and maybe someone who knows about this more than I do can explain it better
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@Sandma
'If Downstreamers are really 1-A,they can defeat Death but if they're not I think it's either inconclusive or Death wins '
unfortunately DS aren't Tier 1-A
'The Presence,Lucifer,Michael and probably Gabriel are more powerful than any of The Endless including Destiny and Death '
hmm, that so...
'Yeah, it's really confusing and maybe someone who knows about this more than I do can explain it better '
haha, you explained it good enough. The Endless are only limited by their duty and rules IIRC. They could 'hang out' with Tier 1-As. So I suppose they're nearer to Tier 1-A than most beings in DC
'If Downstreamers are really 1-A,they can defeat Death but if they're not I think it's either inconclusive or Death wins '
unfortunately DS aren't Tier 1-A
'The Presence,Lucifer,Michael and probably Gabriel are more powerful than any of The Endless including Destiny and Death '
hmm, that so...
'Yeah, it's really confusing and maybe someone who knows about this more than I do can explain it better '
haha, you explained it good enough. The Endless are only limited by their duty and rules IIRC. They could 'hang out' with Tier 1-As. So I suppose they're nearer to Tier 1-A than most beings in DC
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@BlaLig
yep, they were actually rated as 1-A before but they got downgraded
yep, they were actually rated as 1-A before but they got downgraded
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@Sandma
well, Endless canonically could mess with beings like Lucifer so their past rating isn't really unwarranted I guess. And they're children of two Tier 1-As, Night and Time.
DS too, they almost have Tier 1-A, but lack evidence to show for it. Only implication. being 'On top of endless hierarchy of life and existences'.
Hmm, This Vs is more fitting that I thought. DS the Lifemakers and Death the Deathbringer, endless inconclusive battle, hehe.
well, Endless canonically could mess with beings like Lucifer so their past rating isn't really unwarranted I guess. And they're children of two Tier 1-As, Night and Time.
DS too, they almost have Tier 1-A, but lack evidence to show for it. Only implication. being 'On top of endless hierarchy of life and existences'.
Hmm, This Vs is more fitting that I thought. DS the Lifemakers and Death the Deathbringer, endless inconclusive battle, hehe.
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Death is a part of High 1-B collective. Downstreamers are High 1-B collective.
Entire collective > 1 individual.
But on the other hand it is very hard to compare higher dimensional things if they are from the same level. So stalemate. (We may put 1 Downstreamer against the Endless collective and it would be a stalemate also
)
Entire collective > 1 individual.
But on the other hand it is very hard to compare higher dimensional things if they are from the same level. So stalemate. (We may put 1 Downstreamer against the Endless collective and it would be a stalemate also
)
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@Jockey Well, you're right in a way that Downstreamers are a race made up entirely of Endlesses, but maybe what TheSandman and Lephyr meant is that number is irrelevant if Death can just one-shot them all (since one man with a rifle>>>>entire town population)
But Downstreamers are pretty stubborn too, and if you already read Restorator's post I quoted on my thread on other forums, you'd already know that just one Type 4 Multiverse could contain whole DCverse, so...
But Downstreamers are pretty stubborn too, and if you already read Restorator's post I quoted on my thread on other forums, you'd already know that just one Type 4 Multiverse could contain whole DCverse, so...
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It's not like Death is going to fight them mano o mano, Death doesn't fight like that ( well, she never fights...) she's a concept, not just the concept of Death but the concept of the ultimate end of everything even to characters that are atleast as strong as the Downstreamers and the only characters that were shown to be beyond Death are tier 1-A charactersJockey-1337 said:Death is a part of High 1-B collective. Downstreamers are High 1-B collective.
Entire collective > 1 individual.
But on the other hand it is very hard to compare higher dimensional things if they are from the same level. So stalemate. (We may put 1 Downstreamer against the Endless collective and it would be a stalemate also
and this is why numbers are irrevelant( numbers are not enough when comparing characters as powerful as these two) when it's about characters this powerful
Death is a part of a High-1B collective that she's going to claim in the end.It can contain most of DCverse but not The realms of Time and Night
Too many Dreams
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Isn't Death like above all the concepts in the reality including the embodiments of spatial dimensions , stars , universes , galaxies which exists beyond the existence ?
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Yeah, they were really afraid of Death and those embodiments live in a place called the City of Stars which is described as a place"above the real"
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@Jockey
As Bla already said, and was expanded by Sandman, it doesn't really matter how many are of them. Can they actually do anything to her and viceversa... That's the question. And as Sandman showed, she must likely can do a thing to them. But also, as Bla has said, they most likely can also do something to her. Then it comes down to feats, and Death has, at least, two that places her above character that are equal (maybe a bit lower...?) to the Downstreamers.
Like I said at the beginning... Death wins or is an Endless (jokes are fun) stalemate. Or well, that's what I think.
As Bla already said, and was expanded by Sandman, it doesn't really matter how many are of them. Can they actually do anything to her and viceversa... That's the question. And as Sandman showed, she must likely can do a thing to them. But also, as Bla has said, they most likely can also do something to her. Then it comes down to feats, and Death has, at least, two that places her above character that are equal (maybe a bit lower...?) to the Downstreamers.
Like I said at the beginning... Death wins or is an Endless (jokes are fun) stalemate. Or well, that's what I think.
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Downstreamers can counter her whatever tricks, they can do everything which is possible mathematically.
Stalemate then?
Stalemate then?
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Based on the profile, Death has the advantage with Concept Manipulation. Everything else, they simply negate each other.
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Bump
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Well, if you want to argue about conceptual, as I already said, Downstreamers would presumable have something similar to that, 'realm of concepts' or 'metaphysics'. The former is Realm of Plato and the latter is universes with Holographic principle. Both deals with 'Metaphysics' since manipulating Realm of Plato or Holographic hypersphere would mean manipulating 'concepts' itself.
The reason why DS' page doesn't contain Concept Manipulation is because its not their 'speciality' or 'signature'.
Or Downstreamers could just drown Death in 'Ain'. Absolute "Nothing". Not made out of concept of 'Nothing' but literally is simply 'not'. Not even boundlessness, not everything, not nothing, just "not".
[Existence of nothing would be completely logically probable. And we are not talking here about empty space whose existence is also impossible in our universe because of quantum mechanics. But we can at least imagine such an empty space. Yet, our concern here is complete nothingness, not an empty space. The existence of such nothingness will make everything very simple. No physical laws in operation, no matter in our concern, neither space nor time whatsoever. Leibniz's question takes its central place in the above reasoning; why would not nothingness exist?
And here we return to our mathematical universe hypothesis in accordance with which nothingness would exist. And not only would it exist, but a universe, consisting of nothing, must also be included in our Multiverse since its existence is logically consistent. There would not be imbalance between something and nothing in this model; universes consisting of both something and nothing would be parts of this all-embracing conglomerate.]
Since 'nothing' doesn't contradict itself, it would be within DS' ability to 'create'.
Heheh, it'd like trying to drown Death in Void/Source. Death could survive drowning in there IIRC but DS could go for stalemate.
The reason why DS' page doesn't contain Concept Manipulation is because its not their 'speciality' or 'signature'.
Or Downstreamers could just drown Death in 'Ain'. Absolute "Nothing". Not made out of concept of 'Nothing' but literally is simply 'not'. Not even boundlessness, not everything, not nothing, just "not".
[Existence of nothing would be completely logically probable. And we are not talking here about empty space whose existence is also impossible in our universe because of quantum mechanics. But we can at least imagine such an empty space. Yet, our concern here is complete nothingness, not an empty space. The existence of such nothingness will make everything very simple. No physical laws in operation, no matter in our concern, neither space nor time whatsoever. Leibniz's question takes its central place in the above reasoning; why would not nothingness exist?
And here we return to our mathematical universe hypothesis in accordance with which nothingness would exist. And not only would it exist, but a universe, consisting of nothing, must also be included in our Multiverse since its existence is logically consistent. There would not be imbalance between something and nothing in this model; universes consisting of both something and nothing would be parts of this all-embracing conglomerate.]
Since 'nothing' doesn't contradict itself, it would be within DS' ability to 'create'.
Heheh, it'd like trying to drown Death in Void/Source. Death could survive drowning in there IIRC but DS could go for stalemate.
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Bump
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Ok, then why is it a "stalemate"?BlaLig said:
Control over many concepts > control over 1 concept
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@Jockey
Death doesn't have power over a single concept. She can kill ideas, and without them, there are no concepts.
Death doesn't have power over a single concept. She can kill ideas, and without them, there are no concepts.
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Death itself is just a 1 concept.LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Also are there proofs for saying "Death have power over many concepts"? We know there are other members of The Endless.
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Again... She kill ideas. Without ideas, there can't be concepts.
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It seems to me like NLF.LephyrTheRevanchist said:
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How? xD
Her work is to end things, give them Death. She stated that when she stopped doing her work, even ideas wouldn't die. (I will search for the scans so that there is no doubt) You seem to think that Death can only take life as in humans, plants and animals. We are dealing with a concept, presented by an idea (The Endless are described as point of views) that even other ideas "die"-out. Is not farfetched. Then we have The Pressence describing existence (It's Creation) as an Infinite-Layered one.
Edit: Oh, and BTW, she is not "only" Death. She also represents Life, stated by Destruction, implied as she visits all new borns, and showed when she gave life to a pile of dirt the Endless (and her) created so that they could carry out Morpheus' funeral.
Her work is to end things, give them Death. She stated that when she stopped doing her work, even ideas wouldn't die. (I will search for the scans so that there is no doubt) You seem to think that Death can only take life as in humans, plants and animals. We are dealing with a concept, presented by an idea (The Endless are described as point of views) that even other ideas "die"-out. Is not farfetched. Then we have The Pressence describing existence (It's Creation) as an Infinite-Layered one.
Edit: Oh, and BTW, she is not "only" Death. She also represents Life, stated by Destruction, implied as she visits all new borns, and showed when she gave life to a pile of dirt the Endless (and her) created so that they could carry out Morpheus' funeral.
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From Vertigo: Winter's Edge #2
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My vote goes to Death everything engulfing the whole creation in to Darkness / Night including 1A beings like his Father Time who existed before the beginning of all versions of creation and all the concepts that makes the creation . Though their parents are created from the void nothingness released by Michaels power during the creation moment she is the only abstract who could able to slightly effect lucifer ( who is well beyond her lvl ) .
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Still Downstreamers or stalemate IMO.
Reasons:
1) Their numbers. Collective vs collective would be more fair fight.
2) Their power. Downstreamers are 1-A possibly
3) Their nature.
"Possibly Transduality for Post-FVC form (They presumably created and transcend the 'ultimate reality' which contains mathematical entities/concepts/ideas which are responsible for existence of all things in reality. Which would presumably include 'nondual planes' or universes not governed by 'binary logic', i.e : universes which are governed by 'multi-valued logic')"
Reasons:
1) Their numbers. Collective vs collective would be more fair fight.
2) Their power. Downstreamers are 1-A possibly
3) Their nature.
"Possibly Transduality for Post-FVC form (They presumably created and transcend the 'ultimate reality' which contains mathematical entities/concepts/ideas which are responsible for existence of all things in reality. Which would presumably include 'nondual planes' or universes not governed by 'binary logic', i.e : universes which are governed by 'multi-valued logic')"
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1) Numbers are irrelevant
2) Death could possibly be 1-A, too
3) Death also trascends them all
2) Death could possibly be 1-A, too
3) Death also trascends them all
