Downstreamers VS Death of The Endless

[Jockey-1337]

1) Then 1 Downstreamer can stalemate the entire The Endless collective. Why not? Both sides are 1-B.

2-3) Stalemate, then?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

1) Not really, a single Endless could take on the whole collective. Although possibly only Death or Destiny could defeat them.

2) My original vote is for Death or stalemate, yes.

 

[AndrewBennet]

The beginning of time in DC doesn't just refer to creation but as concept such as time and night that predates all versions of universe ( creation ) . Their union birthed the endless from void nothingness

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NlftnssnOPM/VkINqNvIITI/AAAAAAAAPBQ/Ef_u3urAe1g/s0-Ic42/004.jpg

When death ends the creation she also likely to end her father Time which is said to be dissolved in the Darkness ( Night ) including all the concepts in the creation such as Green , world tree ( which holds the essence of entire creation ) , Monitor sphere ( which treats the DC comic story as a tiny disk inside it ) and destinys realm which backgrounds all of existence .

Death aspect such as Nekron embodies oblivion as well as death

So I think Death might beat few of them but i'm not sure about all of them .

I would go with stalemate

 

[BlaLig]

1) Numbers are irrelevant
2) Death could possibly be 1-A, too

3) Death also trascends them all

Maybe you should make revision thread for Death too? But IIRC Death already have 1-A in the past. Its only edited out right now in her profile.

About killing ideas, well, Downstreamers could create realm of Ideas ('ultimate reality' that I meantioned), in which reality we see are just shadows of true unchanging reality. So yeah, Ideas>=Concepts, but the thing is, Downstreamers could create realm of Ideas wholesale, along with all Concepts reality is based on in it, infinite times over. They're Omniscient to boot.

If Death is 1-A, it'd be endless fight between Downstreamers' Unlimited Creation vs Death's Infinite Destruction.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I would love to, but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as, for example, Mathew Schroeder regarding comics. Also, I trust they had a pretty good reason in downgrading her to High 1-B.

Oh, and, it's "Infinite End". Destruction is her younger brother. ovo

 

[Jockey-1337]

"If Death is 1-A, it'd be endless fight between Downstreamers' Unlimited Creation vs Death's Infinite Destruction." - BlaLig


Both sides are High 1-B now but I vote for a draw for the reason above.

 

[TheSandman31]

Numbers don't matter when you're fighting the Endless, the endless are just "viewpoints" and these "viewpoints" exists simultaneously at the same time.This means that there can be more than just 1 Death, there is a different viewpoint for every creature and those viewpoints are all equally real and all equally powerful, just read The Overture where Dream meets with his other aspects.And considering that Death may exist on every Creation on the Void which is infinite then it's possible that there are infinite viewpoints of Death.DS are going to get ganked hard here

They won't kill Death

Downstreamers hax got trimmed down and I think that there is nothing on DS profile that can protect them from Deaths extremely potent Death Manipulation

Inconc or Death takes this

 

[Aeyu]

You keep shilling for her having High Outerversal range, but I don't really see that on her profile.

Not to mention her Death Manipulation gets hard countered by their Existence Manipulation/Conceptual Manipulation, which is basically the pinnacle of logical possibility. So unless she completely transcends logic, existence, and all concepts, I don't see her being able to avoid their restructure-y thing. The only reason they're not 1-A is because they're never stated to be dimensionless beings, and their realm of reality, while transcending an infinitely-infinite creation, can be considered another type of "dimension". They would logically stand in a Low 1-A tier if such a tier existed. (don't suggest it)

There's nothing to suggest that they couldn't just wipe her out in every other reality too, as they stand at the pinnacle of all possible realities and see an "ultimate ensemble," which could be comparable to the Overvoid.

I'm actually gonna take the opposite approach and say Old Ones take this with ultra-high difficulty.

 

[TheSandman31]

We(Me, Matthew and Antvasima) already agreed that her range is going to be upgraded.Its supported in the comics that she exist in every reality in the Void

The Void is a 1-A realm.With infinite Creations that are continuously falling and rising.Death is omnipresent across all of this Creation.

For the DS to destroy those Creations they should be 1-A because the Void is a 1-A void and is a High 1-A entity.

You're reaching to high

If the Downstreamers are not agreed to be 1-A, or even beyond dimensions then how the hell are they going to wipe out all the constantly rising and falling Creations in the Void

Do you know the implications of what you are saying? Standing at the pinnacle of something comparable to a High 1-A like the Overvoid is something omnipotent or not just a low 1-A considering even the Presence probably couldn't destroy all creations in the Void because even compared to the Presence the Void is still infinite

 

[TheSandman31]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:Void_Lucifer.jpg

No, DS ain't destroying all Creations in the Void when even the Void is all encompassing to mid-tier 1-A like Lucifer

Don't see how her Death Manipulation gets countered by Concept Manipulation when her DM can even kill concept(the Endless) and ideas that made up a concept

Also even to Lucifer, Death is inevitable.This just shows how absolute Death as a concept is

It doesn't mean that Death>Lucifer but rather when Lucifer dies Death will still be the one to claim him.

And before you said that Death "has no claim over Lucifer" and pulls out that scan

Lucifer said that he tends to "survive this" and Death said when Lucifer threatened her is "shooting the messenger only slows down the message" or something like that and the fact that Lucifer needs a miracle to get out of Deaths realm.Means that Lucifer isn't quite Dead, that Death will also one day claim Lucifer

Edit:Her omnipresence now states that she exists outside creation

 

[Jockey-1337]

Still I dont think Death can one-shot High 1-B multiverse. So Downstreamers have enough "time" to create new universes/multiverses. They have immeasurable speed whereas Death is nigh-omnipresent. She is not 100% omnipresent so the Dowsntreamers would instantly re-create universes/multiverses.


It is life vs death or creation vs destruction. This is is philosophical thing. But on topic: it is a draw.

 

[Jockey-1337]

> Death will also one day claim Lucifer


She hasn't done it. So there is no such a feat.

 

[TheSandman31]

> Death will also one day claim Lucifer

She hasn't done it. So there is no such a feat.

But Lucifer said it himself " that escaping to The Void is not cheating Death, just stretching the rules a little" and "You can't escape the inevitable"

Death is death dude, Death is merely a symbol that everything will eventually come to an end.As long as life and death exist so will Death.

 

[TheSandman31]

Still I dont think Death can one-shot High 1-B multiverse. So Downstreamers have enough "time" to create new universes/multiverses. They have immeasurable speed whereas Death is nigh-omnipresent. She is not 100% omnipresent so the Dowsntreamers would instantly re-create universes/multiverses.

It is life vs death or creation vs destruction. This is is philosophical thing. But on topic: it is a draw.

nigh-omnipresence on a possibly High Outerversal Scale>>>High 1-B immeasurable speed.The Void is even infinite to Lucifer then how will DS navigate a space that is immeasurable even to a 1-A

Considering that even the shadow of the shadow of the knowledge that is in Destiny's Book can already rend Creation into pieces and a Dream Vortex can end Creation.I can say that without a doubt that Death can instakill a multiverse

 

[DarkLK]

The Presence, a higher end 1-A

On the basis of what he's a higher end 1-A?

 

[TheSandman31]

The Presence, a higher end 1-A

On the basis of what he's a higher end 1-A?

Actually, I don't know... but people here said that he is so I just assumed that he is.Plus the fact that matches with the Presence are always getting closed because of NLF or something and that he's been put in matches against characters that are considered high tier 1-As.

I still get confused by 1-A stuff, but I cant get away from it because my favorite characters are 1-A

 

[Primaris_Brian]

The Presence always got NLF boost from nowhere wherever he face againds Hajun, but magically lost that boost when he face Yog avatar..

 

[TheSandman31]

That's because most people believe that if you're an avatar of a higher tier character then that must mean you stomp everyone in your tier.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Who? Yog avatar? outer gods>>>>Yog avatar.

azzy confirm this himself.

 

[TheSandman31]

I'm not sying otherwise but have you seen the reason of some guys saying that Randolph wins?

here:

' Randolph are' become' aspect of 'yog' 'sothoth who are high 1-A he takes this with ease

and

Carter seems to be way higher when it comes to '1-A,' since he is an aspect of a High 1-A.

 

[DarkLK]

And this is a meaningless argument, if there is no clearer context.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Huh? obviously assumshit is oblivious, i mean its not like im disagree with Carter is on higher level of 1-A but what kind of reasoning is that? its like say Chaos king is oblivious stronger than any high 1-B because he is an aspect of 1-A.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Yog's avatar is more unkillable than the Presence. Type 10 immortality vs types 1, 3, 4.

But Hajun has type 10 as well.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Type 10 is standart for 1-A, but the former type 5 will become type 11.

 

[TheSandman31]

And this is a meaningless argument, if there is no clearer context.

If you're referring to the comments/reasoning that I copy and posted.About why people think that if youre an aspect of a higher tiered character means you stomp anyone in your tier

those are the entire comment

 

[DarkLK]

People think wrong. It seems I even talked about it in that topic.

 

[TheSandman31]

Yes, I think I've also seen this reasoning used in matches where Chaos King is used.People likes to assume stuff

 

[Primaris_Brian]

I guess HOTU Thanos will destroy anyone in High 1-B combine because ppl say he have an aspect of TOAA.

 

[Jockey-1337]

I guess HOTU Thanos will destroy anyone in High 1-B combine because ppl say he have an aspect of TOAA.

There is a thought that HOTU is only universal https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/577192#7

 

[Primaris_Brian]

I already read that.

 

[TheSandman31]

I guess HOTU Thanos will destroy anyone in High 1-B combine because ppl say he have an aspect of TOAA.

Just to be clear, I'm making fun of such reasoning

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Yes i know.