Downstreamers, a 'Possible Tier 1-A'?

So I was wondering if this could qualify 'Possible Tier 1-A' for Downstreamers (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Downstreamers)

[Anna's face worked. "They are considering constraints on the ultimate manifold."

Maura suspected that she was going to struggle with the rest of this conversation. "The manifold of what?"

"Universes. It is of course a truism that all logically possible universes must exist. The universe, this universe, is described - umm, that's the wrong word - by a formal system. Mathematics. A system of mathematics."

Maura frowned. "You mean a Theory of Everything?"

Anna waved a hand, as if that were utterly trivial, and her beautiful wings rustled.

"But there are many formal systems. Some of them are less rich, some more. But each formal system is logically consistent internally, describes a possible universe, which therefore exists."]

Explains that in infinite ensemble universes, all universes that follows formal systems, must already exist. I presume this would automatically include universes with infinite dimensions (hilbert space), universes that follow string theory, and numerous others. Since all mathematical structures are basically formal systems. That's including hilbert space which is part of quantum mechanics. That, is called Level IV Multiverse.

And I got this explanation from another site :

[Level IV multiverse contains universes with different structures of mathematics than ours, contains sets, structures, or systems that exist beyond spacetime, duality, or existence and nonexistence, contains universes with different fundamental laws of physics than ours, contains universes with different laws of logic or metaphysics than ours, contains universes with wholly alien or incomprehensible concepts, or contains impossible worlds.]

Dunno if that interpretation is true or not but if it is, Any kind of systems, even at metaphysical levels can be radically different for all universes.

And [exist beyond spacetime, duality, or existence and nonexistence] are characteristics reserved for transduality characters.

And Downstreamers created infinite amount of this Level IV Multiverse :

[Or perhaps the manifold is itself merely one thread in a greater tapestry -'

'A manifold of manifolds.'

'And perhaps there is a further recursion of structure, no end to the hierarchies of life and mind, which -' Mane held up her hands.]

A manifold = infinite ensemble of universes.

So the assumption that they made 'Impossible Universes' may actually be true. But that'd contradict 'possible universes' statement since its not explicitly stated that DS made 'impossible worlds'. Its just 'all formal systems that are internally consistent describe possible universes that exist'.

Ehm, basically Manifoldverse probably has a Composite Hierarchy. All kind of cosmologies are a go.

And Downstreamers transcend such Level IV Multiverse. By surviving its collapse. Able to comprehend it as a whole and by embodying said Multiverse at the same time.

This Multiverse idea shares a parallel with Plato's realm of ideas. Where all things in our material world are just shadows cast by true Ideal things (I presume this 'Ideas' would mean 'concepts'). The difference is said 'Ideas' are replaced with 'mathematical structures' or 'abstract mathematics'.

From wiki :

[Abstract mathematics is so general that any Theory Of Everything (TOE) which is definable in purely formal terms (independent of vague human terminology) is also a mathematical structure. For instance, a TOE involving a set of different types of entities (denoted by words, say) and relations between them (denoted by additional words) is nothing but what mathematicians call a set-theoretical model, and one can generally find a formal system that it is a model of.]

Basically, it contains every cosmology imaginable and… unimaginable (if I understand it right).

Said 'true mathematical structures' are described as aspatial, atemporal, unchanging and archetypal according to wiki. It could be said they're 'Concepts', the true form of things. And Downstreamers are described to fully comprehend whole Manifold and embody it (which should contain said Concepts).

[The Astrologers, he told Manekato, believed that the universe ― any given universe ― was a fundamentally comprehensible system. If a system was comprehensible, then an entity must exist that could comprehend the entire universe, arbitrarily well ― or rather She must exist, as Babo put it.

"The God of the Manifold," Manekato said dryly.]

Of course, this quote contradicts the whole 'incomprehensible concepts' thing, so there might be something missing here.

Okay, Downstreamers being able to comprehend it as a whole might mean they see the Manifold as eternal and unchanging. From Tegmark's 'The Mathematical Universe' :

[Recall that a mathematical structure is an abstract, immutable entity existing outside of space and time. If history were a movie, the structure would therefore correspond not to a single frame of it but to the entire videotape.]

So, what do you guys think?

Been a long time since I've read anything by Stephen Baxter, but lemme give this a shot.

First off, the description of a level IV multiverse is a little off. A level IV multiverse is not truly beyond things like duality, existence, and nonexistence (at least not on all levels), though it is very abstract. Essentially, a level IV multiverse is mathematics, because in it all universes that can be described by mathematics are equally real. So yes, an accurate level IV multiverse is High 1-B by default, as it does include Hilbert Space. Level IV is made to bring closure, as it encompasses everything. There could not be a level V multiverse for instance by anything following any form of mathematics. Thus I am fairly certain an infinite recursion of level IV multiverses is still teeeechnically a level IV multiverse, as it is still technically more possible universes. Kind of like how a being of infinite dimensions could still have an infinitely increasing infinity of beings above it that were still infinite dimensional by the nature of infinity.

However, there seems to be the implication of some "ultimate manifold" topping this endless hierarchies of "life and mind", which would seem to imply complete transcendence of this endless recursion, which is obviously 1-A.

Now there is a bit of vagueness in the quotes, but from what I am seeing, I would have no problem with "At least High 1-B, possibly/likely 1-A", or even just 1-A, should there exist more clear statement. They are without a doubt High 1-B minimum, so it's not exactly a stretch.

Hope this helps.

I am fine with "At least High 1-B", but not any more than that based on speculation.

Are you willing to appropriately edit the profile Azathoth?

@Azathoth Thanks for your long response! (I mean it in a good way)

Ehm okay, so the cause for the Tier 1-A rating isn't that Level IV Multiverse is above duality|nonduality/existence|nonexistence, but because there's this 'Ultimate Manifold' that Downstreamers have that transcends all, do I get it right?

Level IV Multiverse does sound complicated though. It subsumes all other kind of cosmologies, the mother of all 'Composite Hierarchies', hehe.

@Antvasima

well if only 'At least High 1-B' is acceptable then okay. We don't give The Glory Tier 1-A after all

@BlaLig

Basically, yeah. If that is the case.

@Ant

I can, if this is agreed upon.

@Azathoth
So, what exactly is the one getting revised? 'High 1-B' changed to 'At least High 1-B'?

I believe so, yes.

That is correct, yes.

@Azathoth
Huh, that so? Just to clarify, does Manifoldverse have Composite Hierarchies? would it mean anything in Vs. threads against same High 1-B character with one 'Hilbert space' hierarchy?

Or would it mean nothing since both are 'infinite'?

If Level IV Multiverse doesn't include different Metaphysical hierarchies then I guess it wouldn't affect anything...

[There is a theory that our universe grew from a seed, a tiny piece of very high density material that then inflated into a great volume of spacetime, with planets and stars and galaxies. This was the Big Bang. But perhaps that seed was not unique. Perhaps there is a sea of primordial high density matter- energy - a sea where temperatures and densities and pressures exceed anything in our universe, where physics operates according to different laws - and within this sea universes inflate, one after another, like bubble in foam. These bubble universes would have no connection to each other. Their inhabitants would see only their own bubble, not the foam itself. That is my legend. The Ham's legend is that the Old Ones, created it all.]

I thought this [sea of primordial high density matter- energy] is something like Overvoid.

[where physics operates according to different laws], but seeing as said 'void' actually have 'physics' here, it threw my Outerverse argument down to the drain.

And Tier 1-A require undimensioned/un-concept-bounded. Mathematical structures are described to be like concepts. Aspatiotemporal and unchanging. But according to Plato's Allegory of Divided Line, mathematical structures (numbers) can't describe asbtract concepts like 'Justice'.

sigh* It seems even with all scientific hierarchies present DS can't reach Tier 1-A.

Come to think of it, Nyarlathotep (Demonbane) pretty much has same feat as DS. The difference is that Nya truly does transcend her multiverses, her Klein Bottles. While DS are stuck inside.

@Antvasima

Okay, thx for approving ^_^

@BlaLig

Pretty much just that the DS are at the epitome of what a High 1-B can be, hence the "At least".

@Azathoth

heh, more like epitome/embodiment of science itself. Basically 'High-High 1-B', is it?

So, who's doing the revision again? Me? or you, Azathoth?

It is probably best if Azathoth does so, as he can provide appropriate explanations.

@Antvasima
Okay ^_^

Anytime when you're not busy, Azathoth!

I can do so, now.

Done. Let me know how it looks.

@Azathoth
superb! Your edit rid off many of my redundant explanations and you even added new ones! ^_

No problem. Glad it looks good.

Thank you for the help. So, should we close this thread now?

I suppose so.