Downgrade Genos AP ("BoS" and "House of Evolution to Alien Conquerors Arc")

[DarthSpiderr]

It will be about this and this feat. Both of these give Genos the Town and Large Town Tier. However, having examined everything more closely, comparing some points, I came to the conclusion that the calculations gave slightly overestimated results.

I think we should start from the smallest to the largest.

Genos Energy Blasts - Webcomic​

The calculation is relatively simple, due to the fact that all sizes were indicated to us directly in the manga, which is very convenient.

As we see in the manga, this attack burned all the mosquitoes within a 500m radius. All that is needed for the calculation is to calculate the pressure for the shock wave.

ByAsura refers us to this presentation. It describes some of the pressure from the explosions and how they affect the structure of the city and people.

At the beginning of the calculation, the author himself indicates to us that it is best to use options from 2 to 4 psi, due to the fact that the building was not destroyed and did not suffer significantly in any way. And I completely agreed with him. However, in the end, he wrote that it made sense to take the 20 psi option, because the car flew off to the side of the fire wave, and the buildings were "damaged".

That's the problem with this blog.

First, despite the fact that the car flew off, the buildings were not damaged in any way. There was a clear emphasis in this scene that Genos' attack was just powerful enough that he could wipe out the mosquitoes (and humans) without causing much damage to Z-City. The moment with the car is just a short and cool frame that One didn't emphasize. The moment with the car is a clear outlier, because in this case the rear ones would be spaced apart. We cannot assume that one flying car can block the whole and not destroyed city.


Secondly, we cannot take 20 psi, because 20 psi means the total destruction of the building, which will leave nothing of it, and not only at the epicenter, but also to the very edge of the shock wave (As I know, the use of shock wave pressure and its radius assumes that the power of the shock wave, its pressure, remains the same until the end of the specified radius.Flying a distance greater than the radius specified in the calculation, the shock wave does not stop, it flies further, just now with much less pressure, due to which, for example , maybe an explosion that destroys everything within a 10 km radius with 20 psi pressure, causing everyone within a 10 km radius to die, however those within a 11 km radius can also be severely affected, however their chances of dying are much lower). The vehicle wasn't at the edge of Genos' range, at least we don't have evidence of that. It is possible that it was closer to the center, but the shock wave, having reached distances closer to 400-500 meters, was no longer so powerful and could not move any cars.

Thirdly, this scan. It does not prove in any way that there are 20 psi. If there were 20 psi here, the building would have been completely blown away, all we see is a broken window and small pebbles lie on the ground, obviously from buildings.

A window knocked out of its hinges by a shock wave is an indicator of 2-3 psi (Moderate damage to houses. Windows and doors blown outand severe damage to roofs. Residential structures collapse). And the funny thing is, we also cannot prove the fact that at the farthest distances from the epicenter, windows and doors were knocked out in the same way.

As we can see further, the buildings are barely damaged, but I believe that Murata did not draw in detail their darkening from the fire due to the fact that they are far away. In the anime, for example, all the buildings have become semi-black from the fire.

In general, 20 psi is the maximum overestimation. We should take in the region of 2 psi, if not 1 (At least the windows, their glass is definitely knocked out everywhere).


This will make the BoS of Genos 8-B+ (62.14 Tons) or 8-A (227.75 Tons) area. A very realistic result.



Now, moving on to the feat that Genos scaled to most of the time at High 7-C.

Genos Destroys The House of Evolution​

This calculation is much more complicated, because you need to find the dimensions yourself. In general, I believe that the volume found is quite correct, as is the accepted method. Although, to be honest, seeing how small Genos and Saitama are on the frame, and how far they are from the hole, it seems to me that the volume would still be a little more, but I won’t argue here.

The only thing that is definitely not the rule here is the evaporation of the stone. Why, if the stone is not visible, then it must have evaporated? We don't see the whole hole covered in steam, we just see some smoke and steam, and little steam. The very fact of its presence is logical, because these are blasts, blasts of Genos are both shock and thermal power. They have both kinetic energy, due to which he destroyed the building, and thermal energy (Due to which he leaves burns, and in general, this is energy / compressed fire, a feature of Genos, I don’t need to explain this). It is logical that there are steam. However, it is illogical that the whole stone, all these tens of thousands of tons of stone, were simultaneously evaporated, we have no indications and hints of this.

First, If everything were vaporized, the whole hole would be covered with steam, completely, because every square centimeter was exposed to an incredibly huge temperature.

Second, just look closely at each page. The blast of Genos first met the building and as we can see, it was simply destroyed, torn to pieces, but not evaporated. Impact force. Moreover, it is torn in such a way that half of the stones have a visible size, large, and the other half are small pieces. On the frame with general destruction, we see pieces of stones everywhere. But in the first hole, we can't see anything because it's all black. Maybe it's a shadow, but it's most likely surface soot from a blast. This is not an indication that the stone has evaporated, because she could simply destroy the entire stone and it shattered into small pieces, and the untouched, not destroyed stone on the surface of the hole just turned black from the enormous temperature. Otherwise, the building would also have evaporated and turned into soot, it is smaller in volume and is closer to Genos, he shot almost at point blank range, but it was simply destroyed, it is logical that the mountain was all the more simply destroyed, and the blackening is only superficial for a stone, which is not destroyed. If you look closely, you can see that somewhere closer to the black hole itself lie destroyed stones. The far hole has neither blackening nor pieces of stone. This is because it is far and not drawn in detail, unlike the foreground, I see no reason to consider this as a sign of evaporation, especially since there is also very little steam there.

Based on this, the blast of Genos destroyed everything in its path, but only by tearing everything into pieces, and not vaporizing.

I don't quite know what method to use here, but I think it's worth using 69 joules per cubic centimeter when the pieces are very small. We didn't see the whole animation of how the hole was created, so I doubt that 214 joules per cubic centimeter can be used (When the destroyed volume is completely invisible, crushed into dust), because the destroyed volume of the stone could simply fly away in all directions, including cliffs, rather than crumble to dust. But, despite this, we can take that most of it turned into small pieces, and the smaller part was erased into dust. For example, that 70% is 69 joules, and 30% is 214 joules. In such a case, it will be necessary to create a blog with this calculation, but only if this method is accepted. In this case, we will get 503.65 tons of TNT, 8-A. Almost 8-A+. Ideal for the previous calculation, if it is in the region of Tier 8.

RESULTS​

I just have to wait. I do not quite know how this whole system works, but I hope I did everything right.

 

[ByAsura]

At the beginning of the calculation, the author himself indicates to us that it is best to use options from 2 to 4 psi, due to the fact that the building was not destroyed and did not suffer significantly in any way. And I completely agreed with him. However, in the end, he wrote that it made sense to take the 20 psi option, because the car flew off to the side of the fire wave, and the buildings were "damaged".

I was referring to the webcomic, not the manga, which is why it's in the title. We see barely any damage in the webcomic.

First, despite the fact that the car flew off, the buildings were not damaged in any way.

Wrong. Look at the chunks near Genos' feet and the state of the ground compared to previously. Also, you see flying debris in this panel.

There was a clear emphasis in this scene that Genos' attack was just powerful enough that he could wipe out the mosquitoes (and humans) without causing much damage to Z-City. The moment with the car is just a short and cool frame that One didn't emphasize. The moment with the car is a clear outlier, because in this case the rear ones would be spaced apart. We cannot assume that one flying car can block the whole and not destroyed city.

He didn't ever say that. He just said he won't have to worry about human casualties because there's no lifesigns in the entire area. The fact that there were no lifesigns in the entire area actually does the exact opposite, suggesting that Genos wouldn't have fired even if the civilians were inside buildings in that area.

You haven't really given any good reason or sufficient evidence as to why it's an outlier, even if you're right about the lack of damage to the buildings. Like why would even your low-balled results not be powerful enough to do this? Overall far smaller explosions from somewhat near point-blank range have done this, and the 2.9 kiloton Halifax explosion tossed objects of this mass kilometres away.

What do you mean by spaced apart?

Thirdly, this scan. It does not prove in any way that there are 20 psi. If there were 20 psi here, the building would have been completely blown away, all we see is a broken window and small pebbles lie on the ground, obviously from buildings.

This I honestly will say I agree with and have been trying to implement for a while (the Beirut explosion, for example, was 10 PSI overpressure and wiped away buildings). But we've been using 20 psi for explosions like this. So you might want to take that up with the calc group.

In general, 20 psi is the maximum overestimation. We should take in the region of 2 psi, if not 1 (At least the windows, their glass is definitely knocked out everywhere).

This will make the BoS of Genos 8-B+ (62.14 Tons) or 8-A (227.75 Tons) area. A very realistic result.

I grant you that 20 psi is a little high, but 1 or 2 psi is completely bizarre.

This calculation is much more complicated, because you need to find the dimensions yourself.

Really not sure what you're talking about here.

In general, I believe that the volume found is quite correct, as is the accepted method. Although, to be honest, seeing how small Genos and Saitama are on the frame, and how far they are from the hole, it seems to me that the volume would still be a little more, but I won’t argue here.

This is a strange assumption. I got 32 metres for the opening of the crater, whereas pixel scaling them directly to it would get less than 20.

Honestly, this thread is filled with strange assumptions.

Why, if the stone is not visible, then it must have evaporated? We don't see the whole hole covered in steam, we just see some smoke and steam, and little steam.

We see the first and second hole entirely covered by a blank (greys, especially dark, are detailed) rising mist. Clearly it's steam.

The very fact of its presence is logical, because these are blasts, blasts of Genos are both shock and thermal power. They have both kinetic energy, due to which he destroyed the building, and thermal energy (Due to which he leaves burns, and in general, this is energy / compressed fire, a feature of Genos, I don’t need to explain this). It is logical that there are steam. However, it is illogical that the whole stone, all these tens of thousands of tons of stone, were simultaneously evaporated, we have no indications and hints of this.

Genos' blasts are shown melting stone/metal, generating huge amounts of flame, setting mosquitos mostly ablaze and producing large amounts of steam. Even a regular ass explosion will produce steam. This isn't illogical.

First, If everything were vaporized, the whole hole would be covered with steam, completely, because every square centimeter was exposed to an incredibly huge temperature.

Why? You aren't explaining yourself here or really providing evidence. This doesn't even make much sense because it'd rapidly cool and be carried by wind, if it wasn't already dispersed by the force of the explosion.

The blast of Genos first met the building and as we can see, it was simply destroyed, torn to pieces, but not evaporated. Impact force. Moreover, it is torn in such a way that half of the stones have a visible size, large, and the other half are small pieces. On the frame with general destruction, we see pieces of stones everywhere. But in the first hole, we can't see anything because it's all black. Maybe it's a shadow, but it's most likely surface soot from a blast. This is not an indication that the stone has evaporated, because he could simply destroy the entire stone and it shattered into small pieces, and the untouched, not destroyed stone on the surface of the hole just turned black from the enormous temperature

Otherwise, the building would also have evaporated and turned into soot, it is smaller in volume and is closer to Genos, he shot almost at point blank range, but it was simply destroyed, it is logical that the mountain was all the more simply destroyed, and the blackening is only superficial for a stone, which is not destroyed. If you look closely, you can see that somewhere closer to the black hole itself lie destroyed stones. The far hole has neither blackening nor pieces of stone. This is because it is far and not drawn in detail, unlike the foreground, I see no reason to consider this as a sign of evaporation, especially since there is also very little steam there.

Cool, but I have to ask where these small stones are in the crater? That's right, nowhere, even in the portions that are quite visible. This doesn't make any sense.

Now let's address the rest of this argument. You'd be right if Genos' blast stopped at the building after impacting it, but it didn't. The blast burst through another mountain and created a massive explosion after tearing the building to pieces. Clearly the explosion that destroyed the clearing and the second mountain top was different to what tore apart the building.

The rubble is segmented and smooth, aka concrete from the building. There's no visible rubble in the second crater or the blackened ground after here, which is visibly separated from the concrete rubble by a trench.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I agree that 20 PSI is too high for the first feat. The buildings should be shattered to their foundation at the least.

But clearly that isn't the case. So another PSI number should be used, not 20. The buildings are damaged but are still intact. 5 or 10 PSI? IDK how this all works.

I have no opinion on the second calc.

Edit: Why is this thread in general discussions?

 

[ByAsura]

I think 5 is reasonable. The kind of damage we see him do would definitely collapse or severely damage a residential structure.

Edit: I'm going to bed.

 

[Campo1uc]

There are questions, but they are so indirect that they will not affect the result in any way. I think everything is in order, it is worth accepting and considering this.

 

[DarthSpiderr]

Wrong. Look at the chunks near Genos' feet and the state of the ground compared to previously. Also, you see flying debris in this panel.

I noticed it and pointed it out. However, the damage is minimal, the building is generally intact, just some small pieces of stone have fallen off the building, this is 2-3 psi. The building itself has no visible damage, only small pieces of stone lie around (And there is no evidence that they are from the building, and not, for example, asphalt, a curb. In any case, this is the epicenter, this does not happen for all 500 meters. If within a radius of 10 meters from the building, the shock wave only breaks off small pieces of stone, due to which the building itself barely changes, then at a distance of 500 meters the wave will be colossally weaker. Therefore, 2-3 psi). The most impressive thing here is that the window fell and broke, and that everything around is on fire. Therefore, there is at least 2 psi.

He didn't ever say that. He just said he won't have to worry about human casualties because there's no lifesigns in the entire area. The fact that there were no lifesigns in the entire area actually does the exact opposite, suggesting that Genos wouldn't have fired even if the civilians were inside buildings in that area.

You haven't really given any good reason or sufficient evidence as to why it's an outlier, even if you're right about the lack of damage to the buildings. Like why would even your low-balled results not be powerful enough to do this? Overall far smaller explosions from somewhat near point-blank range have done this, and the 2.9 kiloton Halifax explosion tossed objects of this mass kilometres away.

What do you mean by spaced apart?

I'm talking about what the scene focuses on. The fire literally completely covers the buildings, but after it the buildings are intact. Genos wouldn't destroy buildings within a 500m radius, if only because people still have to live in them after they return. He clearly counted on the fact that the buildings would not be destroyed, and people would not suffer from fire because they were not there.

Why didn't you bring it? Obviously it's outlier because the fire didn't destroy the buildings and left the streets mostly intact, we only see burns on frames like this and this on the buildings. Many frames that show the total amount of destruction > one frame where the car flies to the side. Obviously this is an outlier.

Well, I didn't know that small explosions could send cars flying for miles, sounds absurd. However, it is not difficult to do this point-blank from the explosion, if the explosion has a radius of 100 meters and its pressure is 3 psi, then the car, being at the epicenter of the explosion, will be able to fly away. Because the pressure is 3 psi only at the edge of the explosion, at the epicenter the explosion will be over 20 psi.

Well, the translator sometimes lets me down, my English is not fluent. That is why sometimes my post has strange expressions.

This I honestly will say I agree with and have been trying to implement for a while (the Beirut explosion, for example, was 10 PSI overpressure and wiped away buildings). But we've been using 20 psi for explosions like this. So you might want to take that up with the calc group.

Not really. 20 psi we use for 100% death of a person and for the complete destruction of buildings. The building on the frames, at least, does not lie on the ground and is not completely destroyed, as after a nuclear bomb. It is intact, I will say more, there are not even large holes, and small holes, only minor damage, a small number of stones lie around. And the funny thing is, it only has to do with one building in the epicenter. Those buildings that are further away are completely undamaged, except for burns.

I grant you that 20 psi is a little high, but 1 or 2 psi is completely bizarre.

Well, okay, I agree, 1 psi is really not enough. But after all, 3 psi means that the buildings were slightly damaged by the shock wave. We see that only one building in the epicenter is slightly damaged, which just gives us 3 psi. But all the buildings that stand further already have only black burns on them, without damage. Therefore, I believe that it is worth taking 2 psi, but I can agree to 3 psi. Because the pressure taken for the calculation assumes that the shock wave at the edge of the radius taken has such a pressure. This would mean that absolutely all buildings within a radius of 500 meters would have to be slightly damaged in order to have 3 psi. Therefore, I suggest taking 2 psi.

Really not sure what you're talking about here.

I meant that this calculation is more complicated, because you need to calculate the volume of the stone yourself (Pixels). In the case of the first feat, the indicated volume is very easy to calculate, because Genos himself speaks of 500 meters.

This is a strange assumption. I got 32 metres for the opening of the crater, whereas pixel scaling them directly to it would get less than 20.

Honestly, this thread is filled with strange assumptions.

There is nothing strange here. I just physically cannot imagine that the hole in the nearest mountain has a height of 32 meters. It feels like one and a half 8-story buildings can fit between Saitama and this hole, it is so far away.

We see the first and second hole entirely covered by a blank (greys, especially dark, are detailed) rising mist. Clearly it's steam.

It seems you didn't understand. If the rock were to evaporate, steam would ooze from EVERY square centimeter of the surface of this tunnel. Because heat enough to vaporize the stone would be everywhere. If steam does not come out on the sides of the tunnel, etc., then these edges of the tunnel were not heated enough. In any case, there is little evidence here that the hole was vaporized. Steam only comes from below, at the bottom of the tunnel, and there is no evidence that this is not due to the fact that the bottom was very hot so that steam could come from it, but because the stone was
evaporated.

Genos' blasts are shown melting stone/metal, generating huge amounts of flame, setting mosquitos mostly ablaze and producing large amounts of steam. Even a regular ass explosion will produce steam. This isn't illogical.

That's right, any explosion produces steam, because it heats the earth, but does not evaporate. I'm only posting about steam because in the old threads, steam was the main reason the feat was believed to have vaporized the hole.

In any case, Genos began to vaporize stones and steel only in later versions. Specifically, this explosion was more kinetic than temperature, it did not evaporate the stone, but destroyed it.

Why? You aren't explaining yourself here or really providing evidence. This doesn't even make much sense because it'd rapidly cool and be carried by wind, if it wasn't already dispersed by the force of the explosion.

I didn't explain in detail because it should be logical. No, the wind is not capable in a couple of seconds (We are shown a hole a couple of seconds after the explosion) to cool the hole, which was heated to the instantaneous evaporation temperature of the stone. The stone begins to melt at a temperature of 700 degrees, not to mention the fact that in our feat it must also instantly evaporate. And yes, if the wind blows, this does not mean that after blowing off the steam it will no longer appear from the heated stone. When you blow on hot tea, the steam dissipates, but new steam flies out of the tea in place of the old steam. Because he's still hot.

And where did you get that there is wind? Saitama's cloak does not move, the steam barely moves to the right, and the left side of this tunnel is closed from the wind by a wall, steam would fly out of it further if it was heated to the state of evaporation of a stone.

Cool, but I have to ask where these small stones are in the crater? That's right, nowhere, even in the portions that are quite visible. This doesn't make any sense.

First, that's why I suggested also taking 214 joules when the stone is destroyed to an invisible state. Secondly, this hole is all black because of the burns, so we don't see any small pebbles inside the tunnel. However, in front of the tunnel lies a pile of stones.

In any case, if the building was not evaporated, but blown up, then the mountain, and even more so, was not evaporated, but destroyed.

Now let's address the rest of this argument. You'd be right if Genos' blast stopped at the building after impacting it, but it didn't. The blast burst through another mountain and created a massive explosion after tearing the building to pieces. Clearly the explosion that destroyed the clearing and the second mountain top was different to what tore apart the building.

Because the building is too small for the beam, and the inside is mostly empty, but this does not prevent him from vaporizing the building. In turn, the mountains are very voluminous, thick and not hollow. So the beam creates a big explosion on contact and destroys a larger volume, if the building were as wide as that tunnel, and as deep, the destruction would be the same, it’s just that the Genos beam would now hardly reach the second mountain (Because the energy of destroying such a tunnel of the building would be ALMOST equal to the energy of creating the tunnel, which means that the power of the beam would end at the first tunnel in the mountain)

The rubble is segmented and smooth, aka concrete from the building. There's no visible rubble in the second crater or the blackened ground after here, which is visibly separated from the concrete rubble by a trench.

Because the volume of this tunnel in the mountain is much larger than that of the building, so the energy stays in the stone longer and spends more energy on destroying it. Pieces flew in different directions, it is possible that most of the pieces flew forward and fell off the cliff, some pieces flew back, those that remained in the tunnel were crushed and painted black from burns.

 

[Antvasima]

@Celestial_Pegasus @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Therefir @Andytrenom @CrimsonStarFallen @GyroNutz @ElixirBlue @Nehz_XZX @SamanPatou @LordTracer @Emirp_sumitpo

Would any of you be willing to help out here?

 

[DarthSpiderr]

We began to use a different method, without the static bullets.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Celestial_Pegasus @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Therefir @Andytrenom @CrimsonStarFallen @GyroNutz @ElixirBlue @Nehz_XZX @SamanPatou @LordTracer @Emirp_sumitpo

Would any of you be willing to help out here?

I'm already watching the thread. The reasoning for a downgrade being needed makes sense to me though it seems like as if the exact extent of the downgrade needs to be discussed.

 

[TheRustyOne]

This thread should not be in the general discussion section.

Considering this is a downgrade this should be in the content revision section no?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

This thread should not be in the general discussion section.

Considering this is a downgrade this should be in the content revision section no?

I didn't notice that this was in General Discussion. A downgrade should indeed go to Content Revision.

 

[Jirmental]

Pretty good points overall, I think you're right.

 

[DarthSpiderr]

This thread should not be in the general discussion section.

Considering this is a downgrade this should be in the content revision section no?

Sorry, I have little experience in this, so I clicked in the wrong place, and I don’t know how to change it.

 

[Campo1uc]

I would like to contribute and respond to ByAsura complaints.

The stones were destroyed, not vaporized. And this is very obvious, because the building that received the energy first exploded, but did not evaporate. This means that the mountains got a little less energy for themselves. And if we give an analogy with a bullet, then the bullet will pass through the wall, and then into the human body, because of which the person will suffer less than if the bullet had no reinforcement in front of it. I see no reason why the same shot became SUDDENLY a different type of attack, and for a more voluminous breed.

Regarding another key segment of the dispute, I will say the following. Among the countless buildings, only one, which was the closest, barely received damage, which, according to the description, reaches 3 levels of Psi. And the stones on the ground are small for the building and there are few of them .. However, this is the center. Anything further just has simple burns. So, it is reasonable to take 2 Psi. 1 psi is too little, although it actually makes sense, because the windows and doors in all buildings are intact.

 

[ByAsura]

I noticed it and pointed it out.

You really didn't, but I'll just chalk it up to language barrier.

Anyway, like I said before, I'm fine with this being lower, although a ton of calcs would need to be altered on other pages.

I'm talking about what the scene focuses on. The fire literally completely covers the buildings, but after it the buildings are intact. Genos wouldn't destroy buildings within a 500m radius, if only because people still have to live in them after they return. He clearly counted on the fact that the buildings would not be destroyed, and people would not suffer from fire because they were not there.

I'm focusing on what Genos actually said, which is that there were no lifesigns in that entire space. You're making assumptions based on the damages here, but Genos' actual wording completely and objectively eliminates this notion you're trying to create.

Why didn't you bring it? Obviously it's outlier because the fire didn't destroy the buildings and left the streets mostly intact, we only see burns on frames like this and this on the buildings. Many frames that show the total amount of destruction > one frame where the car flies to the side. Obviously this is an outlier.

Why did I need to? You acknowledge in the point after this that you were incorrect about it.

Well, I didn't know that small explosions could send cars flying for miles, sounds absurd.

This isn't a small explosion (I said smaller, not small). Even the FOAB and MOAB, two of the largest conventional bombs tested, have a total blast radius (not even lethality radius) much lower than Genos' lethality radius.

However, it is not difficult to do this point-blank from the explosion, if the explosion has a radius of 100 meters and its pressure is 3 psi, then the car, being at the epicenter of the explosion, will be able to fly away. Because the pressure is 3 psi only at the edge of the explosion, at the epicenter the explosion will be over 20 psi.

The problem was that A) the epicentres of explosions have much higher overpressure, and B) this wasn't the epicentre of Genos' explosion.

Well, okay, I agree, 1 psi is really not enough. But after all, 3 psi means that the buildings were slightly damaged by the shock wave. We see that only one building in the epicenter is slightly damaged, which just gives us 3 psi. But all the buildings that stand further already have only black burns on them, without damage. Therefore, I believe that it is worth taking 2 psi, but I can agree to 3 psi. Because the pressure taken for the calculation assumes that the shock wave at the edge of the radius taken has such a pressure. This would mean that absolutely all buildings within a radius of 500 meters would have to be slightly damaged in order to have 3 psi. Therefore, I suggest taking 2 psi.

I'd say 3 to 5 is more reasonable. Even if you won't accept tossing cars and ejecting debris, the other shit would most likely have destroyed a wood-framed house.

There is nothing strange here. I just physically cannot imagine that the hole in the nearest mountain has a height of 32 meters. It feels like one and a half 8-story buildings can fit between Saitama and this hole, it is so far away.

If you mean the second mountain-top, then fine, whatever. I even said I agree. But you need something to actually back this.

In any case, Genos began to vaporize stones and steel only in later versions.

According to whom? You actually need evidence to make a point like this.

Speaking of evidence, literally all the steam scans I showed you were from around this time. Genos' blast here ignited the mosquitos and scorched his surroundings, so they're predominantly heat-based with a kinetic aspect.

Specifically, this explosion was more kinetic than temperature, it did not evaporate the stone, but destroyed it.

And again, what tore the building apart and scorched the clearing is visibly extremely different, hence the trench in the ground.

I didn't explain in detail because it should be logical. No, the wind is not capable in a couple of seconds (We are shown a hole a couple of seconds after the explosion) to cool the hole, which was heated to the instantaneous evaporation temperature of the stone. The stone begins to melt at a temperature of 700 degrees, not to mention the fact that in our feat it must also instantly evaporate. And yes, if the wind blows, this does not mean that after blowing off the steam it will no longer appear from the heated stone. When you blow on hot tea, the steam dissipates, but new steam flies out of the tea in place of the old steam. Because he's still hot.

It's not logical, though. You don't typically see this kind of shit after explosions (barring the mushroom cloud, which already occurred) because of the air vortex created. In fact, a large part of fallout occurs because residual vapour is lofted into the atmosphere.

We still see lots steam, though, especially since mushroom clouds are steam. So there's no problem here.

And where did you get that there is wind? Saitama's cloak does not move, the steam barely moves to the right, and the left side of this tunnel is closed from the wind by a wall, steam would fly out of it further if it was heated to the state of evaporation of a stone.

You outright see his cape moving in the previous part of the scan, and the steam at a 45 degree angle in the next. There's plenty of wind.

Steam across the majority of the crater.

First, that's why I suggested also taking 214 joules when the stone is destroyed to an invisible state. Secondly, this hole is all black because of the burns, so we don't see any small pebbles inside the tunnel. However, in front of the tunnel lies a pile of stones.

I suppose pulverization is reasonable, if nothing else.

Again, we don't see rubble even in the portions of the trench that aren't black due to the burns. There is no visible rubble for you to make this claim.

In any case, if the building was not evaporated, but blown up, then the mountain, and even more so, was not evaporated, but destroyed.

The building is the only one we see fragments of, so this is a moot point.

Because the building is too small for the beam, and the inside is mostly empty, but this does not prevent him from vaporizing the building.

This isn't at all irrelevant. The point was that the building wasn't exploded, it was burst through and the mountain tops were exploded.

In turn, the mountains are very voluminous, thick and not hollow. So the beam creates a big explosion on contact and destroys a larger volume, if the building were as wide as that tunnel, and as deep, the destruction would be the same, it’s just that the Genos beam would now hardly reach the second mountain (Because the energy of destroying such a tunnel of the building would be ALMOST equal to the energy of creating the tunnel, which means that the power of the beam would end at the first tunnel in the mountain)

That's not how it works, although conservation of energy is a thing. By this logic, collapsing a building and bringing down a hill require the same amount of energy just because their volume (most of which is air and less durable shit than granite) is comparable. Also, who says that the force that tore apart the building and exploded the mountain tops were equal?

Because the volume of this tunnel in the mountain is much larger than that of the building, so the energy stays in the stone longer and spends more energy on destroying it.

Which is exactly the opposite of 'So the beam creates a big explosion on contact and destroys a larger volume', so what's the point here? If it's that there's less energy expend on the buildings than the mountains, then that's what I've been saying.

Pieces flew in different directions, it is possible that most of the pieces flew forward and fell off the cliff, some pieces flew back, those that remained in the tunnel were crushed and painted black from burns.

You aren't substantiating any of what you say here, so I really don't see a point in addressing it.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Hop needs time to catch up and provide input.

 

[DarthSpiderr]

Why did I need to?

I quoted your question to me. I didn't ask you.

This isn't a small explosion (I said smaller, not small). Even the FOAB and MOAB, two of the largest conventional bombs tested, have a total blast radius (not even lethality radius) much lower than Genos' lethality radius.

If Genos' attack was even the level of a block, he would have been able to throw the car back as well if the car was as close to the epicenter as possible. In any case, we do not know where the car was, how far from the epicenter.

The problem was that A) the epicentres of explosions have much higher overpressure, and B) this wasn't the epicentre of Genos' explosion.

We don't know how far it was from the epicenter of Genos, and yes, the pressure basically drops with every meter traveled. 20 psi could only be taken into the formula if the shock wave maintains a pressure of 20 psi up to the edge of the shock wave (Specified Radius). That's why I'm against 5 psi, because only in the epicenter there is little damage to buildings (By the way, they pull more by 3 psi, there are also small damage to buildings). And only one building. On the pages during the death (or not death) of the Mosquito Girl and further, it is clear that the rest of the buildings received only burns, without the destruction of surfaces.

If we were to use 5 psi, this would mean that the shock wave would maintain a pressure of 5 psi up to a radius of 500 meters, and buildings at a distance of 500 meters from the epicenter would be severely damaged externally. But it's not.

I'd say 3 to 5 is more reasonable. Even if you won't accept tossing cars and ejecting debris, the other shit would most likely have destroyed a wood-framed house.

The description of 3 psi fits the description of what happened to the building. I suggest taking it for the most extreme buildings that stand 500 meters from Genos.

If you mean the second mountain-top, then fine, whatever. I even said I agree. But you need something to actually back this.

Just look at the frame where the explosion is shown with these hills in the background. You see the first tunnel from the side. And now look that there is a void to the right of this hill, we do not see other mountains at least at a distance equal to 1 diameter of this hill, which means that the neighboring hill that Genos damaged is very far away. According to our calculations, given the size of the building, it is probably only 100-200 meters from Genos.

According to whom? You actually need evidence to make a point like this.

Speaking of evidence, literally all the steam scans I showed you were from around this time. Genos' blast here ignited the mosquitos and scorched his surroundings, so they're predominantly heat-based with a kinetic aspect.

What? I am under no obligation to prove that Genos must scale in the temperature of his beams to his future versions. It is up to you to prove that its rays are as hot as, for example, Post G4. It's like if I had to prove that Watchdog Man couldn't defeat Goketsu. Prove that its temperature here is high enough to vaporize the stone.

The explosion of Genos with buildings was thermal, we were directly shown that it was a huge clot of fire, well, with shock waves. Genos blasts are not fire, they are energy, and we have direct evidence that it was the impact force in this fit due to the fact that the building was destroyed.

And again, what tore the building apart and scorched the clearing is visibly extremely different, hence the trench in the ground.

It physically cannot be different, it's the SAME BLAST, it doesn't have any chips or commands to change the type of damage on the fly, it's a BLAST. We don't have any evidence to the contrary that the stones were NOT destroyed in the tunnel. All the evidence on evaporation tends to - future versions of Genos (Stronger versions) are able to evaporate the stone, steam comes from the tunnel (Not even from all the surfaces of the tunnel, but only from the bottom, lol. And this is due to the fact that the wind managed so much in seconds I'm pretty sure that there are no natural winds in One Punch Man as powerful as on Jupiter), and after the destruction of the building, the beam FOR SOMETHING changed the type of damage, becoming thermal, this is strange.

It's not logical, though. You don't typically see this kind of shit after explosions (barring the mushroom cloud, which already occurred) because of the air vortex created. In fact, a large part of fallout occurs because residual vapour is lofted into the atmosphere.

We still see lots steam, though, especially since mushroom clouds are steam. So there's no problem here.

After most powerful explosions, steam comes out at the epicenter, but almost never the stone in a huge volume at the epicenter evaporates. And yes, we are talking about a stone inside the mountain, which certainly contacted the super-hot rays of Genos. If the stone really evaporated, the entire surface of the tunnel would be heated to crazy temperatures, and steam would ooze from every square inch. It is impossible for the walls of the tunnel to be cold, after a temperature that vaporizes the stone in a fraction of a second.

You outright see his cape moving in the previous part of the scan, and the steam at a 45 degree angle in the next. There's plenty of wind.

Steam across the majority of the crater.

Okay, I didn't notice it. And still, it's too weak for the wind, which can cool the temperature in 700 degrees, if not thousands.

I suppose pulverization is reasonable, if nothing else.

Again, we don't see rubble even in the portions of the trench that aren't black due to the burns. There is no visible rubble for you to make this claim.

We also see that huge pieces of stone lie around. Yes, they are from the building, but the building is smaller than a mountain, and it received all the energy of the beam first, which means it will be easier to destroy it, and at the same time it shattered into visible or barely visible pieces. We don't know what happened to the tunnel, but let's remember that we have a cliff ahead of us. It's entirely possible that the rock that Genos' blast rammed into just flew forward and fell off the cliff. Because in front of the tunnel we see a bunch of debris, the building has mostly flown forward, and the tunnel itself is too black to understand what happened.

I see no reason to discuss the second mountain, it is not drawn in detail, because it is a small part of the background.

The building is the only one we see fragments of, so this is a moot point.

Because 3 objects were destroyed, two mountains and one building, and only the building in front of it did not have a cliff, because of which the stone, flying forward, simply lay on the ground and was visible. And only the building was completely destroyed, which is why there are no burns along the edges and you can see everything. The first tunnel has a cliff in front, so we don't know what the stones look like from it. There are also stones in front of it, but we are not sure how much of them belong to the tunnel and not to the building. The second mountain is surrounded on all sides by cliffs.

Taking 214 joules is a slight overestimation of the result, because we do not know exactly what happened, and you just decided to take the largest option, because the fragments are not visible. We always take either the average or the minimum option when we do not understand exactly what happened. Therefore, it is worth taking 69 joules. Although I believe that it can be calculated that 30-40% of the volume was destroyed to invisible fragments.

This isn't at all irrelevant. The point was that the building wasn't exploded, it was burst through and the mountain tops were exploded.

I'm talking about the fact that the blast did not leave burns, because it did not have time to linger long inside the stone from which the building was made, because the building is small and its walls are thin. The thickness of the tunnel is relatively large, and therefore the blast managed to linger a little longer inside the stone, covering the edges with burns.

That's not how it works, although conservation of energy is a thing. By this logic, collapsing a building and bringing down a hill require the same amount of energy just because their volume (most of which is air and less durable shit than granite) is comparable. Also, who says that the force that tore apart the building and exploded the mountain tops were equal?

This is how it should work, on the principle of firearm bullets. The more obstacles a bullet pierces, the weaker its flight speed and penetrating power. Otherwise, when fired down, Genos' blast could pierce the planet if he didn't care about any obstacles and his energy would not end.

And in my opinion, I said that the beam would have reached the second mountain with difficulty, that is, it would have reached it anyway, simply by destroying a smaller volume (Just because the building is empty from the inside, which means it is still easier to destroy it).

Which is exactly the opposite of 'So the beam creates a big explosion on contact and destroys a larger volume', so what's the point here? If it's that there's less energy expend on the buildings than the mountains, then that's what I've been saying.

The fact is that the beam does not change the type of damage, because this is not logical, and there is no evidence of this. It's just energy, and if the building is not evaporated, but destroyed, then the mountain is also destroyed, not evaporated. Everything is logical. The mountains were destroyed to a greater extent because the mountain is larger than the building. And the explosion was because the process of firing a blast and ramming against a mountain was very powerful. In any case, the explosion means nothing and does not prove in any way that everything was vaporized.

You aren't substantiating any of what you say here, so I really don't see a point in addressing it.

Here again. It should just be logical, I didn't think I'd have to explain every little thing to you. The BUILDING was destroyed in such a way that most of the destroyed fragments flew forward. THE BEAM PUSHES FORWARD with a blow, which means that the FRAGMENTS FROM THE IMPACT FORCE fly FORWARD. THERE IS NOTHING AHEAD OF THE MOUNTAIN. BREAK ONLY. And we also understand that this is a very POWERFUL IMPACT, AND FROM STRONG IMPACTS THAT DESTROY THE STONE, THE STONE IS SHARED IN ALL DIRECTIONS.

We have 3 options where the fragments are located (All 3 options should work simultaneously, the fragments of the building lay exactly the same). First, in front of the tunnel. We see a bunch of fragments in front of the tunnel. However, we do not know which part of these fragments is from the tunnel and which part is from the building, because fragments of the building flew forward. Second, they flew forward because the GENOS BLAST HIT THEM FROM ONE DIRECTION AND IT IS LOGICAL THAT SUCH IMPACT FORCE CAUSED THE FRAGMENTS TO FLY IN THE SIDE WHERE THE BEAM FLYED (If I hit the chair with all my force forward, horizontally, and at the same time I will street level, fragments from the chair will fly forward, in the direction of the fist's flight (at least most of it). However, we have a cliff ahead. If they flew ahead, we can't see them. Third, they are in the tunnel itself. Near the building, too, small fragments were left at the site of its foundation. However, the tunnel is completely blackened from the extreme temperatures, due to which we cannot see anything (This is not even worth denying, because everything inside the tunnel is painted completely black).

To take the option with 214 joules, you need to prove directly that the fragments were indeed erased. By this logic, I can state that Genos destroyed the mountain at the Sub-Atomic level, since we do not see any parts of the tunnel. This would be an overestimate for which we have little evidence.

 

[ByAsura]

I quoted your question to me. I didn't ask you.

Yes, and I gave a response that debunked this (which you agreed to). Hence why I didn't need to at all. My question was not in response to you asking.

If Genos' attack was even the level of a block, he would have been able to throw the car back as well if the car was as close to the epicenter as possible. In any case, we do not know where the car was, how far from the epicenter.

If anything, this goes to show that your logic is flawed. You calculated this at Multi-City Block level with 1 to 2 psi, and are now saying that it's not even city block level because buildings would be destroyed. What this shows is that fiction doesn't deal very well with overpressure.

You can see that it's not close to the epicentre because there's no huge ass fireball, just a tributary of flame. Plus, you'd be able to see buildings (or at least the car would have hit them already) if it was the same street.

That's why I'm against 5 psi, because only in the epicenter there is little damage to buildings (By the way, they pull more by 3 psi, there are also small damage to buildings). And only one building. On the pages during the death (or not death) of the Mosquito Girl and further, it is clear that the rest of the buildings received only burns, without the destruction of surfaces.

No buildings really got their surfaces destroyed, there was just some damage to one. You even place emphasis on this. There's no problem here.

If we were to use 5 psi, this would mean that the shock wave would maintain a pressure of 5 psi up to a radius of 500 meters, and buildings at a distance of 500 meters from the epicenter would be severely damaged externally. But it's not.

Literally the same thing would happen with 1 psi. Even a 0.01 kiloton nuke has a 20 psi destruction radius of 50 metres.

Just having a 10 psi shockwave over a 10 metre radius would require an equivalent to 0.01 tons of TNT if you really want to keep being this pedantic.

The fact is, fiction doesn't line up with reality.

Just look at the frame where the explosion is shown with these hills in the background. You see the first tunnel from the side. And now look that there is a void to the right of this hill, we do not see other mountains at least at a distance equal to 1 diameter of this hill, which means that the neighboring hill that Genos damaged is very far away. According to our calculations, given the size of the building, it is probably only 100-200 meters from Genos.

The problem here is that we don't see the full mountains. The bottoms are cut off.

What? I am under no obligation to prove that Genos must scale in the temperature of his beams to his future versions. It is up to you to prove that its rays are as hot as, for example, Post G4. It's like if I had to prove that Watchdog Man couldn't defeat Goketsu. Prove that its temperature here is high enough to vaporize the stone.

You literally are. You can't just make a blanket statement like 'Genos began to vaporize stones and steel only in later versions' and not provide any evidence. You made a claim that Genos doesn't do this in early versions, and the burden of proof is on you after I gave the scans.

I said that the scans I showed as proof weren't from future versions, they were already from this version. So I actually did provide proof already.

The explosion of Genos with buildings was thermal, we were directly shown that it was a huge clot of fire, well, with shock waves. Genos blasts are not fire, they are energy, and we have direct evidence that it was the impact force in this fit due to the fact that the building was destroyed.

I didn't say they were fire, I said they ignited mosquitos and scorched the ground. I literally said the exact thing you're saying right here.

It physically cannot be different, it's the SAME BLAST, it doesn't have any chips or commands to change the type of damage on the fly, it's a BLAST.

It's not a blast, it's a beam that causes blasts. By this logic, the beam that destroyed the 2nd mountain top was also the same blast.

We don't have any evidence to the contrary that the stones were NOT destroyed in the tunnel.

Except the fact that there's literally none visible at any point.

All the evidence on evaporation tends to - future versions of Genos (Stronger versions)

Even though I literally never used feats from a future version of Genos as an example.

Speaking of evidence, I have yet to see any proof from you for pretty much anything you've said when it comes to how the physics of Genos' attacks should operate.

After most powerful explosions, steam comes out at the epicenter, but almost never the stone in a huge volume at the epicenter evaporates. And yes, we are talking about a stone inside the mountain, which certainly contacted the super-hot rays of Genos. If the stone really evaporated, the entire surface of the tunnel would be heated to crazy temperatures, and steam would ooze from every square inch. It is impossible for the walls of the tunnel to be cold, after a temperature that vaporizes the stone in a fraction of a second.

I didn't say it needed to cool the entirety, and I didn't even say the wind would cool it. My point was that it'd be largely dispersed by the vortex created by large-scale explosions, lofted and diffused into the atmosphere, and most of the steam would have already been released by the mushroom cloud. The small amounts that we see are quite reasonable.

Also, now that I'm thinking about it, tf even is this point? You think a fiction author would take something like this into account? Most vaporized craters in fiction aren't dumping that much steam into the atmosphere every single second. I don't even know why I should still acknowledge this as a point.

We don't know what happened to the tunnel, but let's remember that we have a cliff ahead of us. It's entirely possible that the rock that Genos' blast rammed into just flew forward and fell off the cliff. Because in front of the tunnel we see a bunch of debris, the building has mostly flown forward, and the tunnel itself is too black to understand what happened.

We don't see rocks from the cliff ejected here or anywhere close to the other mountain. Also, this makes no sense because something that ejects the entire mass of the hill would be more than enough to disperse the building's debris at a distance rather than leaving them pretty much where they are.

The tunnel is not entirely black, and would be a lot more rugged than what you're trying to claim.

Because 3 objects were destroyed, two mountains and one building, and only the building in front of it did not have a cliff, because of which the stone, flying forward, simply lay on the ground and was visible.

A gigantic amount of the building was in exactly the same spot after flying downwards as it was before it got destroyed, so what you're saying is totally illogical, especially if this is somehow the exact same explosion like you're trying to claim.

I'm talking about the fact that the blast did not leave burns, because it did not have time to linger long inside the stone from which the building was made, because the building is small and its walls are thin. The thickness of the tunnel is relatively large, and therefore the blast managed to linger a little longer inside the stone, covering the edges with burns.

That's absolute non-sense. You want to adhere to the laws of physics so much, but then you keep saying stuff that utterly contradicts it like this.

Thermal radiation travels at the speed of light and burns humans. There's no bs about lingering inside the stone here, it'd have at least blackened the building.

And in my opinion, I said that the beam would have reached the second mountain with difficulty, that is, it would have reached it anyway, simply by destroying a smaller volume (Just because the building is empty from the inside, which means it is still easier to destroy it).

And yet you're saying it destroyed a greater volume. This is not analogous to a bullet, this is analogous to a beam that fragmented a building and then burned through two cliff faces.

The fact is that the beam does not change the type of damage, because this is not logical, and there is no evidence of this. It's just energy, and if the building is not evaporated, but destroyed, then the mountain is also destroyed, not evaporated.

Firstly, you're expecting a fiction author to be super logical.

Secondly, what I said is that there's a large amount of heat. I never said there was no kinetic energy.

What you're saying doesn't matter, it just means that the large amount of heat produced vaporized the cliff.

If you want to be so super on the side of IRL science here, allow me to be the one that points out how explosions are omni-directional. An explosion wouldn't have carved a cylindrical tunnel into rock and then destroyed a completely different mountain top without any damage to the surrounding area, it would have radiated from the building and flattened the clearing and its surroundings omni-directionally.

The mountains were destroyed to a greater extent because the mountain is larger than the building. And the explosion was because the process of firing a blast and ramming against a mountain was very powerful. In any case, the explosion means nothing and does not prove in any way that everything was vaporized.

Literally the opposite would happen if you just want to go by IRL standards. The building is much more fragile and would have received way more energy.

Here again. It should just be logical, I didn't think I'd have to explain every little thing to you.

I get your points, my guy, it's just that they're not as logical as you think they are, don't have any backing and don't line up with the manga.

Anyway, I've already addressed these next claims in this post.

 

[DarthSpiderr]

In general, I'm tired of arguing, I think we have said enough, if the staff wants to read our arguments, our comments are there, I think we will not go that far.

Probably just have to wait. But to be honest, now the power surges with the next Genos updates seem to be very large.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. I have another thread to finish anyway.

 

[DarthSpiderr]

Bump

 

[NikHelton]

DarthSpider's arguments seem reasonable. I have always questioned his feat of evaporation when we see that it is fragmentation and explosion.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Gop damn it, OP was beaned for being a rude. Well, Hop is not waiting a year to see this conclude. This thread is still useful despite the OP and their actions, Hop sees no issue moving forward with getting a vote tallied in favor and against the changes.

 

[1BuLLyMaguire1]

I agree with everything said. I think it is obvious that the shock wave was not capable of destroying walls and knocking doors off their hinges at a distance of 500 meters from the epicenter, the main thing in the formula is that the pressure is maintained up to the specified radius. In our case, it loses such power at a distance of tens of meters from the epicenter. So yes. The option with the smallest 8-A is most suitable.

 

[1BuLLyMaguire1]

bump

 

[1BuLLyMaguire1]

Bump

 

[Recon1511]

So it seems that you guys agree with BoS Genos getting downgraded to 8-A? or Low 7-C idk

Idk what the consensus on downgrading his High 7-C calc is tho

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So it seems that you guys agree with BoS Genos getting downgraded to 8-A? or Low 7-C idk

Idk what the consensus on downgrading his High 7-C calc is tho

There's no consensus

 

[ByAsura]

Nobody seems to be addressing my counter-arguments anymore, and even Darth stopped responding for more staff input before the ban took place. So I'll just try to end this here.

I will say that it's obviously only the building was fragmented, as those are literally the only debris shown, while there's a completely different crater where the clifface (now covered in steam, which is literally what mushroom clouds are) used to be. It's clearly not omnidirectional, and the mountain debris would be scattered everywhere if Darth was right.

Plus, his response relies on an enormous amount of headcanon (i.e heat not acting like heat at all/contradicting what heat's shown to do in the chapter, the blast being half-omnidirectional and tossing the cliff completely off screen in a single direction) to actually work.

However, the BoS 500-metre explosion should be downgraded to 1.15 kilotons.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

However, the BoS 500-metre explosion should be downgraded to 1.15 kilotons.

So BoS Genos becomes Low 7-C?

 

[ByAsura]

MCB, actually. I forgot about something.

Anyway, is everyone fine with me closing this? It's been mostly inactive since the ban, most staff who've commented don't agree, and Darth can pursue this after his ban (which ends over half a year from now).

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

MCB, actually. I forgot about something.

Oh, okay.

Anyway, is everyone fine with me closing this? It's been mostly inactive since the ban, most staff who've commented don't agree, and Darth can pursue this after his ban (which ends over half a year from now).

Sure. So we're downgrading BoS Genos in a different CRT?

 

[ByAsura]

No, I've already downgraded BoS, just not HoE.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

No, I've already downgraded BoS, just not HoE.

Alright. Then the thread can be closed now, like you said