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Doom Additions

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Nothing very big...except:

Add a Pre-Divinity machine key.In order to group in Night Sentinel Doomguy,who grew much stronger than the OG doomguy and has gained the following abilities:

Acrobatics: The Super shotgun was modified and gains the meathook during his stay with the sentinels. There also shouldn’t really be any reason why he couldn’t swing from monkey bars either. It seems weird to just limit to the Doomslayer eternal key.

Immortality type 2/4 Negation: Gains the crucible blade during his stay,even before blessed with by the divinity machine.


0.09 Scaling: His striking strength and overall durability would scale to the Marauders (due to being a high ranking night sentinel and superior to those who fought in the civil war)

Sword Mastery: He already has it,but it should be given in the earlier keys. Since he ascended the ranks and trained with the night sentinels.

Ballista: Night Sentinels had the Ballista in their weaponry.

Heat Manip: Pretty weird he doesn’t have it and only has resistance to it. The Ballista fires argent energy,which is superior to the superheated shots of the plasma rifle.

High Stamina: For his feats against the Night Sentinel pit and rampaging in hell beforehand after the events of Doom 64. As well as surviving waves of demons that had slain other night sentinels as well.

All weapons gained in this key would flat out be 0.09 tons.

That’s it.

Edit:

A new proposition has came with new knowledge coming to light.

Proposition 2: Complete Edition. The better one.

Lump all into a Night Sentinel Key.

All prior abilities mentioned before with a few changes for compromise:


AP: The Doomslayer during this key had been freshly pooped out of the divinity machine and did not have the time to gain the strength his RP would’ve gotten him after billions of years (i.e into 7-C).

So this time we would have him scale to the hell barge GPE. Since he would pretty evenly match the titans during this stage and not completely stomp them like he does later on.

Kierian and I have proposed the following: >At least 9-A, possibly Low 7-C physically, Low 7-B with Crucible

Seeing as the crucible was necessary for the dreadnought and Icon. It seems like this fits.
 
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KieranH10

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Meat Hook could be Thread Manipulation imo (Or Chain Manipulation if we still had it), but firing the chain hook and swinging from it sounds more applicable to Thread Manipulation. I'm not sure on Acrobatics, if he hasn't shown it we cant really give it.

The rest seems fine.
 
Ehhh....

The Artbook already stated the demons grew stronger after the events of 2016. So it definitely doesn’t take that long,it’s likely not combat applicable tho.
 
Not OG doomguy. There’s evidence for reactive power level beforehand,with him matching Sentinels with 0.09 tons in AP as a smol baseline physically nerd and jumping the strength gap. Could be attributed to willpower or something.
 
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I’m gonna leave this CRT on some staff member’s walls so we can see if this gets approved within a week of it being made lmao
 
Idk.

Last,last thing I wanna add is resistance to Mind Manip via the Archvilles coming in prior keys. The lore doesn’t state the Archville had evolved much prior to their OG counterparts and since the classic marine was able to face them without getting manip’ it should count.
 

KieranH10

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Arch-Vile stuff seems fine too.

There is actually some stuff I might as well bring up while we're here, saves making another thread later.

About Doomguy's NPI, it needs moving to his Eternal Key, the current justification is through Lost Souls afaik which have been confirmed physical beings and not actual souls. However in Eternal Doomguy manages to attack the Soul in the Gladiators Shield, and in Ancient Gods his weapons can harm spirits.

So basically NPI needs moving to the modern keys for the Slayer and his weapons.
 
Hmm idk,there isn’t any lore reason as why the Doomslayer can suddenly touch intangibles. It’s not mentioned in the blessing,so it’s be pretty weird for him to only have it in Eternal.
 
yeah it got yeeted lmao.

Ok the very last thing is giving the Doomguy all the resistances (besides soul manip) that the other demons have. Most of him getting harmed by environmental hazards seem like gameplay.


OG doomguy could scale to a degree.
 
alright.

Just a quick question,can the Crucible’s “cauterized wounds immediately after cutting” be used as a means of limited regeneration negating? Irrc,some regeneration requires cells to reform afterwards,but crisping them would delete the cells to begin with.
 
Just to absolutely clarify, he gets he crucible. A low 7-B weapon as it was capable of slaying titans.

So it would look like, 9-A, low 7-B with the crucible. If not it could be higher since the blade scales above his physicals.
 

KieranH10

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Yes that's fine, the Crucible has been shown to slay Titans and even the Icon of Sin. So if the new key gets it then it should also be this strong with it.

O, really quick, about the NPI stuff, I think weapons should have it moved to their modern keys since they're later models so it makes sense.
 
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Not quite sure an other key is necessary; the current keys covers him when he is playable, so missing a small handful of abilities between game timeskips is completly fine with me. But if the majority agree with adding a key then that is fine too.

But... I have some objections with some of the suggestions.

Immortality type 2/4 Negation: Gains the crucible blade during his stay,even before blessed with by the divinity machine.
There are two issues with this:

1. It is indicated that the Doom Slayer got the Crucible after the Divinity Machine

What rose from the holy coffin on that fateful day was not the impure abomination the covenant warned us of; the hero within would come to be known only as the Great Slayer, the time walker, the warrior Khan whose fire-sword would blaze forth a path for the just and cut through the demonic horde with a vengeance that only a God King could summon. He rose unbroken by the Ritual, his eyes burning with Maykr magic. He took the Crucible in his hand, and Wraith-fire leapt forth from the blade, as only it will when held by a true Sentinel warrior king. ~History of the Sentinels - Part IX

Doom_Eternal_Sentinel_Codex_Part_9.png

Note that the Crucible is different from normal Argent blades (like the Sentinel spears, Marauder's axe, or that cool guitar with Argent blades). The codex states that it will only ignite in the hands of a true Sentinel warrior king, and the writers stated in one of their streams that only the Doom Slayer's Crucible can uniquely be used to take out Titans unlike Marauder axes.

2. The Crucible does not negate immortality

No, no no no. This is a very common misconception, due to statements that Titans are immune to conventional weapons, with the Crucible being an exception... except that it is not the only exception.

It is well established that the Night Sentinel's Atlan mechs are capable of killing titans, and we are shown multiple background images of Atlan mechs stabbing Titans to death. Furthermore, the Doom Slayer killed the "Great One" Titan champion hell sent against him, and he did it without a Crucible blade (the Sentinel Crucible was stuck in the Dreadnought Titan in Taras Nabad, and the demonic Crucible is only acquired after Doom 2016), and since the Titan would be immune to conventional weapons then the statement writers made about him killing the Titan with his fists is literal.

So basically, Titans can be 'killed' with two methods:
  1. Overwhelming firepower (Atlan mechs, and an angry Doom Slayer)
  2. Being stabbed with a Crucible blade
But the Crucible blade does not literally kill the Titans dead; it seals a Titan as long as the blade is lodged into them, and if the blade is removed then the Titan will rise again. Which is why the Doom Slayer dislodged the hilt of the Crucible after stabbing Titans. So it would be an 'easy method' to get rid of Titans.

There was general agreement to remove Immortality Negation for the Crucible, and replace it with Paralysis Inducement, in a previous CRT, but it was not applied.

Heat Manip: Pretty weird he doesn’t have it and only has resistance to it. The Ballista fires argent energy,which is superior to the superheated shots of the plasma rifle.
It has been argued that this would be redundant, as most Plasma Manipulation and plasma weapons work via. superheated gas.

About Doomguy's NPI, it needs moving to his Eternal Key, the current justification is through Lost Souls afaik which have been confirmed physical beings and not actual souls. However in Eternal Doomguy manages to attack the Soul in the Gladiators Shield, and in Ancient Gods his weapons can harm spirits.
Agreed. But then again, the first Eternal DLC introduced an enemy called "Spirit" who cannot be physically harmed without the Microwave Beam mod, so the Gladiator shield feat might not be valid for NPI.

Hmm idk,there isn’t any lore reason as why the Doomslayer can suddenly touch intangibles. It’s not mentioned in the blessing,so it’s be pretty weird for him to only have it in Eternal.
Could be any number of reasons, and that is if we consider the Gladiator shield feat to be non-physical interaction. But does Doomguy have feats for touching intangible beings?

Wait

WHAT.
The Chain Manipulation page was deleted, and the term reroutes to the Metal Manipulation page.

There is a problem in that the Meat Hook is not a standard issue modification.
A weapon from the Slayer's past, this double-barreled shotgun displays ornate, undeciphered diligree carvings. It also includes a modification, a twin-pronged hook anchored with a retractable chain designed for under-barrel usage. Though the firearm appears to be of Earthly design, the "meathook" attachment is comprised of non-terra metals, suggesting some level of prior history offworld. Its place in the Slayer's arsenal in Hell has already been recorded, as noted in the following translation of the Ungmar Codex:

"The sting of the Slayer's abominable arsenal casts fear into the lowest of our kin. It's blazing barrels of brimstone spew his vitriol and loathing upon us, and cast our brethern to the dirt. Mark the venom of his chosen apparatus of agony, the Diabolical Musket, Lucifer's Bane; it's claw of pig iron gouging the flesh of the martyr and hurrying him upon us. Curse the name of his beloved treasure. Curse the Hell Walker's device of torment. We shall cast it into the smelter and gild his entrails with the slurry."
~Super Shotgun

So it would be speculative to claim that Doomguy had the meathook before the Divinity Machine and before he got goated.
Though if it is to be added, I think we should just add "Chain Manipulation" (which will lead to the Metal Manipulation page automatically); it is certainly more accurate than 'Thread Manipulation'.

He should also get Forcefield creation because of the shield mod and wall crawling for you know... crawling on walls.
If you are talking about the Chaingun, that is a weapon made by ARC, and not a Sentinel standard issue. He doesn't literally stick to walls to my knowledge, so normal climbing would be Acrobatics rather than Surface Scaling.
 
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The Crucible thing was brought up in the last CRT, after the one where that was accepted happened. The weapon is stated to be one of the FEW things strong enough to kill titans. The proof for paralysis is that they get up if you take the sword out, but this was addressed already. If the sword negates their resurrection, then taking the blade out would logically allow them to resurrect.

Type 4 immortality neg requires the least assumptions. If you can find proof that the Crucible paralyzes them but doesn’t negate their resurrection in the lore, please do so, because otherwise you’re just making assumptions.

Why isn’t the Gladiator feat valid? What reasoning is there against it? All we know is that there is a spirit in the shield, Doom Slayer stabs the eye where the spirit is, and the shield explodes. The method taking the least assumptions here leads to NPI. If you can prove that the soul inside the shield is physical, do so.
 

KieranH10

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Not quite sure an other key is necessary; the current keys covers him when he is playable, so missing a small handful of abilities between game timeskips is completly fine with me. But if the majority agree with adding a key then that is fine too.
I think it represents an important enough timeframe in his story to warrant a key personally.

I'm not touching on the Crucible stuff because I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to give any further input, I'll leave this up to the others.
It has been argued that this would be redundant, as most Plasma Manipulation and plasma weapons work via. superheated gas.
I guess that makes a lot of sense, Plasma Manipulation should be used instead then
Agreed. But then again, the first Eternal DLC introduced an enemy called "Spirit" who cannot be physically harmed without the Microwave Beam mod, so the Gladiator shield feat might not be valid for NPI.
I think the Gladiator Shield is valid enough, Doomguy not being able to hit them could be Game Mechanics.
Could be any number of reasons, and that is if we consider the Gladiator shield feat to be non-physical interaction. But does Doomguy have feats for touching intangible beings?
That makes sense, afaik we only had Classic Doomguy having NPI in the first place through the Lost Souls, so he likely doesn't warrant it.
The Chain Manipulation page was deleted, and the term reroutes to the Metal Manipulation page.
I think we should just add "Chain Manipulation" (which will lead to the Metal Manipulation page automatically); it is more accurate than 'Thread Manipulation'.
Makes sense, didn't notice the redirect so yeah that's fine
If you are talking about the Chaingun, that is a weapon made by ARC, and not a Sentinel standard issue. He doesn't literally stick to walls to my knowledge, so normal climbing would be Acrobatics rather than Surface Scaling.
In this they were talking about the Eternal Slayer getting the ability I think, so yeah Eternal Slayer should still get Forcefield Creation from his Chaingun
 
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The Crucible thing was brought up in the last CRT, after the one where that was accepted happened. The weapon is stated to be one of the FEW things strong enough to kill titans. The proof for paralysis is that they get up if you take the sword out, but this was addressed already. If the sword negates their resurrection, then taking the blade out would logically allow them to resurrect.

Type 4 immortality neg requires the least assumptions. If you can find proof that the Crucible paralyzes them but doesn’t negate their resurrection in the lore, please do so, because otherwise you’re just making assumptions.

Why isn’t the Gladiator feat valid? What reasoning is there against it? All we know is that there is a spirit in the shield, Doom Slayer stabs the eye where the spirit is, and the shield explodes. The method taking the least assumptions here leads to NPI. If you can prove that the soul inside the shield is physical, do so.
Ok, can you give a statement that Titans can resurrect which does not talk about the Crucible blade being removed?
And do you deny that Atlan mechs, and Doom Slayer w/o a Crucible, can kill Titans through physical force? If not, then why didn't the Titans they kill resurrect?

The problem is the introduction of a "Spirit" enemy in the first DLC, which the Doom Slayer can't harm through conventional means. So unless the Doom Slayer lost his NPI during the DLC, then it seems that the soul in the shield had physical manifestation like the "lost souls" demons.
 

KieranH10

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Also, i've stumbled on some new information, the current key being proposed supposedly fought against a Titan alone, which would put him at Low 7-C physically.
UAC REPORT FILE ZPHVM41A None could stand before the horde but the Doom Slayer. Despair spread before him like a plague, striking fear into the shadow-dwellers, driving them to deeper and darker pits. But from the depths of the abyss rose The Great One, a champion mightier than all who had come before. The Titan, of immeasurable power and ferocity. He strode upon the plain and faced the Doom Slayer, and a mighty battle was fought on the desolate plains. The Titan fought with the fury of the countless that had fallen at the Doom Slayer's hand, but there fell the Titan, and in his defeat the shadow horde were routed
Slayers Testament V
 
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^ This is talking about Doom Slayer after he was bestowed great power by the Seaphim, and after he invaded hell and killed demons for eons, so not about the proposed key.
 
What?

Those are separate titans.

Taras Nabad happened before the great rampage. As that had only happened after the Doomslayer was locked in hell during the unholy crusade. That mentions a completely different Titan other than the Dreadnought.

He would become 7-C after killing demons for eons due to RP. The proposed key would have him become equal to the Titan’s GPE since he didn’t really grow stronger right out fresh from the divinity machine.

Like Kierian had mentioned in elsewhere:Here is how it would look like.

At least 9-A, possibly Low 7-C physically, Low 7-B with Crucible

Which brings to a new proposal of calling this a Night Sentinel key rather than just pre-divinity.
 
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Ok, can you give a statement that Titans can resurrect which does not talk about the Crucible blade being removed?
And do you deny that Atlan mechs, and Doom Slayer w/o a Crucible, can kill Titans through physical force? If not, then why didn't the Titans they kill resurrect?
Are you questioning that titans can resurrect? If I follow the logic you’re using with that, Titans just overall don’t resurrect.

Why are you saying “through physical force”? How are you assuming that mechs don’t have weapons that can keep them dead, where it’s directly stated that there’s more weapons than just the Crucible? The mechs were literally made to fight titan-class demons, and if there’s other weapons like the Crucible like the Codex directly states, they would have them. Also, titans can be killed through physical force. Nobody ever claimed differently, they just resurrect.

If we accept that titans resurrect, which we do currently, how do you know they didn’t resurrect and we just weren’t told that they did? We accept Hell as an infinite realm, you can’t factually say that they didn’t resurrect if we accept titans resurrecting.

But, here’s where everything about this falls apart. Not everything that looks like a titan is a titan, most of what we see are Hell Barges. Titans are gifted are special hell magic, and the titans that we know of resurrect if not nulled by something like The Crucible. It links back to you having to prove that the Crucible paralyzes them instead of keeping them from resurrecting. So, I’ll repeat myself, what’s your proof for that?

The problem is the introduction of a "Spirit" enemy in the first DLC, which the Doom Slayer can't harm through conventional means. So unless the Doom Slayer lost his NPI during the DLC, then it seems that the soul in the shield had physical manifestation like the "lost souls" demons.
This was already discussed. His weapons can harm Spirits, it’s just not what’s intended by the game. But your other weapons do in fact damage them, it’s just extremely minimal and absolutely not what you want to do, or what the game intends for you to do, but it’s possible. Therefore, he didn’t lose his NPI.

Either way, it was his blade that hurt the spirit in the shield. Not his guns. Completely different weapons, even if your guns couldn’t harm spirits, it wouldn’t equate to the blade itself.
 
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There are three named Titans:

1- The Dreadnought Titan: Sent to invade Taras Nabad, and prompted the Seraphim to amp Doomguy with the Divinity Machine, and soon after the awakened Doom Slayer stabbed it with the Sentinel Crucible. The hilt of the Sentinel Crucible was later retrieved in Doom Eternal.
2- The 'Great One/Champion' Titan: Sent by hell as their best attempt to kill the Doom Slayer after he was killing demons for eons. The Doom Slayer didn't have access to a Crucible and it is confirmed by writers that he didn't use an Atlan mech, so it would be through physical attacks.
3- The Icon of Sin: Stabbed with the Sentinel Crucible.

The one in the Slayer Testament is talking about the second Titan, which is mentioned after an entry about the Doom Slayer being blessed by the Seraphim and an entry about him killing demons for eons, so it doesn't have to do with any pre-Divinity Machine key.


Did someone come up with a calc that puts the RP at 7-C? Is there an RP statement for Doom Slayer before he got in the Divinity Machine?
And yes, it is stated that the Doom Slayer got blessed with great power and speed from the Divinity Machine.
The Crucible is basically a hax against Titans, so not sure why it would physically scale to them.

Not sure if it is worth anything, but Samuel Hayden used the demonic Crucible as a conductor in order to solve the human energy crisis in Earth in other colonies; so it holds enough energy to sustain human power consumption for the foreseeable future.
 
The one in the Slayer Testament is talking about the second Titan, which is mentioned after an entry about the Doom Slayer being blessed by the Seraphim and an entry about him killing demons for eons, so it doesn't have to do with any pre-Divinity Machine key.



Did someone come up with a calc that puts the RP at 7-C? Is there an RP statement for Doom Slayer before he got in the Divinity Machine?
And yes, it is stated that the Doom Slayer got blessed with great power and speed from the Divinity Machine.
I mentioned in a previous post about replacing the Pre-Divinity Key with a Night Sentinel Key. Which would include when he shoved into the magic box afterwards. Making him scale to the GPE of barges since he matched the titans evenly instead of stomping them like he does in eternal/during his rampage.

There aren’t,but he did get more powerful during his rampage in hell.


The 'Great One/Champion' Titan: Sent by hell as their best attempt to kill the Doom Slayer after he was killing demons for eons. The Doom Slayer didn't have access to a Crucible and it is confirmed by writers that he didn't use an Atlan mech, so it would be through physical attacks.
I should mention that Titans are just blessed with magic and more powerful than Barges in general. Not all had ressurection. As a matter of fact,most of the lore indicates them specializing in something.

1. Icon/Dreadnought: Ressurection,unable to be put down by normal means.

2. The Champion - as the codex would state (a champion mightier than all who had come before...The Titan fought with the fury of the countless that had fallen at the Doom Slayer's hand). So this means the Titan was stronger than the titans (dreadnought) who were before them and absorbed the strength of those slain to face the slayer. Kind of like how the Slayer operated. His main thing was just being stronk.

3. Malrog (Servant to the gods,largest Titan of them all).
The Crucible is basically a hax against Titans, so not sure why it would physically scale to them.
It’s clear the slayer needed it to slay the dreadnought first time around,and had to first tear apart the icon (with fist and sword) in order to plunge it in to neg ressurection.
 
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The Crucible is still a sword that cuts things, even if in an abnormal way, so if it has feats of cutting things with that durability, then we can put the Crucible at a certain level as a minimum. Hax wouldn’t let it just cut through anything.
 
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Are you questioning that titans can resurrect? If I follow the logic you’re using with that, Titans just overall don’t resurrect.
Correct. If the statement I asked for exists, then there would be no room to question. So it would be helpful if you would confirm if such statement exists or not.
If such a statement does not exist, then how did you come to the conclusion that a Titan will keep resurrecting if the Crucible blade is not involved?

Why are you saying “through physical force”? How are you assuming that mechs don’t have weapons that can keep them dead, where it’s directly stated that there’s more weapons than just the Crucible? The mechs were literally made to fight titan-class demons, and if there’s other weapons like the Crucible like the Codex directly states, they would have them. Also, titans can be killed through physical force. Nobody ever claimed differently, they just resurrect.
Because Hugo and Martin said that the Doom Slayer killed the Dreadnought with his guns and bare hands. Because the Atlans skewered Titans and kept killing demons until they ran out of fuel. That is physical force. It is up to you to prove that it is more than what is stated.

On the contrary, it is stated that the Crucible is unique:
A sacred relic of the Sentinel People, the Crucible remains one of the most mysterious artifacts known to man. Texts from Argent D'Nur reference the weapon in a revered, righteous manner; while Night Sentinels were known to employ similar energy-based blades in their armaments, the Crucible remains the only one powerful enough to reportedly slay titan-class demons.

Only the Slayer holds knowledge of this venerated sword, for only he has been known to wield it. The blade burns with ethereal heat, immediately cauterizing flesh as it slices through.
~Crucible
Mind you that Hugo said that all Argent/Wraith energy swords/axes/spears have the same power level, are equally durable, and will never break. So there is something unique with the way the Crucible slays Titans, which is to stab them, and they'll stay down as long as they are stabbed.

Substantiate your claim that they resurrect if the Crucible is not involved.

If we accept that titans resurrect, which we do currently, how do you know they didn’t resurrect and we just weren’t told that they did? We accept Hell as an infinite realm, you can’t factually say that they didn’t resurrect if we accept titans resurrecting.
Did you just concede that we aren't told that Titans resurrect upon death?
The statement that comes afterwards is somehow worse; we should assume that they resurrect because Hell is infinite, and if the wiki currently says something, we can't say otherwise in a CRT?

But, here’s where everything about this falls apart. Not everything that looks like a titan is a titan, most of what we see are Hell Barges. Titans are gifted are special hell magic, and the titans that we know of resurrect if not nulled by something like The Crucible. It links back to you having to prove that the Crucible paralyzes them instead of keeping them from resurrecting. So, I’ll repeat myself, what’s your proof for that?
Wait, so you are claiming that not everything that is Titan-class qualifies as 'a true Titan', and that there are Titan-like beings who resurrect and Titan-like beings who do not resurrect? Where does this come from?
The codex literally calls Hell Barges slave titans.

Titans have many anti-feats of not resurrecting when killed by something other than the Crucible. That is sufficient as proof.



I concede the point about NPI and the Gladiator Soul; I am fine with it as long as NPI is moved to post-Divinity Machine, and it is explained that the NPI feats were done through stabbing the soul entombed within the Gladiator's shield + can harm Spirits using microwave beam.
Can't believe I forgot about Maligog.



If the new key includes the Divinity Machine and scale him with barges, wouldn't that just be the same as 2016 Doom Slayer but with less equipment, inferior armor, and unquantifiably weaker? Imo, it makes the key more redundant.

1. Icon/Dreadnought: Ressurection,unable to be put down by normal means.
Though it was mentioned that they were unable to be put down by normal means due to how durable they were.
For the Dreadnought:
"But though the swarm fell before their assault, the Titan remained invincible, for none could tame the behemoth alone."
But the Doom Slayer caved part of the 'invincible' Dreadnought chest in post-Divinity Machine. It is of note that Sentinels already had the weapons and technology to take down Titans like the Ancestral, so there is a good chance that they would be able to kill the Dreadnought if they had prep.

The Icon of Sin scales above Hell Barges who are described as such:
"The Thrall, possessing superior resilience, proved indestructible by conventional weapons, thwarting all attempts by Armored Response Coalition defensive forces."
If ARC can't damage Hell Barges with conventional weapons then they can't do much against the Icon of Sin.

Nothing about them resurrecting if the Sentinel/ARC theoretically delivers lethal damage. Also note, that the Crucible is stated to be uniquely capable of slaying Titan-class demons unlike other energy melee weapons; this is talking about a general category not a small handful of Titans.


Looking at it, the Crucible would scale to Small City level due to it being considered superior to the Doom Slayer's physical attacks (or if we low-ball it, superior to the energy of the 8-A two megakelvin laser), but 'cutting/harming/slaying a Titan' by itself is a weak justification (similar to mosquito scaling to humans via. stabbing through their skin, and lightsabers scaling to Mountain level due to it being used to cut a tiny chunk out of a mountain); it either references the hax, or makes it seem like the Crucible is being used to split Titans in half or something to that effect. So the justification should be worded to scale to Eternal's Doom Slayer and the Icon of Sin.

Due to Hugo's statement that the Marauder's axe is comparable to the Crucible, would this mean that the Marauder gets an upgrade to his AP?
 
Though it was mentioned that they were unable to be put down by normal means due to how
Not the Icon lmao. The Icon ressurected after the events of Doom 2.

Hmm,I don’t agree they would have been able to take down the dreadnought by themselves even with prep. The Dreadnought was clearly superior to the basic bitch Hell Barge we see strolling around in hell. The mf codex even states,

First came the Ancestrals, feral creatures invigorated by the magic of the Wraiths. They grew to enormous heights, mighty behemoths who waged war with each other for years untold. Their battles tore the land asunder and destroyed all creation caught in their wake. The Wraithcall continued to spread across the land and soon the Argenta emerged from the steppes, our souls stirred into form by the power of their breath.

The titans towered over the wild-blooded tribes but found them uncowed. The Secret of the Sword was discovered, and in the darkness of sweltering mountain-forges, we beat steel until it was strong enough to pierce bone and sever flesh.

Thus we came to be; born of rock and fire, lowly in birth but risen by the strength of our will. By the blessedness of the First Ones, we forged sword and shield and took the hammer to the Ancestrals. We claimed dominion of creation by right of blood and magick, and the Time of Man came to be.

So it’s clear that an army of trained sentinels have taken on the Ancestrals,who were Titan class creatures who came before the basic bitch hell barge and more specialized Titans. I really doubt your statement would be true if the Dreadnought was capable of being put down by normal means,since it was so astronomically above anything that they have ever faced before. The Doomslayer likely used the crucible to cave in the chest,rather than simple raw strength. Especially since it was placed right in the opened wound afterwards.



Now you might be asking. What is the difference between the basic bitch barge and the more specialized mfs? Well the others have powers that separate them from the rest. What Axx meant was that the average Hell Barge (Slaved Titan) isn’t comparable at all to the more specialized guys. They might be the same species, but the ones named have more clear cut special attributes that separate them from the horde. You can’t really say a regular Titan getting downed by a spear is really comparable the Icon getting doinked by the crucible.


conventional weapons
When they mean “conventional weapons” they most likely mean high powered artillery and the like. Such as those cannons you can see mounted on the walls to blast the tenticles,or those mechs showcased in the Artbook. Conventional weaponry is a really broad term. They might be highly advanced,but more extreme measures might not have been taken since they were not conventional (firing the BFG10K,nukes,Doomslayer’s fist,etc).

What I’m getting at here is that neither the Barges or the Icon are leagues above those types of weapons since they aren’t by definition conventional.
If the new key includes the Divinity Machine and scale him with barges, wouldn't that just be the same as 2016 Doom Slayer but with less equipment, inferior armor, and unquantifiably weaker? Imo, it makes the key more redundant.
He gains more abilities and certain abilities get moved earlier. While also getting new AP scaling and the crucible hax’s. It represents a pretty important chunk of the Doomslayer’s lifetime so it seems reasonable for it to have its own key. Regardless if it’s inferior to the 2016 edition (especially since he doesn’t even have the crucible during 2016 lol).


Fair on the AP part.



it either references the hax, or makes it seem like the Crucible is being used to split Titans in half or something to that effect.
The wound on the dreadnought and the blood covered crucible held by the slayer afterwards showcased by the art seems to suggest otherwise.


hold up. Might have some lore that would contradict that
 
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Ok, why do you need another statement though? It’s literally either resurrection or paralysis inducement, and if the titan is dead, paralyzing it would be completely useless if it can’t resurrect in the first place. The only way that Paralysis works in that scenario is assuming that the titan is just knocked out, which is wrong, as it’s stated he killed it. Also, the wording is “rise again”, a very common term for resurrecting in fiction. I never said Titans can’t be killed by brute force, stop trying to say I made that claim. Those weapons are the only ones that can kill them because titan-class demons are tough as shit.

I didn’t concede to anything. Titans are created for specific purposes, not every titan is supposed to resurrect. The Champion’s thing was that it got stronger because of the slain demons, it was meant to be a rival to the Doom Slayer. The Servant/whatever it’s called from the DLC is the biggest and it’s only purpose is to lift that platform up to the place the Father and the Dark Lord’s life orbs are. The Icon and the Dreadnaught resurrect because they’re meant to be eternal powerhouses, which is why you NEED a weapon that can keep them from resurrecting.

Ok? What does them saying those weapons are comparable to the Crucible disprove? That’s just death of the author as it directly contradicts the game.

I was wrong, not all Titans can resurrect. Hell Barges are non-specialized Titans.

Wait, so you are claiming that not everything that is Titan-class qualifies as 'a true Titan', and that there are Titan-like beings who resurrect and Titan-like beings who do not resurrect? Where does this come from?
The codex literally calls Hell Barges slave titans.

Titans have many anti-feats of not resurrecting when killed by something other than the Crucible. That is sufficient as proof.
Yes, because there are specialized Titans like the Icon of Sin, the Dreadnaught, The Champion, and the last titan we see in the DLC. They aren’t anti-feats, I had a misunderstanding.
But the Doom Slayer caved part of the 'invincible' Dreadnought chest in post-Divinity Machine. It is of note that Sentinels already had the weapons and technology to take down Titans like the Ancestral, so there is a good chance that they would be able to kill the Dreadnought if they had prep.
Why are you taking a statement describing them as extremely tough as describing them as completely invincible?? The Dreadnaught is a specialized titan.
If ARC can't damage Hell Barges with conventional weapons then they can't do much against the Icon of Sin.

Nothing about them resurrecting if the Sentinel/ARC theoretically delivers lethal damage. Also note, that the Crucible is stated to be uniquely capable of slaying Titan-class demons unlike other energy melee weapons; this is talking about a general category not a small handful of Titans.
Not all Titans resurrect, that was a misunderstanding I had. “unlike other energy melee weapons;” This proves nothing. Hugo’s statements can just be dismissed because they directly contradict the game, so that point means literally nothing.

It was my fault I misunderstood that not all Titans resurrect initially, but I do now, but your arguments don’t work either way.

Dude, The Crucible is still a damn sword. We scale swords to what they cut. Your analogy comparing it to a light saber cutting part of a mountain doesn’t work, because one small section of a mountain doesn’t have mountain-level durability. Every part of the titans it cuts would logically have their durability unless shown otherwise.

I was additionally wrong about The Crucible being one of FEW weapons strong enough to kill titans like that, the codex says otherwise. Meaning we either dismiss the codex and take WoG, or we dismiss WoG and take the codex. I’d prefer using the codex, since death of the author.
 
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Doom Eternal's Icon of Sin is explicitly stated to be created after a ritual/deal made by the Betrayer to revive his son, so he was created well after Doom II and the previous appearance can't be used as evidence for passive or inherent resurrection. It appears that there are multiple Icons of Sin, especially since 2016 has an Icon of Sin's skull in the Necropolis level.
Arialicon.png


Paralysis/Stasis would not be useless, as it would be the 'easy and quick method' to slay a Titan without risking too much collateral damage.

Death of the Author is an analytical tool for ambiguous scenes, where we do not try to guess what the author intended when he wrote the story and then claim that this is superior to how readers interrupt the story.
What we have is a direct statement of lore, and it wasn't thrown whimsically; Hugo said that he thought extensively about it. It only contradicts specific headcanons (Crucible has more AP than Marauder axe or Sentinel spear), but it perfectly fits into the game if the Crucible reportedly has the unique power of killing/slaying Titans by sealing/parlysing them or putting them on stasis.

Mountains have their durability through total volume/weight, andto my knowledge Titans are given their durability through total volume/weight. But from what we've seen the Crucible only cut a relatively small part of the Titan. It would still get the rating by being more physically powerful than the Doom Slayer.


I would like Acausality Type 1 for Classic Doomguy:

Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timeline - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence. Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs.

As the Argenta traversed the stars with gleaming war-fleets the Khan of the Maykrs approached King Roan on his throne.

He sensed his God restless by her disquiet manner. The King and Khan spoke, and the God revealed she had foreseen a schism in the blood of Argenta. A test would be required to identify its host among us. She spoke of a holy rite to be performed on the strongest of our warriors; only those that proved worthy would be tested, for the impurity could reside in only the most resilient of our legion. The Divinity Machine, a great tribute by Maykr Scolaris, would help us to cleanse any impurities from our flock, ensuring our continued prosperity in this world and in the Maykr realm that awaited in the afterlife. The Malicious One, if not exhumed from our ranks, would jeopardize our safe passage to the heavenly realm of Urdak.

The Dark One was not amongst them yet, nor would he be for many generations. Only the Mother God, through divination and Maykr-sight, would determine when he stood before them. The Maykrs were truth, and only their unclouded eyes could find the one who was marked. The prophecy of the unholy one was written, but through the ages the warning grew faint until only the Khan Maykr herself and the high priests of the Order Deag still whispered of He that would one day come to threaten their way of light.

By using high-level precognition and time/dimensional travel, it was impossible to affect the Doom Slayer (even though he can be defeated, like with his capture prior to Doom 2016). Furthermore, omniscience through infinite timelines was incapable of figuring out the identity of the Doom Slayer, so they used the Divinity Machine on the strongest Sentinels to test for him.
 
Doom Eternal's Icon of Sin is explicitly stated to be created after a ritual/deal made by the Betrayer to revive his son, so he was created well after Doom II and the previous appearance can't be used as evidence for passive or inherent resurrection. It appears that there are multiple Icons of Sin, especially since 2016 has an Icon of Sin's skull in the Necropolis level.
The lore states the following for the description of The Necropolis in the account of “Why We Must”

Imagine yourself worshiping before the Icon of Sin, in awe of its splendor even as it sleeps till the Call of Ages comes.

So it’s sleeping/stasis and was never fully slain from the first game. It was reawakened by the ritual performed with the Betrayer’s son.

When the OG games state the following

shrivel up and dies

It’s clear the Icon was slain,and simply ressurected through the ritual.

This means the Icon was revived in some way or form through said ritual,which supports negation rather than paralysis.

Acausality seems fine.

They likely didn’t care too much about collateral,judging from the setpieces in which soon after they used Mechs to slay barges in Taras Nabad.
 
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I mean, paralysis would make sense in that case, but then it comes down to you having to prove that it's paralysis and not negging the immortality again. It still comes back to you having to definitively prove paralysis, as the thing that requires the least assumptions at the end of the day is immortality neg.
 
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I’m good with type 1 acausality for him, though.

Is the type 4 neg debate over? If so, is there anything left to discuss?
 
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The Icon of Sin is a big shot demon that is prophesized to return in the future, so it is not out of place for his absence to be called 'sleep/slumber'. The priests needing a ritual to revive/create the Icon of Sin means that the Icon of Sin doesn't have passive or inherent resurrection upon death using its own power, which is a strong point against Type 4 Immortality.

Actually, turns out Hugo answered a question about the Crucible's effect on the Titans
He said that the Crucible immobilizes Titans. As for Atlans taking down Titans, he said that he needs to think more about the mechanics to not make up an explanation on the fly.
I think this settles it?

  • Samuel Hayden said that only a Slayer's Crucible Blade can stop a Titan, and if the blade is removed the Titan will rise again
  • The Doom Slayer killed the Drednought Champion (and implied to have killed other demon Titans) with his guns and bare fists without access to either the Sentinel or Demonic Crucible
  • The Icon of Sin, who is a top-tier demon Titan, can die (Doom II), and can't revive on his own using his own power (Deag Grav needed to tempt Velen to offer his son in a ritual)
  • The Icon of Sin can receive physical damage (Doom Eternal)
So the explanation I provided fits in.


These are the changes I propose to the Post Sentinel training key abilities:

  • Thread Manipulation -> Chain Manipulation (His Super Shotgun had been armed with the Meat Hook by this time)
  • Negation of Immortality (Types 2 and 4) -> Paralysis Inducement (Can immobilize titans by stabbing them with the Crucible)
  • Sword Mastery ->Sword Mastery (Trained with elite Sentinel warriors in sword combat and was recognized as the very best amongst them, and wields the Crucible)
  • Heat Manipulation -> Plasma Manipulation (Armed with Sentinel Ballista),
Also, moving NPI to the 2016 (Was later able to stab the soul entombed in the Gladiator's shield) and Eternal Key (Is able to kill Spirits of slain Summoner demons through sustained and concentrated energy from his Microwave Beam).

There is an issue where it is implied that the Doom 2016 key has the meat hook and Crucible ('all previous abilities plus'). So the Doom 2016 key should have 'all previous abilities minus Paralysis Inducement and Chain Manipulation, plus...'.

Also, did Doom Guy really have a meat hook in his Super Shotgun in his pre-king Sentinel days?
The Super Shotgun is described to be human-designed, and it eventually caught on as seen by the Marauders, but I am not aware of evidence that the Doom Slayer customized it with a meat hook before Eternal.

Also, the Eternal key should have Preparation, since the Doom Slayer does research and customizes and upgrades his weapons and equipment as seen in the Fortress of Doom.

And Supernatural Willpower based on surviving what should be lethal injuries.
We knew not of this Stranger; his mind seemed crippled with rage. He dressed in attire not suited for our lands and carried munition of arcane origin. We watched as his will overcame his injuries, and in the Blood Arena he proved his worth. The Outlander's technique was crude and brutal, but the determination in his charge echoed that of any trueborn Sentinel. His war cry echoed through the Coliseum as did the sound of his fury, and the guards cheered his banner, 'Rip and Tear' they shouted as the beast pushed beyond mortal wounds and certain death.
 
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Also, did Doom Guy really have a meat hook in his Super Shotgun in his pre-king Sentinel days?
The Super Shotgun is described to be human-designed, and it eventually caught on as seen by the Marauders, but I am not aware of evidence that the Doom Slayer customized it with a meat hook before Eternal.
It was likely altered during his stay showing by the multitude of runes and makyr symbols upon the shotgun.It was stated by Vega to be “a relic of your past”. The sentinel society most likely replicated the technology,they have been more than capable of creating ranged weaponry like guns. The Ballista would be an example.
And Supernatural Willpower based on surviving what should be lethal injuries.
he has that already.



The Doom Slayer killed the Drednought (and implied to have killed other demon Titans) with his guns and bare fists without access to either the Sentinel or Demonic Crucible
You can clearly see in the Night sentinel drawing he was wielding the crucible ahead of the body of the Dreadnought. He and the blade were stained in blood,so it’s pretty well implied he used the crucible to kill it.

Also notice how he hadn’t planted the crucible in the Dreadnought either and only did so after he had maimed the Dreadnought. It’s likely it was to prevent him from rising up again.
 
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I’d like to say that Hugo statements aren’t the most reliable thing here. A lot of his statements (such as the Marauder one you linked earlier) contradicts the description of The Crucible. This one is pretty up to interpretation, but Hugo is nowhere near a reliable source, therefore shouldn’t be used.

So in conclusion, your only evidence for paralysis is things that are up to interpretation and assuming a negative, along with using a statement from someone who very often contradicts his own work. I don’t believe that’s good enough, it should probably just be taken at face value.
 

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You can clearly see in the Night sentinel drawing he was wielding the crucible ahead of the body of the Dreadnought. He and the blade were stained in blood,so it’s pretty well implied he used the crucible to kill it.

Also notice how he hadn’t planted the crucible in the Dreadnought either and only did so after he had maimed the Dreadnought. It’s likely it was to prevent him from rising up again.
I'd also note the Codex references Slayer wielding a great sword which could be implying the Codex
Consistent since Eternal does actually take a lot from the codex (Demon Priests, the Betrayer, the Seraphim etc)
 
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I know they were canon. I was questioning what HellBeast was trying to say, it sounds like he didn't know the codexes are canon.
 
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Ok meat hook in Sentinel key looks fine.

Meant the Champion not the Dreadnought, sorry for the mixup.


Description from an active director/writer for what is happening is as reliable as it gets.
At most, what he said contradicts fanon without violating canon, which is something that happens a lot with words of god and sequels. Whether the added the context that changes the apparent meaning is technically a retcon depends on whether this was originally planned, but it is nonetheless 100% canon as long as it doesn't explicitly contradicts something that was previously established.

Here the Crucible can absorb and store a large amount of Argent energy, and the Crucible is superior to other energy melee weapons due to uniquely having the power to stop Titans. Turns out that the power is only about the immobilization effect, and doesn't extend to blade durability and cutting.
 
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Power to stop Titans in general, yet other Titans can be killed through normal means because they don't resurrect?

It pretty obviously extends to cutting and durability if that's the case though. I don't see where this stuff about it not having the AP to do that comes from. It cuts things with X durability, therefore it has X AP

I genuinely can't tell at this point, do you believe the Dreadnaught resurrects or not?
 
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I'm also very confused on your point about this version of the Icon not resurrecting.

Like, we've established titans can be killed by strong enough brute force, and the Icon of Sin is no exception to this. It's body is literally falling apart and it's barely holding itself up in the cutscenes. The Doom Slayer could've just killed it and be done with, but he doesn't. He is stated to need the Crucible to stop the Icon, and he stabs it into his brain and knocks him off a cliff.

Also, if it was paralyzed from the Crucible, don't you think it would've been incapable of roaring, or attempting to grab it's way back onto the platform, or the cliff side? It's not like the paralysis takes that long.

Hugo statements aren't reliable. It's irrelevant if he's the creator, he consistently contradicts his work. Your generalization of it being an "active creator statement" doesn't work because this specific creator constantly contradicts his own work.
 

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...huh? The codexes are canon.
My point is the Codexes reference elements in the Universe (Sentinel Prime/Argent D'nur, Demon Priests/Hell Priests, The Betrayer etc) before seeing them in Doom: Eternal properly

So following that trend the sword of the Slayer is likely an early reference to the Crucible which is backed up by the fact no weapon is ever referred to as his sword metaporically.
 
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You can clearly see in the Night sentinel drawing he was wielding the crucible ahead of the body of the Dreadnought. He and the blade were stained in blood,so it’s pretty well implied he used the crucible to kill it.

Also notice how he hadn’t planted the crucible in the Dreadnought either and only did so after he had maimed the Dreadnought. It’s likely it was to prevent him from rising up again.
He used the Crucible to cut through a horde of lesser demons before he fought the Dreadnought which would be bloody, and the drawings are stylistic; they are not a literal snapshot with everything in the background happening at the same time.

Power to stop Titans in general, yet other Titans can be killed through normal means because they don't resurrect?

It pretty obviously extends to cutting and durability if that's the case though. I don't see where this stuff about it not having the AP to do that comes from. It cuts things with X durability, therefore it has X AP

I genuinely can't tell at this point, do you believe the Dreadnaught resurrects or not?

---

I'm also very confused on your point about this version of the Icon not resurrecting.

Like, we've established titans can be killed by strong enough brute force, and the Icon of Sin is no exception to this. It's body is literally falling apart and it's barely holding itself up in the cutscenes. The Doom Slayer could've just killed it and be done with, but he doesn't. He is stated to need the Crucible to stop the Icon, and he stabs it into his brain and knocks him off a cliff.

Also, if it was paralyzed from the Crucible, don't you think it would've been incapable of roaring, or attempting to grab it's way back onto the platform, or the cliff side? It's not like the paralysis takes that long.

Hugo statements aren't reliable. It's irrelevant if he's the creator, he consistently contradicts his work. Your generalization of it being an "active creator statement" doesn't work because this specific creator constantly contradicts his own work.
It is implied that killing a Titan through normal means would require a prolonged battle, so as I explained the Crucible would be useful.

I don't care how obvious you find a fan theory is; do you have an explicit statement that the cutting and durability of the Crucible is superior to the cutting and durability of Argent melee weapons, or that if the Crucible and Marauder's axe clash then the Marauder's axe will shatter?

The Dreadnought doesn't resurrect, as Titans (even top-tiers like Icon of Sin) lacks feats of passive resurrection, and there are no statement saying that they passively resurrect.


The Icon of Sin had years to resurrect on its own, but it didn't. Third parties had to do a ritual to make the Betrayer's son the new Icon of Sin. Where do you get that the Icon of Sin can resurrect on its own?

It is possible that Samuel underestimated the Doom Slayer, or thought that he will take too long to kill the Icon of Sin without the Crucible (Icon of Sin gets stronger with time and will eventually create a universe-consuming black hole). After all he is the same guy who said that the Khan Maykr is invulnerable as long as she has a life sphere within her chest, and we've seen how that fight went.

What is the problem with Paralysis taking 15 seconds to completly work?

So you reject the statement that the Doom Slayer can kill Titans with his bare hands? This is the main piece of evidence for Tier 7. You have yet to establish that Hugo 'constantly contradicts his work' or that he is unreliable, and when retcons happened we usually go with the most recent statement.

My point is the Codexes reference elements in the Universe (Sentinel Prime/Argent D'nur, Demon Priests/Hell Priests, The Betrayer etc) before seeing them in Doom: Eternal properly

So following that trend the sword of the Slayer is likely an early reference to the Crucible which is backed up by the fact no weapon is ever referred to as his sword metaporically.
The Slayer is the spear that stabs at the heart of our attackers, and those that would seek to harm us should feel warned - for there is only one dominant life form in this universe and it carries a steel barreled sword of vengeance. All hail the coming of the Destroyer - the Slayer's time is now. ~Dr. Elena Richardson

Story of Sentinels also calls Sentinel weaponry "sword", even though they have more diverse weapons than just swords.

And lore wise, the Doom Slayer didn't have a Crucible at that point; he left the Sentinel Crucible stuck in the Dreadnought, and he has yet to find the Demonic Crucible.
 

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I’m referring to the Codex with the sword comments which I thought was obvious

Secondly while we see them use other weapons swords are clearly an iconic weapon which we see them use in the artworks
 
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It is implied that killing a Titan through normal means would require a prolonged battle, so as I explained the Crucible would be useful.

I don't care how obvious you find a fan theory is; do you have an explicit statement that the cutting and durability of the Crucible is superior to the cutting and durability of Argent melee weapons, or that if the Crucible and Marauder's axe clash then the Marauder's axe will shatter?
That it's uniquely reported to kill titan-class demons, the thing that's stated in the codex? Because of IT'S STRENGTH?
The Dreadnought doesn't resurrect, as Titans (even top-tiers like Icon of Sin) lacks feats of passive resurrection, and there are no statement saying that they passively resurrect.
Other than the codex showing the thing's fucking dead before the Crucible is put into it? It's dead, it hasn't resurrected yet. Why would paralyzing a CORPSE do any good?

I dropped the argument saying Titans in general resurrected like... 5 posts ago. Not sure why you keep using that.


The Icon of Sin had years to resurrect on its own, but it didn't. Third parties had to do a ritual to make the Betrayer's son the new Icon of Sin. Where do you get that the Icon of Sin can resurrect on its own?
If it doesn't resurrect on it's own, why would putting the Crucible into it be of literally any help? It just dies. Pretty sure Kieran brought something up about the original Icon of Sin being incomplete as it's brain wasn't fully done yet, hence the hole in it's head. I may be wrong on that, though.
It is possible that Samuel underestimated the Doom Slayer, or thought that he will take too long to kill the Icon of Sin without the Crucible (Icon of Sin gets stronger with time and will eventually create a universe-consuming black hole). After all he is the same guy who said that the Khan Maykr is invulnerable as long as she has a life sphere within her chest, and we've seen how that fight went.
...what is this point even in response to?
What is the problem with Paralysis taking 15 seconds to completly work?
Because it... was stabbed into his brain? The thing that controls all the nerves? It would take affect instantly.
So you reject the statement that the Doom Slayer can kill Titans with his bare hands? This is the main piece of evidence for Tier 7. You have yet to establish that Hugo 'constantly contradicts his work' or that he is unreliable, and when retcons happened we usually go with the most recent statement.
I literally never did deny that, but he mainly uses the Crucible against the Dreadnaught, and it's dead. He DOES contradict his own work, you literally proved this by using his statement that the Marauder's axes are comparable to The Crucible when The Crucible is stated to be UNIQUELY CAPABLE OF KILLING TITAN-CLASS DEMONS.
The Slayer is the spear that stabs at the heart of our attackers, and those that would seek to harm us should feel warned - for there is only one dominant life form in this universe and it carries a steel barreled sword of vengeance. All hail the coming of the Destroyer - the Slayer's time is now. ~Dr. Elena Richardson

Story of Sentinels also calls Sentinel weaponry "sword", even though they have more diverse weapons than just swords.
Not entirely sure the relevance of this other than trying to argue semantics.
And lore wise, the Doom Slayer didn't have a Crucible at that point; he left the Sentinel Crucible stuck in the Dreadnought, and he has yet to find the Demonic Crucible.
He has what's stated to be the "Sword of the Slayer". I doubt it's referring to anything else, as that's what makes the most sense.
 
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Also, can you please try to shorten the lengths of your posts? It's genuinely very agitating to have to read 3 paragraphs about 1 point when 1 or 2 sentences gets the message across fine.
 
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I basically answered with one mini-paragraph (if they can even be called that) per point. I actually consider myself pretty concise, and what is written is about as short as needed to complete my point, and can't see how they could've been reasonably shortened without skipping points you made. Note that I sometimes combine multiple points in a single quote (if I believe this would be easier to read), so each new line is answering a different point.

That it's uniquely reported to kill titan-class demons, the thing that's stated in the codex? Because of IT'S STRENGTH?
Here is what the codex states:
A sacred relic of the Sentinel People, the Crucible remains one of the most mysterious artifacts known to man. Texts from Argent D'Nur reference the weapon in a revered, righteous manner; while Night Sentinels were known to employ similar energy-based blades in their armaments, the Crucible remains the only one powerful enough to reportedly slay titan-class demons. ~Crucible
No one disputes it has the unique power to slay titan-class demons, unlike the energy blades used by the Night Sentinels. But where does it say "Because of IT'S STRENGTH"?

Other than the codex showing the thing's fucking dead before the Crucible is put into it? It's dead, it hasn't resurrected yet. Why would paralyzing a CORPSE do any good?
Might as well argue that we should give Maykrs and the priests Large Size Type 1 or 2, because they are depicted as towering giants in the codex.
Doom_Eternal_Sentinel_Codex_Part_8.png
Doom_Eternal_Sentinel_Codex_Part_13.png

As I already said, the codex art can have artistic exaggerations, so not everything in the background is literal; the codex art's priority would be to depict two iconic scenes: the Sentinels seeing the Crucible and recognizing the Doom Slayer as king, and the Titan getting slayed. So nope; it doesn't establish that the Titan was already 'killed' without being poked by the Crucible.

If it doesn't resurrect on it's own, why would putting the Crucible into it be of literally any help? It just dies. Pretty sure Kieran brought something up about the original Icon of Sin being incomplete as it's brain wasn't fully done yet, hence the hole in it's head. I may be wrong on that, though.
If the Doom Slayer can kill the Spider Mastermind without the BFG9000, what is the point of blowing it up with the BFG? Rule of cool.
Per the ending of Doom II, the Icon of Sin has thrashing limbs, so no basis about it being incomplete; maybe you can say that it is made into a cyborg with an exposed weakpoint.
So unless you want to retcon the Icon of Sin dying in Doom II to rocket launchers...

...what is this point even in response to?
To your point which I quoted:
The Doom Slayer could've just killed it and be done with, but he doesn't. He is stated to need the Crucible to stop the Icon, and he stabs it into his brain and knocks him off a cliff.

Because it... was stabbed into his brain? The thing that controls all the nerves? It would take affect instantly.
This is non-sequitur. Do you have evidence that stabbing a fictional giant's brain and filling its body with blue energy (color code for Wraith energy) must have an instant effect as opposed to an effect in 30 seconds or 2 minutes? Shadow of the Colossus have giants that often gets stabbed in the brain, but they don't die or get knocked out instantly, what gives?

I literally never did deny that, but he mainly uses the Crucible against the Dreadnaught, and it's dead. He DOES contradict his own work, you literally proved this by using his statement that the Marauder's axes are comparable to The Crucible when The Crucible is stated to be UNIQUELY CAPABLE OF KILLING TITAN-CLASS DEMONS.
So why not reject his statement that the Doom Slayer can kill a Titan with his bare hands, and only argue for the tier of the Crucible? Maybe the Champion was killed by an Atlan mech because the Doom Slayer can't physically compete with it.

The Crucible is comparable in physical strength with energy blades, but energy blades lack the special power to slay/immobilize Titans by stabbing them. I don't see any contradiction.
And if you are to claim that he is regularly contradicting his work, then you need to provide a lot more examples. Not that the one you provided is convincing.

Not entirely sure the relevance of this other than trying to argue semantics.
Refutation to the claim that no weapon besides the Crucible was ever called a 'sword' metaphorically.

He has what's stated to be the "Sword of the Slayer". I doubt it's referring to anything else, as that's what makes the most sense.
These are the two references for 'sword' (no "Sword of the Slayer"):
He wore the crown of the Night Sentinels, and those that tasted the bite of his sword named him... the Doom Slayer.


The wretch adorned the Doom Slayer in a mighty armor, wrought in the forges of Hell, impenetrable and unyielding. With sword and shield of adamantine strength, the Doom Slayer set to banishing all that were left unbroken by his savagery to the void.

I am confused. Are you arguing for revisionism of Doom lore, where the Doom Slayer had a second Crucible before he killed the Champion Titan and before he got his Praetor Suit?
 
Might as well argue that we should give Maykrs and the priests Large Size, because they are depicted as giants in the codex.
Well yes. Both Khan Makyr and other angels look massive compared to the average human.

What supports this is that huge body you have to drain in order to progress through through urdak. So this is completely possible.

The codex art should be reliable,as we literally have no other visual depictions other than that.



So why not reject his statement that the Doom Slayer can kill a Titan with his bare hands, and only argue for the tier of the Crucible? Maybe the Champion was killed by an Atlan mech because the Doom Slayer can't physically compete with it.

The Crucible is comparable in physical strength with energy blades, but energy blades lack the special power to slay/immobilize Titans by stabbing them. I don't see any contradiction.
And if you are to claim that he is regularly contradicting his work, then you need to provide a lot more examples. Not that the one you provided is convincing
Fair.

Most of the points I agree with. I’m not saying the Doomslayer shouldn’t scale to the titans,what I am saying is that he used the crucible to slay le Titan and needed to break the blade within its chest to have it stop moving around (thus its negation to type 2).
 
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I basically answered with one mini-paragraph (if they can even be called that) per point. I actually consider myself pretty concise, and what is written is about as short as needed to complete my point, and can't see how they could've been reasonably shortened without skipping points you made. Note that I sometimes combine multiple points in a single quote (if I believe this would be easier to read), so each new line is answering a different point.


Here is what the codex states:
A sacred relic of the Sentinel People, the Crucible remains one of the most mysterious artifacts known to man. Texts from Argent D'Nur reference the weapon in a revered, righteous manner; while Night Sentinels were known to employ similar energy-based blades in their armaments, the Crucible remains the only one powerful enough to reportedly slay titan-class demons. ~Crucible
No one disputes it has the unique power to slay titan-class demons, unlike the energy blades used by the Night Sentinels. But where does it say "Because of IT'S STRENGTH"?
“the only one powerful enough” what else do you think this means?
Might as well argue that we should give Maykrs and the priests Large Size, because they are depicted as towering giants in the codex.
Doom_Eternal_Sentinel_Codex_Part_8.png
Doom_Eternal_Sentinel_Codex_Part_13.png

As I already said, the codex art can have artistic exaggerations, so not everything in the background is literal; the codex art's priority would be to depict two iconic scenes: the Sentinels seeing the Crucible and recognizing the Doom Slayer as king, and the Titan getting slayed. So nope; it doesn't establish that the Titan was already 'killed' without being poked by the Crucible.
It can have artistic exaggerations? Why would they show The Crucible in his hand and the body in the background if that’s not at least a portrayal of what happened?
If the Doom Slayer can kill the Spider Mastermind without the BFG9000, what is the point of blowing it up with the BFG? Rule of cool.
Per the ending of Doom II, the Icon of Sin has thrashing limbs, so no basis about it being incomplete; maybe you can say that it is made into a cyborg with an exposed weakpoint.
So unless you want to retcon the Icon of Sin dying in Doom II to rocket launchers...
But literally everything is saying that you NEED The Crucible to keep those 2 down. There’s no rule of cool there.
To your point which I quoted:
The Doom Slayer could've just killed it and be done with, but he doesn't. He is stated to need the Crucible to stop the Icon, and he stabs it into his brain and knocks him off a cliff.


This is non-sequitur. Do you have evidence that stabbing a fictional giant's brain and filling its body with blue energy (color code for Wraith energy) must have an instant effect as opposed to an effect in 30 seconds or 2 minutes? Shadow of the Colossus have giants that often gets stabbed in the brain, but they don't die or get knocked out instantly, what gives?
Why are you bringing up a different verse?

The proof is that the paralysis is being immediately put where it would cancel everything else out. You paralyze the brain, things that function via the brain don’t work. It would have happened relatively quickly, as the only other time it “paralyzed” something, it covered a big area within a second.
So why not reject his statement that the Doom Slayer can kill a Titan with his bare hands, and only argue for the tier of the Crucible? Maybe the Champion was killed by an Atlan mech because the Doom Slayer can't physically compete with it.
Because that’s perfectly possible? “Maybe the champion was killed by an Atlan Mech” what even is this point? The fight was between The Champion and The Slayer.
The Crucible is comparable in physical strength with energy blades, but energy blades lack the special power to slay/immobilize Titans by stabbing them. I don't see any contradiction.
That the Codex says it’s the only one powerful enough to slay titan-class demons? Marauder blades aren’t provably that strong. Nobody denies that brute force can kill them, the codex is specifically saying the strongest energy blade.
And if you are to claim that he is regularly contradicting his work, then you need to provide a lot more examples. Not that the one you provided is convincing.
Fine then. I’ll go find some.
Refutation to the claim that no weapon besides the Crucible was ever called a 'sword' metaphorically.
Do you have any proof The Slayer ever used... anything else? He’s known for his super shotgun and The Crucible.
These are the two references for 'sword' (no "Sword of the Slayer"):
He wore the crown of the Night Sentinels, and those that tasted the bite of his sword named him... the Doom Slayer.


The wretch adorned the Doom Slayer in a mighty armor, wrought in the forges of Hell, impenetrable and unyielding. With sword and shield of adamantine strength, the Doom Slayer set to banishing all that were left unbroken by his savagery to the void.

I am confused. Are you arguing for revisionism of Doom lore, where the Doom Slayer had a second Crucible before he killed the Champion Titan and before he got his Praetor Suit?
...no? What other sword would it be talking about? Do we even have a stated time for when he gets The Slayer’s Crucible?

Pretty sure there’s the Demonic Crucible as well, but I can’t remember if that was an alternate timeline thing or if that was the same timeline.
 
Pretty sure there’s the Demonic Crucible as well, but I can’t remember if that was an alternate timeline thing or if that was the same timeline.
Same timeline,but the demonic one was used as an energy source rather than a weapon.

Anywho,let’s find common ground here. There will be other CRT’s after this so let’s see what we can agree on.

Additions mentioned above and having instead

paralysis manip,sleep inducement via the crucible. Likely Immortality types 4 and 2 (prevents the Icon from ressurecting)
 
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His argument is dependant on The Dreadnaught, and his reasoning for it not resurrecting but somehow needing to have the Crucible in it’s body is literally Rule of Cool, which goes against the entire scene and the codex.

His argument overall is just weak. I don’t care if he doesn’t give it up, it’s a bad argument, and he has yet to definitively prove anything.

If he can’t definitively prove his interpretation within at least the next few hours, I would just say we should get staff evaluations and get this thread over with.
 
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“the only one powerful enough” what else do you think this means?
It means it has the unique power to immobilize Titans, as explained by the game director.

It can have artistic exaggerations? Why would they show The Crucible in his hand and the body in the background if that’s not at least a portrayal of what happened?
Yes, unless you believe building-sized priests were observing demons. They are showing two scenes explained in the codex; the Doom Slayer being embraced as king, and the implied scene that he slayed the Titan. Do you also believe that the Dreadnought was defeated on top of mountains instead of inside Taras Nabad.

But literally everything is saying that you NEED The Crucible to keep those 2 down. There’s no rule of cool there.
One of them is a 'it is believed that' statement, which is proven false many times, such as with the Icon of Sin dying to rocket launchers, Atlan mechs, and the Champion Titan.
The other comes from a source that claimed that the Khan Maykr is invulnerable as long as a Life Orb is within her chest, and claimed that the Doom Slayer needs to remove the orb first to take down her defenses.

Also, blue energy spreads from the Crucible blade only after the handle is detached; so it is possible that this indicates a 'permanent immobilization' and would serve a purpose besides being a cool overkill, which is legitimate by itself.

Why are you bringing up a different verse?

The proof is that the paralysis is being immediately put where it would cancel everything else out. You paralyze the brain, things that function via the brain don’t work. It would have happened relatively quickly, as the only other time it “paralyzed” something, it covered a big area within a second.
Why did you bring up a made-up rule?

Thank you for the lesson in fictional demon Titan neurobiology, but I don't see where the 'less than fifteen seconds' rule come from.

Because that’s perfectly possible? “Maybe the champion was killed by an Atlan Mech” what even is this point? The fight was between The Champion and The Slayer.
And it is perfectly possible that Titans were immobilized, which was canonicly confirmed.

It was actually a very popular fan theory that the Slayer used an Atlan mech, and the game director went out of his way to say 'he didn't use an Atlan mech' multiple times.

That the Codex says it’s the only one powerful enough to slay titan-class demons? Marauder blades aren’t provably that strong. Nobody denies that brute force can kill them, the codex is specifically saying the strongest energy blade.
Yes, due to the immobilization effect, which was canonicly confirmed. It is not expected for a Titan to be immobilized after being stabbed with a Marauder axe, nor is it expected to be filled with blue energy if the handle of a Marauder's axe is detached.
Recall the example of the light saber. It can have the AP to cut and slash at a small part of a mountain with little/no resistance, but it doesn't have the range to chop the entire mountain in half with one swing, even if it had Island level AP.

Do you have any proof The Slayer ever used... anything else? He’s known for his super shotgun and The Crucible.
Not relevant to my point nor did I make a claim about what weapons were used. Just saying that the Super Shotgun and Sentinel weapons were called swords metaphorically, despite not being literal swords like the Crucible.

...no? What other sword would it be talking about? Do we even have a stated time for when he gets The Slayer’s Crucible?

Pretty sure there’s the Demonic Crucible as well, but I can’t remember if that was an alternate timeline thing or if that was the same timeline.
Referring to a metaphorical expression for weapons, in he same way the Super Shotgun was called a sword of vengence.

There are two Crucibles:

  • The Sentinel Crucible, which was left in Talas Nabad with the Dreadnought (and was once owned by the Dark Lord according to the DLC codex)
  • The Demonic Crucible, which was found in Doom 2016, and used to absorb the energy of the Wraiths in the Wells. Samuel Hayden took it for himself and used it as an Argent battery for humans before the demonic invasion, and then used it to fight against demons with ARC. The Slayer retireved it in Doom Eternal and used it to power the Fortress of Doom.

Due to director statement, we know that the Champion Titan was defeated using guns and bare hands, so no Crucible when the Champion Titan was defeated or before the Wretch made/upgraded the Praetor Suit, and there is no evidence that the Doom Slayer encountered the Demonic Crucible before Doom 2016.


Same timeline,but the demonic one was used as an energy source rather than a weapon.

Anywho,let’s find common ground here. There will be other CRT’s after this so let’s see what we can agree on.

Additions mentioned above and having instead

paralysis manip,sleep inducement via the crucible. Likely Immortality types 4 and 2 (prevents the Icon from ressurecting)
I mean we have a canonical statement explaining what the Crucible does to Titans. It immobilizes them once the blade is placed inside them.


No point throwing in a contrary headcanon, let alone labeling it as 'likely'.
Not to mention that the headcanon is also debunked if we consider Doom II canon. Gee, I wonder what stopped the Icon of Sin from resurrecting on its own after it got murked by rocket launchers.
 
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It means it has the unique power to immobilize Titans, as explained by the game director.
“the only one powerful enough” does not say it has the power to immobilize them. It just says it has the power to slay titan-class demons.
Yes, unless you believe building-sized priests were observing demons. They are showing two scenes explained in the codex; the Doom Slayer being embraced as king, and the implied scene that he slayed the Titan. Do you also believe that the Dreadnought was defeated on top of mountains instead of inside Taras Nabad.
Why would the size being exaggerated in some of the art mean him holding the sword is an exaggeration??

Also, there’s holograms of the hell priests that are much bigger than the actual Hell Priests. That very well could explain what we see.
One of them is a 'it is believed that' statement, which is proven false many times, such as with the Icon of Sin dying to rocket launchers, Atlan mechs, and the Champion Titan.
Or... not all titans resurrect? Like I stopped saying 8 posts ago?

“one of them” so you admit the others are solid? Thanks.
The other comes from a source that claimed that the Khan Maykr is invulnerable as long as a Life Orb is within her chest, and claimed that the Doom Slayer needs to remove the orb first to take down her defenses.
Weren’t you literally saying Samuel hayden statements weren’t usable earlier?
Also, blue energy spreads from the Crucible blade only after the handle is detached; so it is possible that this indicates a 'permanent immobilization' and would serve a purpose besides being a cool overkill, which is legitimate by itself.
I don’t see why this proves paralyzation. The energy literally starts in it’s brain, and the Titans are repeatedly shown to have, at minimum, extremely similar biology as humans.
Why did you bring up a made-up rule?

Thank you for the lesson in fictional demon Titan neurobiology, but I don't see where the 'less than fifteen seconds' rule come from
It “paralyzed” his brain, but didn’t paralyze the rest? Are you arguing the paralyzation somehow doesn’t take affect until it’s reached their entire body??
And it is perfectly possible that Titans were immobilized, which was canonicly confirmed.
No, it was from a Hugo
It was actually a very popular fan theory that the Slayer used an Atlan mech, and the game director went out of his way to say 'he didn't use an Atlan mech' multiple times.
Ok. This just proves he was strong enough to kill it, and he had the “Sword of the Slayer”. Most likely the Crucible
Yes, due to the immobilization effect, which was canonicly confirmed. It is not expected for a Titan to be immobilized after being stabbed with a Marauder axe, nor is it expected to be filled with blue energy if the handle of a Marauder's axe is detached.
No. The Codex literally says it’s POWERFUL ENOUGH. An indication of STRENGTH, not paralysis.
Recall the example of the light saber. It can have the AP to cut and slash at a small part of a mountain with little/no resistance, but it doesn't have the range to chop the entire mountain in half with one swing, even if it had Island level AP.
...this is still irrelevant, as each part of a mountain doesn’t have mountain level durability.

The blade cut something that we accept as having low 7-B durability. Therefore, it has low 7-B AP. It’s not that hard.
Not relevant to my point nor did I make a claim about what weapons were used. Just saying that the Super Shotgun and Sentinel weapons were called swords metaphorically, despite not being literal swords like the Crucible.
Ok? It’s literally called the “Sword of the Slayer”. Why would the Sword of the Slayer NOT be The Crucible when it’s literally called the “Slayer’s Crucible”?
Referring to a metaphorical expression for weapons, in he same way the Super Shotgun was called a sword of vengence.
So he uses something called the “Sword of the Slayer”, and we know he has a weapon called the “Slayer’s Crucible”, but they’re not the same thing?
There are two Crucibles:

  • The Sentinel Crucible, which was left in Talas Nabad with the Dreadnought (and was once owned by the Dark Lord according to the DLC codex)
  • The Demonic Crucible, which was found in Doom 2016, and used to absorb the energy of the Wraiths in the Wells. Samuel Hayden took it for himself and used it as an Argent battery for humans before the demonic invasion, and then used it to fight against demons with ARC. The Slayer retireved it in Doom Eternal and used it to power the Fortress of Doom.

Due to director statement, we know that the Champion Titan was defeated using guns and bare hands, so no Crucible when the Champion Titan was defeated or before the Wretch made/upgraded the Praetor Suit, and there is no evidence that the Doom Slayer encountered the Demonic Crucible before Doom 2016.
Ok. Titans can be killed with brute strength, and he did that.



I mean we have a canonical statement explaining what the Crucible does to Titans. It immobilizes them once the blade is placed inside them.
It’s not a canonical statement. It’s a statement that contradicts the Codex.
 
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Your entire argument is contradictory. Your argument for paralysis literally only works if the Icon and Dreadnaught can’t resurrect, because we know they’re dead. They’re consistently referred to as dead. Paralyzing a corpse that can’t get up is pointless. Cool points are irrelevant here.

You’re using a hugo statement about it immobilizing them. Want me to argue semantics? Keeping something dead would immobilize them, and we know it’s dead.

If the Icon can’t resurrect, then the Crucible wouldn’t be needed to stop it. Because the Doom Slayer canonically fucked the complete Icon up and got it barely on it’s last strands of life, and then stabbed it in the head as it fell down a cliff, presumably to it’s death.

If it was paralysis, Titans are shown to have extremely similar physiologies to humans. Keep in mind, this Icon is additionally based on a human. It has human biology shown, yet “paralyzing” it’s brain didn’t paralyze everything else? It’s pure headcanon.
 
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“the only one powerful enough” does not say it has the power to immobilize them. It just says it has the power to slay titan-class demons.
Slay can mean either way; permament immobalization or death. We know from a canonical statement that it means immobilization. As simple as that.

Why would the size being exaggerated in some of the art mean him holding the sword is an exaggeration??

Also, there’s holograms of the hell priests that are much bigger than the actual Hell Priests. That very well could explain what we see.
Because iconic moments about glory are prone to get exagerated. One exageration would be the Titan being defeated on top of mountains instead of inside the city.

Not holograms as large as buildings, and not holograms created out in the open.

Or... not all titans resurrect? Like I stopped saying 8 posts ago?

“one of them” so you admit the others are solid? Thanks.
With one of these Titans being the Icon of Sin, which you claim can resurrect on its own. Also 'Titans can resurrect on their own' is a headcanon, so yes the ones killed by Atlan mechs are counter-evidence. Especially when the statement is talking about the Crucible's ability to slay titan-class demons in general.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth, very persuasive! Also, I believe that there are literally two statements only, lol.

Weren’t you literally saying Samuel hayden statements weren’t usable earlier?
Yes! So I explained why Samuel Hayden's statements aren't reliable in the very statement you are responding to.

Please try to comprehend what I said before responding. There is no charitable way to interept what I said as: "Samuel Hayden is a solid source for power scaling".

I don’t see why this proves paralyzation. The energy literally starts in it’s brain, and the Titans are repeatedly shown to have, at minimum, extremely similar biology as humans.
What proves paralyzation is the statement from the game director explaining what is happening, along wih overall consistency. It is just possible that there is an extra effect (such as 'permament immobilization') we don't know about when the hilt is detached from the Crucible blade, as blue/Wraith energy is released only when the hilt is detached.

Human biology doesn't have Argent Energy. 'oh yeah, if I stab the human brain with a tiny sword filled with weird alien immoblization energy, the human body should be fully immobalized within 1.2 seconds, as the alien energy spreads throughout the human's body' is completly baseless.

No, it was from a Hugo
The site considers statements from authors as canonical.

So he uses something called the “Sword of the Slayer”, and we know he has a weapon called the “Slayer’s Crucible”, but they’re not the same thing?
...
Ok? It’s literally called the “Sword of the Slayer”. Why would the Sword of the Slayer NOT be The Crucible when it’s literally called the “Slayer’s Crucible”?
...
So he uses something called the “Sword of the Slayer”, and we know he has a weapon called the “Slayer’s Crucible”, but they’re not the same thing?
Can you cite where the term "Sword of the Slayer" is 'literally' written or said? The closest I could find is 'sword and shield of adamantine strength', with the shield being his Praetor Suit made by the Wretch, and sword can refer to his weapons (such as the Super Shotgun which was called a sword of vengence in Eternal).

As far as I know, the "Slayer's Crucible" is only said once by Samuel Hayden talking about the Crucible stuck in the Dreadnought. So he definetly didn't have it.

No. The Codex literally says it’s POWERFUL ENOUGH. An indication of STRENGTH, not paralysis.
Being an indication of physical strength is headcanon.

...this is still irrelevant, as each part of a mountain doesn’t have mountain level durability.

The blade cut something that we accept as having low 7-B durability. Therefore, it has low 7-B AP. It’s not that hard.
Not relevant to what I said?

You can chop and stab the toe of a Titan with a Country level knife, but that won't be enough to slay the Titan.

Your entire argument is contradictory. Your argument for paralysis literally only works if the Icon and Dreadnaught can’t resurrect, because we know they’re dead. They’re consistently referred to as dead. Paralyzing a corpse that can’t get up is pointless. Cool points are irrelevant here.
Actually, one of the most powerful Titans, the Icon of Sin indeed can't resurrect on its own, as the Order of the Deag priests had to do it with a sacrifice.
'I've heard the term 'rise again' being used for the dead in fiction, therefore it means the Titans are dead' is a logically invalid argument, as it can perfectly be used to refer to slumber/paralysis.

You’re using a hugo statement about it immobilizing them. Want me to argue semantics? Keeping something dead would immobilize them, and we know it’s dead.
He was answering a question on whether the Crucible kills Titans or immobalizes them, and he said that it immobalizes them. Nice try with the semantic argument though.

If the Icon can’t resurrect, then the Crucible wouldn’t be needed to stop it. Because the Doom Slayer canonically fucked the complete Icon up and got it barely on it’s last strands of life, and then stabbed it in the head as it fell down a cliff, presumably to it’s death.
The same guy also claimed that the Doom Slayer needs to remove the Khan Maykr's orb from within her chest or she'll be invulnerable, and it turns out that the Doom Slayer can beat her up with the orb inside her chest anyway.
Reminder that rocket launchers to the brain canonicly killed the Icon of Sin.

If it was paralysis, Titans are shown to have extremely similar physiologies to humans. Keep in mind, this Icon is additionally based on a human. It has human biology shown, yet “paralyzing” it’s brain didn’t paralyze everything else? It’s pure headcanon.
It is not headcanon to speculate about how a human's body will react to fictional energy we don't know much about? Wut?
Lol, maybe if you flow Wraith energy to the non-demonic human brain it'll cause random Involuntary muscle contractions instead of paralysis. Of course, we can't prove this because it is headcanon.
 
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Slay can mean either way; permament immobalization or death. We know from a canonical statement that it means immobilization. As simple as that.
Slay is a synonym for KILL. Not immobilize. Stop stonewalling dude.
Because iconic moments about glory are prone to get exagerated. One exageration would be the Titan being defeated on top of mountains instead of inside the city.
The background isn't drawn in detail. Coild straight up just be in the city with mountains in the background, which lines up with what we're shown
Not holograms as large as buildings, and not holograms created out in the open.
Very possible though.
With one of these Titans being the Icon of Sin, which you claim can resurrect on its own. Also 'Titans can resurrect on their own' is a headcanon, so yes the ones killed by Atlan mechs are counter-evidence. Especially when the statement is talking about the Crucible's ability to slay titan-class demons in general.
I STOPPED ARGUING THAT ALL TITANS CAN REVIVE ON THEIR OWN ALMOST A PAGE AGO. DROP THAT POINT ALREADY. YOU'RE MISCONSTRUING MY ACTUAL POINT.
Thank you for putting words in my mouth, very persuasive! Also, I believe that there are literally two statements only, lol.
Ok, one of 2 statements is contradicted, yet the other still stands. Your statement about immobilization is 1 statement and it's contradicted.
Yes! So I explained why Samuel Hayden's statements aren't reliable in the very statement you are responding to.
Ok, but not all of them would be unreliable. We know the Dreadnaught is dead. Why would it rise again?
Please try to comprehend what I said before responding. There is no charitable way to interept what I said as: "Samuel Hayden is a solid source for power scaling".
I did. That's not what i said you're saying.
What proves paralyzation is the statement from the game director explaining what is happening, along wih overall consistency. It is just possible that there is an extra effect (such as 'permament immobilization') we don't know about when the hilt is detached from the Crucible blade, as blue/Wraith energy is
The statement CONTRADICTS THE CODEX. I'm going to keep saying this till you PROVE otherwise.
Human biology doesn't have Argent Energy. 'oh yeah, if I stab the human brain with a tiny sword filled with weird alien immoblization energy, the human body should be fully immobalized within 1.2 seconds, as the alien energy spreads throughout the human's body' is completly baseless.
Ok? It has a brain and human biology for the most part. Special magic on top of that doesn't disprove my point. Paralyzing the brain paralyzes the rest.
The site considers statements from authors as canonical.
If they are not contradictory. This one is contradictory, along with the other one you've been trying to use.
Can you cite where the term "Sword of the Slayer" is 'literally' written or said? The closest I could find is 'sword and shield of adamantine strength', with the shield being his Praetor Suit made by the Wretch, and sword can refer to his weapons (such as the Super Shotgun which was called a sword of vengence in Eternal).
"The sword CAN refer to his weapons" but is that the likely scenario?
As far as I know, the "Slayer's Crucible" is only said once by Samuel Hayden talking about the Crucible stuck in the Dreadnought. So he definetly didn't have it.
He can literally remake the blade?
Being an indication of physical strength is headcanon.
No it isn't. Being "powerful enough" to do something means strong enough to 99/100 times.
Not relevant to what I said?

You can chop and stab the toe of a Titan with a Country level knife, but that won't be enough to slay the Titan.
You don't need to kill it to pierce it's durability.
Actually, one of the most powerful Titans, the Icon of Sin indeed can't resurrect on its own, as the Order of the Deag priests had to do it with a sacrifice.
'I've heard the term 'rise again' being used for the dead in fiction, therefore it means the Titans are dead' is a logically invalid argument, as it can perfectly be used to refer to slumber/paralysis.
But is that the likely scenario? The crucible is stated to be uniquely powerful enough to slay titan-class demons.
He was answering a question on whether the Crucible kills Titans or immobalizes them, and he said that it immobalizes them. Nice try with the semantic argument though.
It's also a contradictory statement.
The same guy also claimed that the Doom Slayer needs to remove the Khan Maykr's orb from within her chest or she'll be invulnerable, and it turns out that the Doom Slayer can beat her up with the orb inside her chest anyway.
Reminder that rocket launchers to the brain canonicly killed the Icon of Sin.
Killed the original icon of Sin which was literally built into a wall with it's brain being exposed. It's pretty obvious this isn't "complete".
It is not headcanon to speculate about how a human's body will react to fictional energy we don't know much about? Wut?
Lol, maybe if you flow Wraith energy to the non-demonic human brain it'll cause random Involuntary muscle contractions instead of paralysis. Of course, we can't prove this because it is headcanon.
You're claiming it paralyzes them, and using the blue energy to prove so. If the blue energy paralyzes shit, then if it paralyzed the thing where all messages to the body come from the rest of the body would shut down. What about that is so hard to understand?
 
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If you want to keep this discussion going, you should make a separate smaller CRT specifically about the topic. This wasn't the main intention for this thread and the main doom supporters want to move on to other things like upgrades with calcs and etc.
 
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