Doom Additions

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Nothing very big...except:

Add a Pre-Divinity machine key.In order to group in Night Sentinel Doomguy,who grew much stronger than the OG doomguy and has gained the following abilities:

Acrobatics: The Super shotgun was modified and gains the meathook during his stay with the sentinels. There also shouldn’t really be any reason why he couldn’t swing from monkey bars either. It seems weird to just limit to the Doomslayer eternal key.

Immortality type 2/4 Negation: Gains the crucible blade during his stay,even before blessed with by the divinity machine.


0.09 Scaling: His striking strength and overall durability would scale to the Marauders (due to being a high ranking night sentinel and superior to those who fought in the civil war)

Sword Mastery: He already has it,but it should be given in the earlier keys. Since he ascended the ranks and trained with the night sentinels.

Ballista: Night Sentinels had the Ballista in their weaponry.

Heat Manip: Pretty weird he doesn’t have it and only has resistance to it. The Ballista fires argent energy,which is superior to the superheated shots of the plasma rifle.

High Stamina: For his feats against the Night Sentinel pit and rampaging in hell beforehand after the events of Doom 64. As well as surviving waves of demons that had slain other night sentinels as well.

All weapons gained in this key would flat out be 0.09 tons.

That’s it.

Edit:

A new proposition has came with new knowledge coming to light.

Proposition 2: Complete Edition. The better one.

Lump all into a Night Sentinel Key.

All prior abilities mentioned before with a few changes for compromise:


AP: The Doomslayer during this key had been freshly pooped out of the divinity machine and did not have the time to gain the strength his RP would’ve gotten him after billions of years (i.e into 7-C).

So this time we would have him scale to the hell barge GPE. Since he would pretty evenly match the titans during this stage and not completely stomp them like he does later on.

Kierian and I have proposed the following: >At least 9-A, possibly Low 7-C physically, Low 7-B with Crucible

Seeing as the crucible was necessary for the dreadnought and Icon. It seems like this fits.

 

[KieranH10]

Meat Hook could be Thread Manipulation imo (Or Chain Manipulation if we still had it), but firing the chain hook and swinging from it sounds more applicable to Thread Manipulation. I'm not sure on Acrobatics, if he hasn't shown it we cant really give it.

The rest seems fine.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Nearly forgot, Reactive Power Level or Accelerated Development for Hell due to demons progressively getting stronger with the Doomguy.

 

[KieranH10]

Isn't that over like eons?

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Ehhh....

The Artbook already stated the demons grew stronger after the events of 2016. So it definitely doesn’t take that long,it’s likely not combat applicable tho.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

These all look like fine additions.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Was it Doomguy or Doom Slayer that was stated to get stronger after every defeated foe?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was Doom Slayer I'm pretty sure.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Not OG doomguy. There’s evidence for reactive power level beforehand,with him matching Sentinels with 0.09 tons in AP as a smol baseline physically nerd and jumping the strength gap. Could be attributed to willpower or something.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, his willpower let him push past mortal limits, however vague that is.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

So the only change being done to CRT is changing the Acrobatics gained from the Meathook and changing it to thread manip. Would that be fine?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I’m fine with that.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I’m gonna leave this CRT on some staff member’s walls so we can see if this gets approved within a week of it being made lmao

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Wouldn’t Medeus count as Staff? He said seems fine?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Don’t we need more support for this? If not, then we can add the stuff right now, but I thought we needed more.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Idk.

Last,last thing I wanna add is resistance to Mind Manip via the Archvilles coming in prior keys. The lore doesn’t state the Archville had evolved much prior to their OG counterparts and since the classic marine was able to face them without getting manip’ it should count.

 

[Axxtentacle]

They’re visually the same demon, so I think that’s fine.

 

[KieranH10]

Arch-Vile stuff seems fine too.

There is actually some stuff I might as well bring up while we're here, saves making another thread later.

About Doomguy's NPI, it needs moving to his Eternal Key, the current justification is through Lost Souls afaik which have been confirmed physical beings and not actual souls. However in Eternal Doomguy manages to attack the Soul in the Gladiators Shield, and in Ancient Gods his weapons can harm spirits.

So basically NPI needs moving to the modern keys for the Slayer and his weapons.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Hmm idk,there isn’t any lore reason as why the Doomslayer can suddenly touch intangibles. It’s not mentioned in the blessing,so it’s be pretty weird for him to only have it in Eternal.

 

[KieranH10]

I suppose that makes sense, the justification still needs changing however, since it is currently incorrect.

 

[Shmooply]

Or Chain Manipulation if we still had it

Wait

WHAT.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

yeah it got yeeted lmao.

Ok the very last thing is giving the Doomguy all the resistances (besides soul manip) that the other demons have. Most of him getting harmed by environmental hazards seem like gameplay.


OG doomguy could scale to a degree.

 

[KieranH10]

If OG Doomguy getting harmed by them is gameplay that means he's just neutral. We'd have to prove he actually resists them.

 

[Fupdumpthegump]

He should also get Forcefield creation because of the shield mod and wall crawling for you know... crawling on walls.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

alright.

Just a quick question,can the Crucible’s “cauterized wounds immediately after cutting” be used as a means of limited regeneration negating? Irrc,some regeneration requires cells to reform afterwards,but crisping them would delete the cells to begin with.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Eh, that’s a bit of a stretch.

 

[KieranH10]

Yeah, that seems to push it. That'd be more of a case by case thing than Regeneration Negation if anything.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

This can be applied right?

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Just to absolutely clarify, he gets he crucible. A low 7-B weapon as it was capable of slaying titans.

So it would look like, 9-A, low 7-B with the crucible. If not it could be higher since the blade scales above his physicals.

 

[KieranH10]

Yes that's fine, the Crucible has been shown to slay Titans and even the Icon of Sin. So if the new key gets it then it should also be this strong with it.

O, really quick, about the NPI stuff, I think weapons should have it moved to their modern keys since they're later models so it makes sense.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

alright no one suggest anything else. This is a fuckton to add lmao.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Not quite sure an other key is necessary; the current keys covers him when he is playable, so missing a small handful of abilities between game timeskips is completly fine with me. But if the majority agree with adding a key then that is fine too.

But... I have some objections with some of the suggestions.

Immortality type 2/4 Negation: Gains the crucible blade during his stay,even before blessed with by the divinity machine.

There are two issues with this:

1. It is indicated that the Doom Slayer got the Crucible after the Divinity Machine​

What rose from the holy coffin on that fateful day was not the impure abomination the covenant warned us of; the hero within would come to be known only as the Great Slayer, the time walker, the warrior Khan whose fire-sword would blaze forth a path for the just and cut through the demonic horde with a vengeance that only a God King could summon. He rose unbroken by the Ritual, his eyes burning with Maykr magic. He took the Crucible in his hand, and Wraith-fire leapt forth from the blade, as only it will when held by a true Sentinel warrior king. ~History of the Sentinels - Part IX

Note that the Crucible is different from normal Argent blades (like the Sentinel spears, Marauder's axe, or that cool guitar with Argent blades). The codex states that it will only ignite in the hands of a true Sentinel warrior king, and the writers stated in one of their streams that only the Doom Slayer's Crucible can uniquely be used to take out Titans unlike Marauder axes.

2. The Crucible does not negate immortality​

No, no no no. This is a very common misconception, due to statements that Titans are immune to conventional weapons, with the Crucible being an exception... except that it is not the only exception.

It is well established that the Night Sentinel's Atlan mechs are capable of killing titans, and we are shown multiple background images of Atlan mechs stabbing Titans to death. Furthermore, the Doom Slayer killed the "Great One" Titan champion hell sent against him, and he did it without a Crucible blade (the Sentinel Crucible was stuck in the Dreadnought Titan in Taras Nabad, and the demonic Crucible is only acquired after Doom 2016), and since the Titan would be immune to conventional weapons then the statement writers made about him killing the Titan with his fists is literal.

So basically, Titans can be 'killed' with two methods:

1. Overwhelming firepower (Atlan mechs, and an angry Doom Slayer)
2. Being stabbed with a Crucible blade

But the Crucible blade does not literally kill the Titans dead; it seals a Titan as long as the blade is lodged into them, and if the blade is removed then the Titan will rise again. Which is why the Doom Slayer dislodged the hilt of the Crucible after stabbing Titans. So it would be an 'easy method' to get rid of Titans.

There was general agreement to remove Immortality Negation for the Crucible, and replace it with Paralysis Inducement, in a previous CRT, but it was not applied.

Heat Manip: Pretty weird he doesn’t have it and only has resistance to it. The Ballista fires argent energy,which is superior to the superheated shots of the plasma rifle.

It has been argued that this would be redundant, as most Plasma Manipulation and plasma weapons work via. superheated gas.

About Doomguy's NPI, it needs moving to his Eternal Key, the current justification is through Lost Souls afaik which have been confirmed physical beings and not actual souls. However in Eternal Doomguy manages to attack the Soul in the Gladiators Shield, and in Ancient Gods his weapons can harm spirits.

Agreed. But then again, the first Eternal DLC introduced an enemy called "Spirit" who cannot be physically harmed without the Microwave Beam mod, so the Gladiator shield feat might not be valid for NPI.

Hmm idk,there isn’t any lore reason as why the Doomslayer can suddenly touch intangibles. It’s not mentioned in the blessing,so it’s be pretty weird for him to only have it in Eternal.

Could be any number of reasons, and that is if we consider the Gladiator shield feat to be non-physical interaction. But does Doomguy have feats for touching intangible beings?

Wait

WHAT.

The Chain Manipulation page was deleted, and the term reroutes to the Metal Manipulation page.

There is a problem in that the Meat Hook is not a standard issue modification.

A weapon from the Slayer's past, this double-barreled shotgun displays ornate, undeciphered diligree carvings. It also includes a modification, a twin-pronged hook anchored with a retractable chain designed for under-barrel usage. Though the firearm appears to be of Earthly design, the "meathook" attachment is comprised of non-terra metals, suggesting some level of prior history offworld. Its place in the Slayer's arsenal in Hell has already been recorded, as noted in the following translation of the Ungmar Codex: "The sting of the Slayer's abominable arsenal casts fear into the lowest of our kin. It's blazing barrels of brimstone spew his vitriol and loathing upon us, and cast our brethern to the dirt. Mark the venom of his chosen apparatus of agony, the Diabolical Musket, Lucifer's Bane; it's claw of pig iron gouging the flesh of the martyr and hurrying him upon us. Curse the name of his beloved treasure. Curse the Hell Walker's device of torment. We shall cast it into the smelter and gild his entrails with the slurry." ~Super Shotgun

So it would be speculative to claim that Doomguy had the meathook before the Divinity Machine and before he got goated.
Though if it is to be added, I think we should just add "Chain Manipulation" (which will lead to the Metal Manipulation page automatically); it is certainly more accurate than 'Thread Manipulation'.

He should also get Forcefield creation because of the shield mod and wall crawling for you know... crawling on walls.

If you are talking about the Chaingun, that is a weapon made by ARC, and not a Sentinel standard issue. He doesn't literally stick to walls to my knowledge, so normal climbing would be Acrobatics rather than Surface Scaling.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The Crucible thing was brought up in the last CRT, after the one where that was accepted happened. The weapon is stated to be one of the FEW things strong enough to kill titans. The proof for paralysis is that they get up if you take the sword out, but this was addressed already. If the sword negates their resurrection, then taking the blade out would logically allow them to resurrect.

Type 4 immortality neg requires the least assumptions. If you can find proof that the Crucible paralyzes them but doesn’t negate their resurrection in the lore, please do so, because otherwise you’re just making assumptions.

Why isn’t the Gladiator feat valid? What reasoning is there against it? All we know is that there is a spirit in the shield, Doom Slayer stabs the eye where the spirit is, and the shield explodes. The method taking the least assumptions here leads to NPI. If you can prove that the soul inside the shield is physical, do so.

 

[KieranH10]

Not quite sure an other key is necessary; the current keys covers him when he is playable, so missing a small handful of abilities between game timeskips is completly fine with me. But if the majority agree with adding a key then that is fine too.

I think it represents an important enough timeframe in his story to warrant a key personally.

I'm not touching on the Crucible stuff because I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to give any further input, I'll leave this up to the others.

It has been argued that this would be redundant, as most Plasma Manipulation and plasma weapons work via. superheated gas.

I guess that makes a lot of sense, Plasma Manipulation should be used instead then

Agreed. But then again, the first Eternal DLC introduced an enemy called "Spirit" who cannot be physically harmed without the Microwave Beam mod, so the Gladiator shield feat might not be valid for NPI.

I think the Gladiator Shield is valid enough, Doomguy not being able to hit them could be Game Mechanics.

Could be any number of reasons, and that is if we consider the Gladiator shield feat to be non-physical interaction. But does Doomguy have feats for touching intangible beings?

That makes sense, afaik we only had Classic Doomguy having NPI in the first place through the Lost Souls, so he likely doesn't warrant it.

The Chain Manipulation page was deleted, and the term reroutes to the Metal Manipulation page.
I think we should just add "Chain Manipulation" (which will lead to the Metal Manipulation page automatically); it is more accurate than 'Thread Manipulation'.

Makes sense, didn't notice the redirect so yeah that's fine

If you are talking about the Chaingun, that is a weapon made by ARC, and not a Sentinel standard issue. He doesn't literally stick to walls to my knowledge, so normal climbing would be Acrobatics rather than Surface Scaling.

In this they were talking about the Eternal Slayer getting the ability I think, so yeah Eternal Slayer should still get Forcefield Creation from his Chaingun

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The Crucible thing was brought up in the last CRT, after the one where that was accepted happened. The weapon is stated to be one of the FEW things strong enough to kill titans. The proof for paralysis is that they get up if you take the sword out, but this was addressed already. If the sword negates their resurrection, then taking the blade out would logically allow them to resurrect.

Type 4 immortality neg requires the least assumptions. If you can find proof that the Crucible paralyzes them but doesn’t negate their resurrection in the lore, please do so, because otherwise you’re just making assumptions.

Why isn’t the Gladiator feat valid? What reasoning is there against it? All we know is that there is a spirit in the shield, Doom Slayer stabs the eye where the spirit is, and the shield explodes. The method taking the least assumptions here leads to NPI. If you can prove that the soul inside the shield is physical, do so.

Ok, can you give a statement that Titans can resurrect which does not talk about the Crucible blade being removed?
And do you deny that Atlan mechs, and Doom Slayer w/o a Crucible, can kill Titans through physical force? If not, then why didn't the Titans they kill resurrect?

The problem is the introduction of a "Spirit" enemy in the first DLC, which the Doom Slayer can't harm through conventional means. So unless the Doom Slayer lost his NPI during the DLC, then it seems that the soul in the shield had physical manifestation like the "lost souls" demons.

 

[KieranH10]

Also, i've stumbled on some new information, the current key being proposed supposedly fought against a Titan alone, which would put him at Low 7-C physically.

UAC REPORT FILE ZPHVM41A None could stand before the horde but the Doom Slayer. Despair spread before him like a plague, striking fear into the shadow-dwellers, driving them to deeper and darker pits. But from the depths of the abyss rose The Great One, a champion mightier than all who had come before. The Titan, of immeasurable power and ferocity. He strode upon the plain and faced the Doom Slayer, and a mighty battle was fought on the desolate plains. The Titan fought with the fury of the countless that had fallen at the Doom Slayer's hand, but there fell the Titan, and in his defeat the shadow horde were routed
Slayers Testament V

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

^ This is talking about Doom Slayer after he was bestowed great power by the Seaphim, and after he invaded hell and killed demons for eons, so not about the proposed key.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

What?

Those are separate titans.

Taras Nabad happened before the great rampage. As that had only happened after the Doomslayer was locked in hell during the unholy crusade. That mentions a completely different Titan other than the Dreadnought.

He would become 7-C after killing demons for eons due to RP. The proposed key would have him become equal to the Titan’s GPE since he didn’t really grow stronger right out fresh from the divinity machine.

Like Kierian had mentioned in elsewhere:Here is how it would look like.

At least 9-A, possibly Low 7-C physically, Low 7-B with Crucible

Which brings to a new proposal of calling this a Night Sentinel key rather than just pre-divinity.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok, can you give a statement that Titans can resurrect which does not talk about the Crucible blade being removed?
And do you deny that Atlan mechs, and Doom Slayer w/o a Crucible, can kill Titans through physical force? If not, then why didn't the Titans they kill resurrect?

Are you questioning that titans can resurrect? If I follow the logic you’re using with that, Titans just overall don’t resurrect.

Why are you saying “through physical force”? How are you assuming that mechs don’t have weapons that can keep them dead, where it’s directly stated that there’s more weapons than just the Crucible? The mechs were literally made to fight titan-class demons, and if there’s other weapons like the Crucible like the Codex directly states, they would have them. Also, titans can be killed through physical force. Nobody ever claimed differently, they just resurrect.

If we accept that titans resurrect, which we do currently, how do you know they didn’t resurrect and we just weren’t told that they did? We accept Hell as an infinite realm, you can’t factually say that they didn’t resurrect if we accept titans resurrecting.

But, here’s where everything about this falls apart. Not everything that looks like a titan is a titan, most of what we see are Hell Barges. Titans are gifted are special hell magic, and the titans that we know of resurrect if not nulled by something like The Crucible. It links back to you having to prove that the Crucible paralyzes them instead of keeping them from resurrecting. So, I’ll repeat myself, what’s your proof for that?

The problem is the introduction of a "Spirit" enemy in the first DLC, which the Doom Slayer can't harm through conventional means. So unless the Doom Slayer lost his NPI during the DLC, then it seems that the soul in the shield had physical manifestation like the "lost souls" demons.

This was already discussed. His weapons can harm Spirits, it’s just not what’s intended by the game. But your other weapons do in fact damage them, it’s just extremely minimal and absolutely not what you want to do, or what the game intends for you to do, but it’s possible. Therefore, he didn’t lose his NPI.

Either way, it was his blade that hurt the spirit in the shield. Not his guns. Completely different weapons, even if your guns couldn’t harm spirits, it wouldn’t equate to the blade itself.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

There are three named Titans:

1- The Dreadnought Titan: Sent to invade Taras Nabad, and prompted the Seraphim to amp Doomguy with the Divinity Machine, and soon after the awakened Doom Slayer stabbed it with the Sentinel Crucible. The hilt of the Sentinel Crucible was later retrieved in Doom Eternal.
2- The 'Great One/Champion' Titan: Sent by hell as their best attempt to kill the Doom Slayer after he was killing demons for eons. The Doom Slayer didn't have access to a Crucible and it is confirmed by writers that he didn't use an Atlan mech, so it would be through physical attacks.
3- The Icon of Sin: Stabbed with the Sentinel Crucible.

The one in the Slayer Testament is talking about the second Titan, which is mentioned after an entry about the Doom Slayer being blessed by the Seraphim and an entry about him killing demons for eons, so it doesn't have to do with any pre-Divinity Machine key.

---

Did someone come up with a calc that puts the RP at 7-C? Is there an RP statement for Doom Slayer before he got in the Divinity Machine?
And yes, it is stated that the Doom Slayer got blessed with great power and speed from the Divinity Machine.
The Crucible is basically a hax against Titans, so not sure why it would physically scale to them.

Not sure if it is worth anything, but Samuel Hayden used the demonic Crucible as a conductor in order to solve the human energy crisis in Earth in other colonies; so it holds enough energy to sustain human power consumption for the foreseeable future.