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Doki Doki downgrade

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Sorry if this is a stupid question but why is Monika Low 2-C in the first place.

I've never played Doki Doki so if this is obvious then forgive me. Was it ever stated that Monika was erasing/controlling a universe?

Was anything ever refer to as a universe or timeline? I've know characters on this wiki who can create and erase the "game" they;re in but it's not treated as Low 2-C because there is no proof that it's universal in size.

Sorry if this sounds stupid and the answer is obvious I've never played the game before.
 
@Poinciana Essentially its a case not dissimilar to Undertale. The game features a Save system that is canon in-game, wherein the entities in the game can entirely destroy those realites (namely, whoever possesses the title of President of the Literature Club appears to have these powers).

As for destroying the universe, the game is treated as a universe. Monika and Sayori were able to edit the game on a universal scale (to the point where Monika erased everything but herself and the player). Etc etc. Other people can probably explain it better than I can, but there is basis for 2-C.
 
Okay that's cool I haven't seen the game (Mobile/PS4 no computer) but I'll trust your word that the game is refered to and stated to be a universe in game.

But Monika treats it as a game so could she have two keys like White Face has?

That means in the game she's Low 2-C likely 2-C but in the Real World she's 11-A.

Well, the entire setting of the verse is set inside the game, saying that they are Tier 11 would require someone to assume that there is an in-universe player who is playing the game, rather than "The Player" being the real world player

That seems like a good reason to add a Real World Key.
 
That might not be a bad idea as, yes, ultimately the characters are canonically "data" within the game (and deleting their respective files is actually a thing you have to do in the game to achieve various endings). So... putting in a key of that sort could be a worthwhile feature. I'm not saying it will be useful- people will likely only recall these characters referring to their existence-erasure powers and such, but the key could work.


I'm not for or against an 11-A key, I think it could make sense in some context but it could be fought against by certain logic in game.
 
That's a really bad decision. In the fictional universe Monika is Low 2-C. Monika doesn't exist in real life.
 
That's the logic I figured would be used. Like I said, not for or against it. On one hand, technically she does canonically exist in the real world- she understands that she is a GAME in the real world and edits said game from within. The real world does exist in context to Doki Doki. On the other hand, Monika as a being has never existed outside of Doki Doki Literature Club, and therefore adding 11-A for being "data" isn't needed.

There's a basis to both sides.
 
Meta fiction I like to consider more as symbolism more then anything.

BD uses it to establish higher dimensional beings, or Undertale uses it to progress the story.

In short, nerfing metafiction simply because it is metafiction is something I dont agree with.
 
^ This
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
That's a really bad decision. In the fictional universe Monika is Low 2-C. Monika doesn't exist in real life.
Click to expand...
Well, there is the twitter profile...
 
I think I agree with the downgrade here. When comparing with Giffany, Monika is almost the same yet she (Giffany) is classified as weaker. When the player turns off the game, Monika cannot do anything while with Giffany after Soos turned off the game (even taking out the disk), Giffany was still able to operate anyway. She can override different computer functions like toys, other computers, arcade games, etc. (even coming out of "her world" within her game disk to follow Soos) and stated that she can download a real human's brain into the digital world she lives in. It's even revealed in the real-life Journal 3 that even when her disk was destroyed, Giffany survived and lives within another game.

All that and yet she's weaker than Monika? I don't buy it.
 
No Giffany is 11 tier cause we never seen much of her side of things in the perspective of her "World" she always pretty much only affecting the real world.


MOnika's stuff is inherently contained entirely in her game and from her perspective her WORLD is shattered and broken by her. in the fiction of DDLC, she warps the world. she erasres timelines she can stop YOU from saving
 
LITERALLY the only reason you people are arguing this ridiculous claims is cause Monika reference the real player and world in her game....if she was just simply wanting to have the player CHARACTER to herself her feats would undoubtedly be 2-C to all you.stubborn stubborn people.
 
101bijou said:
I think I agree with the downgrade here. When comparing with Giffany, Monika is almost the same yet she (Giffany) is classified as weaker. When the player turns off the game, Monika cannot do anything while with Giffany after Soos turned off the game (even taking out the disk), Giffany was still able to operate anyway. She can override different computer functions like toys, other computers, arcade games, etc. (even coming out of "her world" within her game disk to follow Soos) and stated that she can download a real human's brain into the digital world she lives in. It's even revealed in the real-life Journal 3 that even when her disk was destroyed, Giffany survived and lives within another game.

All that and yet she's weaker than Monika? I don't buy it.
Click to expand...
Its because the entire setting of Doki Doki Literature Club! seems to be a game, with everything outside of it being the true real world we live in, meaning that while her universe is just a game for us, it can be considered "real" from her perspective

While GIFanny is a just an Artificial Intelligence who lives inside an in-universe video game
 
Wait, why should it matter if one is from a tv-show? They're both depicted as game characters who are aware of what they are (since Giffany "deleted" her programmers after they tried to delete her).

If we're talking about their powers within their own world (since Monika is only 2C within her game), Monika can only affect her world and can be powered off if the player doesn't immediately delete her file (she mentions that she is still "awake" but can't do anything) while Giffany is shown to be able to work without the computer plugged in and when the disk is taken out as well as leave her own world and travel within other games (she even attacks the Fighter-guy in his game before leaving) like I've mentioned.

That's how I see it at least.
 
Like i said, GIFfany is an Artificial Intelligence contained within an in-universe video game within the verse of Gravity Falls

While Monika is a character in a verse whose setting takes place entirely inside the game, with everything outside of it being the real world we live in, rather than an in-universe real world inside the verse

The difference between the two lies in the fact that GIFfany is a character within a work of fiction within a fictional verse, while Monika seems to be a character that is simply aware that her universe is only a fake, 2-dimensional video game from our perspective

To sum it up: All of fiction technically is 2-D from our perspective, and Monika seems to simply be aware of this fact, downgrading her for being a game character wouldn't be any different from downgrading all of fiction to 11-A because they are simply nonexistent stories for us

While GIFfany's case is completely different from her case
 
Ultima Reality makes the most sense.

Honestly, downgrading Monika means honestly we should downgrade all fiction because they are stories.

Metafictional feats are still feats.
 
A character having awareness that they are fictional in our perspective has been seen in other cartoons and games (like Conker's Bad Fur Day), but so what? How does that make her more powerful? She's still confided to her own world (in a computer) and can only affect others through it (like the player's decision in the festival scene).

But then if we put Monika and Giffany in a hypothetical fight within Monika's world, what would stop Giffany from simply leaving the game and turning it off? Even if Monika deletes her game file (if Giffany has one anyway) Giffany was still active even when her disk was destroyed.

I mean yes, their perspectives are different I got that. But then when you put them against each other, it just seems like Giffany would have a more favourable outcome.

I don't know, maybe Monika can only be that powerful within the digital world (because of her data manipulation, that's really all she's doing with the other girls) but against another character that isn't considered a digital character or within a game (like SAO or something) she can't do much. ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»
 
I mean, Monika seems to be basically a character that is aware of how we perceive her world, and that it is all technically "fake", she is no different from your average fictional character other than the fact that she is aware that her world is a game for us

GIFfany is a game character, inside a fictional video game, inside a fictional verse, meaning that she is only aware that she is a fictional character from the perspective of characters inside a fictional verse

There is a difference here

Also the "Monika may only be that powerful inside the digital world" argument doesn't... quite works because this "digital world" is her entire verse, things like that are the very reason Verse Equalization exists, otherwise any characters whose powers are linked to the mechanics of their verse would be stomped by anyone from a foreign verse
 
whats to stop Mxyskplik whatever, th imp from superman doing that in literaly ANY of his fights with a 3d character from another verse?


Your argument doesnt work.
 
Ultima seems to be making sense. Monika being well aware her and her verse being fictional is not at all a good reason to downgrade her. Or else we might as well go and downgrade every superhero and supervillain who breaks the 4th wall in comics.

Also even if she's a video game character in verse, we can rate her based upon how powerful she is within her game, just as we do with Kirito.
 
Yes. I think Monika is best equatable to Kirito. Its a good comparison. Kirito is obviously at best 10-A in real world terms, but we wouldn't use those ratings for his profile because we're talking about him purely in context to his powers in-game. The same goes for Monika.
 
@Marco Any reason why?
 
To run through everything.

1. We should downgrade her because she is metafiction!

Metafiction, as stated above is not a good reason to downgrade someone. By this logic, we should downgrade everyone from being 11-A because technically they are abstractions made by humans and thus we are 'superior' to them.

I consider metafiction an 'analogy' to what they are at. If someone uses the analogy that you the player is higher dimensional and say a villain is also higher dimensional, then sure, it works. It is at best an analogy and this applies to all metafiction.

Also, metafictional feats are still feats, there is no distinction here.

2. We should downgrade her because she is a video game character.

Kirito and others have profiles on here and we use their abilities, power, speed etc in the game for their ratings, not their real-life ratings. That is a moot point.

3. We should downgrade her because she breaks the fourth wall.

I don't see this argument for deadpool, ouroboros or sans, whats so different here? If you try to say "well that's different.". No, it is the exact same. You are just trying to make a distinction that is not there.


I am not even a big fan of doki doki literature club, but the arguments above are ridiculous

There is literally no argument that works here that supports a downgrade.

/rant over


Honestly, I am not a big fan of Doki Doki literature club, but if you are using any of the above as an argument to downgrade her, you are being ridiculous

Edit: Btw none of these are my arguments, they are from Saikou, Aqua, Ultima, weekly etc etc etc.

Just lining them all up.

Most the people that disagree now have not addressed any of these arguments and are dwelling in what ifs.

Occams razor, that is all.

Edit 2: I take it back, in-game scaling with charas I dont know MIGHT be valid but I will let everyone else decide on that.
 
[I]Ultima Reality said:
Also the "Monika may only be that powerful inside the digital world" argument doesn't... quite works because this "digital world" is her entire verse, things like that are the very reason Verse Equalization exists, otherwise any characters whose powers are linked to the mechanics of their verse would be stomped by anyone from a foreign verse[/I]
Click to expand...
Sorry, it's just that Monika's powers of "Empathy Manipulation" and whatnot only comes from the fact that she had access to the other girl's files, which makes me think that she'd only be able to manipulate another being who has data.


I mean, Monika seems to be basically a character that is aware of how we perceive her world, and that it is all technically "fake", she is no different from your average fictional character other than the fact that she is aware that her world is a game for us

GIFfany is a game character, inside a fictional video game, inside a fictional verse, meaning that she is only aware that she is a fictional character from the perspective of characters inside a fictional verse

There is a difference here


Yeah I see the difference, but my question is so what?

Monika is still considered a game character trapped within her game while in comparison, Giffany is in a similar case (sure she's only aware that she's only a game character within the Gravity Falls universe) but what does it matter? You could still put them in a hypothetical fight against each other. Giffany would still have her powers to fight against Monika.
 
Kinkiest, from what I see, the reasonings for the downgrade is that it's never actually explicitly said that saves are different timelines at all.
 
Akreious said:
Kinkiest, from what I see, the reasonings for the downgrade is that it's never actually explicitly said that saves are different timelines at all.
Click to expand...
Which that discussion was held in another thread and thus 'debunked'

Again, dont know the game and this is likely just a different opinion.

But it was already accepted as such, most of the above comments fit into of the three categories.
 
@101bijou

The difference lies in the fact that Monika is basically your average fictional character, except that she is aware that her world is fake from our perspective, downgrading her would be like downgrading all of fiction because they are merely stories from our point of view

While GIFfany is an in-universe fictional character inside a fictional verse

Comparing them is the same thing as comparing a "real" person to a fictional character, Monika will technically always be fundamentally superior due to both her and GIFfany's "natures"
 
Marco Shark said:
yeah dude
no timelines no tier 2 dude
Click to expand...
What is your proof that they aren't timelines?

Edit: Asking everyone this btw, I am personally neutral on this point.
 
I am just saying, i am not saying they are not timelines, but i am saying that if there are no timelines being manipulated, then Monika doesnt have timeline tier 2 powers.
 
Yeah, let's downgrade Monika.

Let's also downgrade the DC Universe because they are all drawings on a piece of paper by the Writer! That works!
 
Comparing them is the same thing as comparing a "real" person to a fictional character, Monika will technically always be fundamentally superior due to both her and GIFfany's "natures"
They're still made out of data. While one's power is limited to her own world, the other can leave at will and use other electronic devices.

I'm still for the downgrade.
 
then Kirito shouldnt be allowed his powers if he fihgts someone since they can just leave the game and kill in the real world.
 
They're still made out of data. While one's power is limited to her own world, the other can leave at will and use other electronic devices.

I'm still for the downgrade.

....ok, i guess we should start downgrading all of fiction because they are just nonexistent stories, or downgrade all characters who break the fourth wall

On a serious note, comparing GIFfany hopping between different electronic devices with Monika's apparent incapability of doing so is nonsense

Like i said, Monika's entire verse is a game, while GIFfany is just hopping between electronic devices in the form of electricity while still being within her own verse (Gravity Falls)

Monika can't "leave the game" for the same reason a character can't leave their own verse and go to another
 
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