Doki Doki downgrade

[DMUA]

Okay, hear me out here.

Why do we consider metafictional games to treat save files as alternate timelines? I'm pretty sure Undertale is an exception, not the rule. They specifically mention alternate timelines, and DETERMINATION, the powersource for SAVE and LOAD, can manipulate these timelines when on a high enough level.

However, Doki Doki, and I guess Imscared, don't know much about it, has no mentions of timelines, and save files are taken as they are, save files. They are just breaking the fourth wall to directly interact with these files. So, should they really get Multi-Universal ratings?

 

[SITHISIT]

Well the problem with that is in save files pertaining to this game they're saved points that are sorta frozen in time then a new timeline/save is created that is mostly identical to the last save. Then the player can go back to that. Monika literally deleted everything in the game except for the stuff that she thought would delete her as well.

 

[DMUA]

But, in this case, it isn't frozen time, it's just data being saved so the player can continue. Just like with every other game.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah I've been meaning to ask this too, these files are just files in canon, not timelines or game mechanics = canon like Undertale.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Good lord stop these.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Saik well then can you put it to rest?

 

[DMUA]

It's a legitimate question. We have no reason to automatically assume Save n' load = Timelines in every single metafictional video game verse.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

There have already been multiple threads about this, this has explained it several times in the past already

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Could you at the very least comment on one of the 30+ threads we are being swarmed by daily on the subject instead of making yet another one?

The thread that did this upgrade in the first place dealt with most of these arguments. By their very nature, Savefiles act like timelines in every respect, being an alternate version of the game's history. The only alternative interpretation is that the game world gets completed re-made each time a save is loaded. Which requires too much interpretation.

And don't bring up UT here, which doesn't have anything relating SAVEs to timelines either.

 

[Kaltias]

For the record this is the thread were the multiple timelines thing was discussed.

 

[SomebodyData]

Reading that thread,

SAVES are stated to be timelines in the very thread linked for UT> "Timelines jumping left and right"

Which you respond is probably due to LOADing, but would still mean SAVE = timelines.

In Doki Doki, these are explicitly mentioned to be just files.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That quote was never referring to Save files being timelines, I already debunked that on the very thread you are quoting. It refers to the EFFECTS of loading, but not the saves themselves.

There is only one save file in Undertale normally, so Sans mentioning multiple timelines isn't talking about several files, just the fact that loading creates a new timeline.

 

[FTW395]

Wouldn't saves normally fall under you know, game mechanics?

 

[SomebodyData]

I responded to your debunk in my comment, the effects of loading are on the saves to begin with.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And there FTW go, completely missing the point.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@SD No? As I've said, there is only ONE Save File at a time, outside of Photoshop Flowey. Multiple timelines isn't multiple save files.

Timelines "stopping" is loading, thus going back to the past and leaving this one timeline "stopped". A timeline starting is when you load back and diverge from your previous load.

 

[SomebodyData]

I think you're confusing what I'm saying.

Like you said, multiple timelines isn't multiple save files. I'm saying the save file is a timeline based on what was stated.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not really. All it states is that loading creates more timelines, not that a save file is a timeline on its own. At least what you quoted does.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Should this be highlighted?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Dragon, we get spammed by new users quite a lot with this verse. I feel like that would only bring them in and derail the thread.

 

[SomebodyData]

LOADing = Creates other timelines

LOAD = Goes back to a SAVE point and diverges from there.

What is a SAVE in this?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I see. Okay then.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Saikou.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Loading creates a timeline just by sheer time travel logic, not by any abilities inherent to it.

It diverges because it's time travel. At this point, the idea that SAVEs are timelines is less due to a direct statement and more like trying to use what we know about them to conclude that they act like timelines. Which is exactly what happens with DDLC.

Like I said in the previous thread, if SAVEs are canon, either they're timelines or the act of loading changes the world game world to match the save in question.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ok? Never said anything otherwise?

Yes, which is the point, the SAVE is a point in the timeline. No, in DDLC we never get any statements of timelines and they are explicitly files.

Or they're game mechanics in a massive fourth wall break?

I'm willing to drop this argument if other people disagree with me, but from what I've seen, I'm not so sure that Doki Doki treats their saves as timelines.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And UT never states anything about SAVEs being timelines either. Them creating more timelines via time travel stuff doesn't make them more timelines than DDLC's.

Except that Save files are canon in DDLC and needed to finish the game correctly.

 

[SomebodyData]

No, but that's an inference we can make by the fact that LOADing, a mechanic hand and hand to SAVEs, creates new timelines via diverging from SAVEs.

Are you talking about the best ending? Last time I checked, it was never mentioned that which ending was canon, so that's quite an assumption to make, unless it was confirmed canon?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No it's not. At all in fact. All this proves is the existence of timelines in UT, but that doesn't prove that the saves themselves are timelines.

Whether or not the best ending is the canon one or not doesn't matter one bit here. The fact is, to reach it you NEED to spam the Save & Load. And that's not taking into account Monika acknowledging their existence several times and the game wiping out all of your saves twice as the natural course of the game.

 

[SomebodyData]

LOAD works off SAVEs. If you create new timelines from diverging off a SAVE file due to LOAD, then there is only one thing that the SAVE can possibly be.

Ah, so you're saying you need to spam Save & Load regardless of canonicity? Sorry, but I don't remember that outside the best ending?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

LOAD works by going back in time to the last save you made. This is basically time travel to a specific point.

Say if you save at one point and goes to murder everyone. By loading, you don't go in an alternate version of the world. You just go back in time before you murdered everyone. It's just a point in the past.

I'm saying that it doesn't matter if this ending is the "canon" one or not. And certainly, the fact that we don't know for sure which one is the canon one doesn't make the best ending and everything in it non-canon and to be ignored just because.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah I know. LOADing puts you in the last SAVE point you made. What does this make a SAVE file?

It kinda does matter if its dubious. It would make that Low 2-C into a Possibly or Likely Low 2-C.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Again, what you're using isn't any direct statement about SAVEs being timelines. You're just logic-ing your way into it.

No it doesn't. We never know if UT's genocide route is canon or not, it doesn't nullify everything that happens here. We have no reasons to disregard this. It's just like any other alternate endings in a game.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, but the fact that timelines are stated and created as a result of a mechanic directly based on SAVE is what I'm pointing at here. DDLC doesn't have.

You do know we don't use that route for scaling, say Asriel, unlike what you're suggesting. Most alternate endings are actually debated upon, I think MK or Tekken actually had a big debate over this actually.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Why are you pointing it out? It doesn't matter. SAVEs still aren't timelines based on that statement. It has nothing to do with it.

And given that Street Fighter is MHS via an alternate ending, it seems clear to me that we generally accept alternative endings as canon unless they greatly contradict stuff. Seriously, just dumping everything that happens in the best ending just because we don't know if it's the canon one doesn't work. At all.

 

[SomebodyData]

I'll concede on that.

Never said dumping everything, quite literally the opposite actually. Just add a Likely to Low 2-C was what I said.

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

Agreed with the downgrade

 

[Chartate101]

agree with downgrade. at the very least add a possibly/likely

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I disagree. DDLC has the save files as a canon aspect of the game- it is conscious about them and they take part in the game. Furthermore, it is made apparent in most games of this type that save files are universes. Think about it literally- you set apart that universe in order to go back later. If they are canon in the game, then I see no reason to consider them otherwise.

Even if you simply consider save files points of frozen time created by the player (meaning he froze the entire universe), Monika could stop him from creating save files at one point, meaning it would scale to Sayori as well. Freezing the timeline of the universe multiple times. Creating multiple versions of said universe. 2-C seems perfectly fine to me.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Why are we debating the Low 2-C key now? 2-C is already at "likely", and Low 2-C has nothing to do with save files.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Saikou and Mr.Bambu.