Does this qualify for infinite speed (Toei Goku, metal cooler and characters who scale above them)?

[Jeune_fou]

I ask that before doing CRT because I want to make sure not to pollute the CRT space with something that might be quickly debunked.

Who are concerned characters? Toei version of Goku (dbz), Metal Cooler, all toei versions of characters that scale above Goku from the return of cooler and Metal cooler. Potentially android 16, 17, 18 and Cell's 1st form (it depends if you consider their toei versions to be comparable to metal cooler) as well as all characters who are above them including antagonists of movies that came after that. Naturally it has no impact on canon characters.

I think they may have infinite speed. Our definition says "Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count."

Despite the fact it involves teleportation, I think It'll count and I'll explain why. (normally this will show the whole battle with metal cooler)



There are 3 feats that suggest that and that involve attacks and reactions during zero time (before teleportation is over) which is why I believe it should count because it's not just mere teleportation: it's reaction to what happens during zero time that makes it interesting. I'll start with the least impressive feat at 6 min 46 metal cooler charges SSJ Vegeta and teleports to attack him. In this movie when characters teleport, the movie occasionally shows them moving in some sort of strange red, dark green and black space. Goku reacts to that and teleports to stop Metal Cooler. We can clearly see they move BEFORE they arrive at the end of teleportation (during the process of traveling from point A to point B via teleporation). I know teleportation isn't supposed to count but the fact they can move and goku reacts to metal cooler trying to attack vegeta before teleportation is over suggests they have infinite reaction speed because teleportation is the ability to move instantly, so in "zero time", to another location right?

So, any character who shows he reacts to stuff after teleportation starts and before it ends (so during this "zero time") should have infinite reaction speed right?


There are two even more impressive occurrences of that. At 1 min 58, Goku (base) and metal cooler do a battle of teleportations. At 2 min 14 they both enter the "red, darl green and black zone" which is used to indicate they're in the middle of an unfinished teleportation. At 2 min 24, Metal cooler grabs Goku's ankle still before the teleportation is done and Goku's face shows fear which proves Metal Cooler can attack him in the middle of a teleportation and Goku can react to that by understanding he was caught (they're both still in the strange zone). And all that before teleportation was over (so during "zero time"). At the very least, I believe it qualifies for infinite reaction speed and possibly infinite attack/battle speed too.


Final feat of that kind that might be the most important, at 7 min 05, Metal Cooler while he is not even in the red, dark green and black zone can see and react to Goku moving in zero time (in the middle of an unfinished teleportation) as he throws Vegeta on Goku. They do not even need to rely on the zone to do this kind of stuff.


What are your thoughts? Think it's good for a CRT or think I should drop that idea?

 

[Quantu]

Return of Cooler isn't canon to the anime, so the only relevant profile that could get Infinite speed scaling for this would be Cooler. It could also be used as support for DBH characters, but they are already Immeasurable anyway.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I ask that before doing CRT because I want to make sure not to pollute the CRT space with something that might be quickly debunked.

Who are concerned characters? Toei version of Goku (dbz), Metal Cooler, all toei versions of characters that scale above Goku from the metal cooler movie and Metal cooler. Potentially android 16, 17, 18 and Cell's 1st form (it depends if you consider their toei versions to be comparable to metal cooler) as well as all characters who are above them includign antagonsits of movies that came after that. Naturally it has no impact on canon characters.

I think they may have infinite speed and our definition says "Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count."

Despite the fact it involves teleportation, I think It'll count and I'll explain why. (normally this will show the whole battle with metal cooler)



There are 3 feats that suggest that and that involve attacks and reactions during zero time (before teleportation is over) which is why I believe it should ocunt because it's not just mere teleportation, it's reaction to what happens during zero time that makes it interesting. I'll start with the least impressive feat at 6 min 46 metal cooler charges SSJ Vegeta and teleports to attack him. In this movie when the characters teleport the movie occasionally shows them moving in some sort of strange red and black space. Goku reacts to that and teleports to stop metal. We can clearly see they move BEFORE they arrive at the end of teleportation (during the process of traveling from point A to point B via teleporation). I know teleportation isn't supposed to count but the fact they can move and goku reacts to metal cooler trying to attack vegeta before teleportation is over suggests they have infinite reaction speed because teleportation is the ability to move instantly, so in "zero time", to another location right?

So, any character who shows he reacts to stuff after teleportation starts and before it ends (so during this "zero time") should have infinite reaction speed right?


There are two even more impressive occurrences of that. At 1 min 58, Goku (base) and metal cooler do a battle of teleportations. At 2 min 14 they both enter the "red and black zone" which is used to indicate they're in the middle of an unfinished teleportation. At 2 min 24, Metal cooler grabs Goku's ankle still before the teleportation isn't done and Goku's face shows fear which proves Metal Cooler can attack him in the middle of a teleportation and Goku can react to that by understanding he was caught. And all that before teleportation was over (so during "zero time"). At the very least, I believe it qualifies for infinite reaction speed and possibly infinite attack speed too.


Final feat of that kind that might be the most important, at 7 min 05, Metal Cooler while he is not even in the red and black zone can see and react to Goku moving in zero time (in the middle of an unfinished teleportation) as he throws Vegeta on Goku. They do not even need to rely only on the red and black zone to do this kind of stuff.


What are your thoughts? Think it's good for a CRT or think I should drop that idea?

Regarding this, there are mentions about the dimension that Goku passes through and talks about transcending space-time, I think it can give infinite or immeasurable speed

 

[Vietthai96]

Well i doubt this feat can be used for DBZ Anime continuity, about movies, yeah, game??, yeah since game composited stuffs

 

[Ednaxel2]

I think this is good for movies and stuff

 

[Jeune_fou]

Return of Cooler isn't canon to the anime, so the only relevant profile that could get Infinite speed scaling for this would be Cooler. It could also be used as support for DBH characters, but they are already Immeasurable anyway.

It's difficult to tell. After all, Garlic appears in a filler arc and movies seem to be interconnected (the Goku from the bojack movie (for example) "remembers" Dr Willow) because movies reference each others. Example: the janemba movies suggests other movies happened since many of the enemies who appeared in these movies are brought back to life (Bojack, Zangya, Salza (which automatically shows Cooler movies happened among the movies that are interconnected), some goons of Garlic Jr (which may suggest a connection to the anime), some goons of Turles, some goons of Slug, paragus (which automatically interconnects broly movies) some more goons of Bojack, some goons of Willow). In addition to that, the "movie" with Dr Raichi directly references Broly, Cooler, Slug and Turles.

Of course, it's be a total mess in terms of pure chronology, but the simple fact Garlic is canon to the anime already destroys the chronology since they (anime characters) refer to movie events in the filelr Garlic arc as if they remembered and lived them and yet in that movie some impossible stuff happened like Gohan knowing Piccolo (but if Gohan knows Piccolo and if Goku is alive then it can't be before Nappa and Vegeta but at the same time Piccolo is alive so it can't be after ... and therefore impossible chronologically). Yet they still remember Garlic. But anyway it can be used for Goku (Toei)'s profile since it's a composite between movie and anime (his profile mentions feats of both the anime and movies). By that logic it should also apply to other "(toei) characters" such as Cell (toei) or Manjin Buu (toei) for example (as long as they're superior to metal cooler or comparable). Anyway since movies are interconnected it should at least allow characters from later movies to scale from that.


Overall considering reactions so far, I'd say people seem pretty convinced. I'll do a CRT then. Thank you everyone for giving me your opinions about that. And no disrespect to anyone's point of view: I can 100% get what you mean about the fact movies and the anime shouldn't be connected so it's kinda of a messy chronlogy due to the Garlic Jr arc.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

But anyway it can be used for Goku (Toei)'s profile since it's a composite between movie and anime (his profile mentions feats of both the anime and movies).

It only mentions feats of movies that are considered canon to the DBZ Anime, it ins´t a composite

 

[Jeune_fou]

Sorry If I'm annoying, but toei Goku's profile mentions Janemba and that movie is ultra non canon for many reasons including the returns of at least one villain from each previous movie (except perhaps the super android 13 movie and Dr Raichi's "movie") and also due to the fact Goku and Vegeta were only dead together for a very short amount of time that is not large enough to explain how Goku has time to be involved in a tournament in the other world. NTM that movie also shows Gohan on Earth which is not logical chronologically since when Goku and Vegeta were dead Gohan was training in the Supreme Kai's world (a supreme kai's world which btw Goku teleports to as soon as he reaches the other world and stays there with Gohan for a long period). So if we somewhat consider Janemba's movie to be canon then due to the fact it shows so many villains from previous movies it automatically also validates the canonicity of said movies to the anime.

But I won't contest the way Goku Toei's profile was made and with that in mind I will only suggest it may allows to scale to movie characters. Thanks for telling that before I posted anything in the CRT section!

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Sorry If I'm annoying, but toei Goku's profile mentions Janemba and that movie is ultra non canon for many reasons including the returns of at least one villain from each previous movie (except perhaps the super android 13 movie and Dr Raichi's "movie") and also due to the fact Goku and Vegeta were only dead together for a very short amount of time that is not large enough to explain how Goku has time to be involved in a tournament in the other world. NTM that movie also shows Gohan on Earth which is not logical chronologically since when Goku and Vegeta were dead Gohan was training in the Supreme Kai's world (a supreme kai's world which btw Goku teleports to and stays there with Gohan for a long period). So if we somewhat consider Janemba's movie to be canon then due to the fact it shows so many villains from previous movies it automatically also validates the canonicity of said movies to the anime.

This has been discussed multiple times. GT just don't care and made it canon.

However, unfortunately, Meta Cooler doesn't have such luxury.

Regardless, I don't believe this feat would constitute infinite speed anyways. This is a contradiction for IT to be "actually" instant, but stupidly hilariously high in MFTL+ (though impossible to be calced).

 

[Quantu]

It's difficult to tell. After all, Garlic appears in a filler arc and movies seem to be interconnected (the Goku from the bojack movie (for example) "remembers" Dr Willow) because movies reference each others. Example: the janemba movies suggests other movies happened since many of the enemies who appeared in these movies are brought back to life (Bojack, Zangya, Salza (which automatically shows Cooler movies happened among the movies that are interconnected), some goons of Garlic Jr (which may suggest a connection to the anime), some goons of Turles, some goons of Slug, paragus (which automatically interconnects broly movies) some more goons of Bojack, some goons of Willow). In addition to that, the "movie" with Dr Raichi directly references Broly, Cooler, Slug and Turles.

Of course, it's be a total mess in terms of pure chronology, but the simple fact Garlic is canon to the anime already destroys the chronology since they (anime characters) refer to movie events in the filelr Garlic arc as if they remembered and lived them and yet in that movie some impossible stuff happened like Gohan knowing Piccolo (but if Gohan knows Piccolo and if Goku is alive then it can't be before Nappa and Vegeta but at the same time Piccolo is alive so it can't be after ... and therefore impossible chronologically). Yet they still remember Garlic. But anyway it can be used for Goku (Toei)'s profile since it's a composite between movie and anime (his profile mentions feats of both the anime and movies). By that logic it should also apply to other "(toei) characters" such as Cell (toei) or Manjin Buu (toei) for example (as long as they're superior to metal cooler or comparable). Anyway since movies are interconnected it should at least allow characters from later movies to scale from that.


Overall considering reactions so far, I'd say people seem pretty convinced. I'll do a CRT then. Thank you everyone for giving me your opinions about that. And no disrespect to anyone's point of view: I can 100% get what you mean about the fact movies and the anime shouldn't be connected so it's kinda of a messy chronlogy due to the Garlic Jr arc.

I don't mind the feat and it would be nice for Cooler and DBH as an additional feat, but currently Dead Zone, Cooler's Revenge, Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon are the only movies accepted as canon. If you make CRT for this keep that in mind, or it will delve into a debate of canonicity which will then require it's own thread etc.

 

[Jeune_fou]

I don't mind the feat and it would be nice for Cooler and DBH as an additional feat, but currently Dead Zone, Cooler's Revenge, Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon are the only movies accepted as canon. If you make CRT for this keep that in mind, or it will delve into a debate of canonicity which will then require it's own thread etc.

But then, if Fusion Reborns coutns as canon to the anime doesn't it also validates the canonicity (to the anime) of so many other movies due to all movie villains who are brought back to life in Fusion Reborn?

 

[Jeune_fou]

This has been discussed multiple times. GT just don't care and made it canon.

However, unfortunately, Meta Cooler doesn't have such luxury.

Regardless, I don't believe this feat would constitute infinite speed anyways. This is a contradiction for IT to be "actually" instant, but stupidly hilariously high in MFTL+ (though impossible to be calced).

That's def an interesting POV. Do not hesitate to bring it when I'll make the CRT

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's def an interesting POV. Do not hesitate to bring it when I'll make the CRT

With your question answered, need this closed?

 

[Jeune_fou]

With your question answered, need this closed?

Yes definitely and thank you again for your participation!