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Mundus is Argosax' equal, so he would have identical speed, and VM would scale above him (as he is superior to our Mundus).
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DMC Gen CRT
- Thread starter RedReaper616
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #42
Bump. We need one more Staff, right?
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Since we only have 1 agreement and several neutral staff, I'd say so, yes.
Tanin_iver
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Currently speed is classified into 5 types in the wiki, where Dante has specifically shown only combat and reaction speed that can counter omnipresence using instincts, while himself not being omnipresent which is a bit unique of a case.
While Void Mundus can definitely be granted omnipresence in the speed category, I don't feel the same should directly apply to Dante since he doesn't possess such a state himself or any of the properties of omnipresence.
I'd say the best way to index Dante's feat would be to mention it in High tier Sparda heritage as something like Instinctive Action at a higher level(can react to and counter omnipresent foes).
I agree with the rest of the CRT, but neutral with Type 9 immo neg since we don't have explicit evidence.
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Damn dude finally broke out of the woodworks.
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- #46
Well initially we didn’t index it as speed because the feat in the Eng TL was quite vague, but in the proper TL it’s an undeniable statement of speed. It’s the dodging of a being as fast or faster than Argosax (immeasurable speed), this same being also is “free from the flow of time,” and is spatially omnipresent. And then Dante casually dodges it in base on raw speed and instinctive reactions.
In terms of pure accuracy, I want this applied, but I don’t know HOW it would be applied. Would it simply be Immeasurable? Dante’s clearly not omnipresent, but he can move faster than an omnipresent…so how does that work? Does anyone have a person knowledgeable on this to comment?
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Let's just keep it as a dumb ass instinctive reaction feat then
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- #48
I refuse. I w@nt m@h $P€€€€D.
Georredannea15
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Omnipresent is not a speed feat, Omnipresent just a state of being. There may be cases where you can basically be Omnipresent and have infinite attack speed.
Also, I don't think being "free from the flow of time" alone would be enough for immeasurable speed. A statement like "Be faster than the timeline" for this would be much better.
Tanin_iver
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Sorry, for being in a hiatus till now, but I will not be able to give my full for a little more time.
Well it certainly is a speed feat no doubt because it scales to reactions, but due to the nature of omnipresence, we cannot outright call Dante being able to react to omnipresent foes makes Dante himself omnipresent since he doesn't have the properties of an omnipresent being. However, my suggestion of indexing it in instinctive reactions will practically make Dante capable of fighting Omnipresent foes in versus matches while his speed would still be tiered at immeasurable but reactions that can counter omnipresence.
I guess a more knowledgeable person, could explain it better and suggest the right way to tier it.
Well the actual statement is "Instantaneous movement that transcends Time and Distance".
I'd say this is as blatant as it can get for immeasurable speed criteria.
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Well yeah, Dante definitely isn’t Omnipresent, I agree, I’m more focused on the fact he’s dodging an Omnipresent Being who is bare minimum faster than baseline immeasurable based on the Argosax statement. It’s an “Immeasurable Speed” Omnipresent Being.
I think your solution could work, honestly, since it’s obviously related to his Instinctive Reactions, I’m mainly concerned with the level of quantification we’d put on Profile. I suppose it’s just stupidly high into immeasurable?
I think your solution could work, honestly, since it’s obviously related to his Instinctive Reactions, I’m mainly concerned with the level of quantification we’d put on Profile. I suppose it’s just stupidly high into immeasurable?
Georredannea15
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If that's the statement, it's promising. What do other mods think about it?
Tanin_iver
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I think I may have misunderstood your comment. Are you trying to say VM should be tiered as just Omnipresent and above baseline immeasurable, well that I agree.
Well he is above baseline Immeasurable for sure, by blitzing Argosax. And the Void Mundus feat is even more absurd. But, I am not sure how this works, like layers of immeasurable or something else entirely?
Georredannea15
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What he means is: An omnipresent being, but attack speed and reaction speed are immeasurable.
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- #55
^
Omnipresent beings don’t inherently attack at a specific super high speed, but in this case he is bare minimum Argosax+ in speed, and Argo is infin-immeasurable (outright immeasurable really) so it’s absurdly fast.
Tanin_iver
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I wanted to bring up another possible physiology addition that has been brought up by @Random-Helper323 in this post.
I will try to paraphrase it a bit, since I am not an expert at this and @Random-Helper323 would be able to explain it better and his input in the thread would be useful.
" The fact that the sword Trish put through Dante was held horizontally and put right through his spine, an action that would have prevented signals going down the spine past that point, and yet his legs still worked even with the sword still stuck there, proving that Dante's body does not function like a human's or any animal. His legs work just fine even without his spine connecting them to his brain.
Dante being able to do that is a viable ability, since it provides protection from things targeting his nervous system and even his brain itself. If he can still walk with his spinal cord no longer connecting his brain to his legs, then attacks targeting those signals likely won't work, and the same is likely true for pressure points targeting nerves as well."
What do u guys think about this?
I will try to paraphrase it a bit, since I am not an expert at this and @Random-Helper323 would be able to explain it better and his input in the thread would be useful.
" The fact that the sword Trish put through Dante was held horizontally and put right through his spine, an action that would have prevented signals going down the spine past that point, and yet his legs still worked even with the sword still stuck there, proving that Dante's body does not function like a human's or any animal. His legs work just fine even without his spine connecting them to his brain.
Dante being able to do that is a viable ability, since it provides protection from things targeting his nervous system and even his brain itself. If he can still walk with his spinal cord no longer connecting his brain to his legs, then attacks targeting those signals likely won't work, and the same is likely true for pressure points targeting nerves as well."
What do u guys think about this?
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It's just fiction.
Obviously Dante's body isn't like a human's, just see all the crazy shit he does all the time or the kind of attacks he regens through.
Personally I don't see this being worth indexing as, like I said, it's something common in fiction and most of the time is only part of the regen side of things.
Heck you can look at the lore side of things and how the body is nothing but a representation of their name hence why bodily injures are no different from changing clothes
Obviously Dante's body isn't like a human's, just see all the crazy shit he does all the time or the kind of attacks he regens through.
Personally I don't see this being worth indexing as, like I said, it's something common in fiction and most of the time is only part of the regen side of things.
Heck you can look at the lore side of things and how the body is nothing but a representation of their name hence why bodily injures are no different from changing clothes
Tanin_iver
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I think he used the above feat to justify Dante's body having immunity against nervous system manipulation and pressure points and injuries intended to make body parts stop functioning.
Could this feat be used to justify the above.
Whether indexing is required or not comes later.
I meant to ask if this would be a valid take according to the people who have knowledge regarding this.
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Such a thing is a noteworthy ability, and a blade still stuck through one's spine would prevent that spine from healing thus not allowing regeneration to fix the wound, but no specific ability matches it. It does however fit nicely as part of the stamina category, which is already where a character's ability to withstand injuries is listed, and this just adds an ability to still fully use body parts with one's spine no longer connecting those body parts to one's brain.
So basically we should probably just note that ability under the stamina section.
I agree on speed being immeasurable based on Argosax's feat. Forcing the DW and HW together could be an immeasurable lifting strength feat.
So basically we should probably just note that ability under the stamina section.
I agree on speed being immeasurable based on Argosax's feat. Forcing the DW and HW together could be an immeasurable lifting strength feat.
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Regarding the speed, didn't we used to have a rating called irrelevant that was a tier above immeasurable? Did that type of description get erased? Iirc it was something that outversal level characters got, but I know the wiki has gone thru tons of revisions.
I bring it up because I feel like mere immeasurable is just not fitting enough to describe Dante's speed.
Maybe entry level irrelevant is more appropriate if its still a thing (or a new rating entirely). Which would be hilarious because DMC would end up crazzzzyyy fast relative to the verse's AP tier.
I bring it up because I feel like mere immeasurable is just not fitting enough to describe Dante's speed.
Maybe entry level irrelevant is more appropriate if its still a thing (or a new rating entirely). Which would be hilarious because DMC would end up crazzzzyyy fast relative to the verse's AP tier.
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Yes. Irrelevant speed is kill.
Tanin_iver
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Technically, omnipresent is being everywhere and everywhen at once. So, no amount of speed is enough to evade or catch-up. Infinite and immeasurable speed don't even hold a candle to true omnipresence tho.
You can't just dodge or evade it, since it's already there everywhere around u.
No matter where u go, how fast u go, it's always surrounding you.
Which is why Dante's feat is truly absurdly incredible.
I think it is more likely to fall under Body Control. But the page itself seems to be badly outdated and riddled with grammatical errors which makes it hard to understand. I think the page could use a revamp too.
Yes, that was deleted. It was only limited to 1-A and above characters in the old TS.
As an omnipresent character you are everywhere and nowhere so distance is irrelevant and also everywhen so time becomes irrelevant so the speed formula becomes irrelevant.
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Oh, also I want to Downgrade the Chronoheart. I just remembered, but the Chronoheart is currently accepted as Time STOP because of one guide, and the "Slow" effect you see in game being a consequence of Demons resistance stated within other material.
However, we recently got our hands on 2 OTHER DMC2 Guides, and they say it is in fact a time SLOW, and given what we see in game-Time Slow-It's more likely that the "Time Stop" statement was an error. Thus, Chronoheart goes down to Time Slow.
However, we recently got our hands on 2 OTHER DMC2 Guides, and they say it is in fact a time SLOW, and given what we see in game-Time Slow-It's more likely that the "Time Stop" statement was an error. Thus, Chronoheart goes down to Time Slow.
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I mean, we all agree but you shouldn't add stuff so late into the thread.
Also what's the other stuff you didn't add to this thread?
Also what's the other stuff you didn't add to this thread?
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isn't that textbook infinite speed??
the omnipresent part has something to do with immeasurable speed tho
the omnipresent part has something to do with immeasurable speed tho
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i seen profiles like this one get infinite speed for almost the same reason
also the scan says that its instantaneous is pointing more towards infinite speed
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There is a big difference tho, death kills distance while this guy movement/teleport is above time and distance
Yeah, instantaneous movement that transcends time and distance.
You would be absolutely correct if the scan only mentioned distance and we would be having the same case as the castlevania characters
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ok then if the time is talking about linear time then it should be immeasurable speed
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Transcending time and distance is textbook immeasurable speed. Transcending distance alone is textbook infinite speed.
Where is the evidence for Argosax physically moving the two worlds? We need scans to add that all to the OP. Then we can call a staff member to assess.
Where is the evidence for Argosax physically moving the two worlds? We need scans to add that all to the OP. Then we can call a staff member to assess.
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do we know if its talking about linear time
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Even if you transcend a non-linear time flow, you're still transcending time. Plus time is generally linear by default.
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depends on context. also transcending non linear time doesn't grant you immeasurable speed?? its linear time
thats why statements like "im beyond time and space" doesnt count as immeasurable speed anymore
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What's the difference between linear time and non-linear time?
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True. I think that’s everything. We just need more discussion on the changes.
Palito266
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In this case, Argosax is using one of his abilities to teleport and hop around to disorientate Dante, this specific ability allows him to transcend or go beyond time and distance in order to teleport, and it's noted that it is instantaneous.
Normally this wouldn't warrant immeasurable speed, but seeing that Dante can keep up with the TP and can later kill Argosax, it should qualify.
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Bump.
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We got several staff comments, of which almost everyone is neutral and 1 agreed with several points of this thread.
It has been 20 days and we haven't had any discussion or arguments against most points, can we apply this now?
It has been 20 days and we haven't had any discussion or arguments against most points, can we apply this now?
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