DMC Ability Removals [Part 3] (Demon World Resistances)

[Deagonx]

Many of the resistances on the Demon Physiology page are by virtue of the negative effects the Demon World has on humans, where the fact that demons are unaffected by it is purported to be a resistance. However, not all of these are logical.

Transmutation and Deconstruction via Matter Manipulation (Atomic Level), Size Manipulation, Petrification, Hellfire Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Power Absorption: Demons are resistant to the Beasthead's assimilation process, which assimilates human mass and soul by deconstructing them into basic magical energy, and in the process they also transmute human matter and soul to stone. Hellfire is summoned in surroundings. Beastheads directly derive their power from the Demon World.[53] They are also unaffected by the Qliphoth tree roots,[36] which sucks the blood of humans and turns them into pollen.[54]

The majority of this comes from Beastheads, which were specifically stated to absorb humans and replenish demons, and was described by Chen to represent "a process for transforming humans into a basic magical energy." This doesn't work on Demons because it's an artifact that converts humans into magical energy. That doesn't mean that all low-tier demons can just broadly resist abilities that do that.

The other is the Qliphoth tree roots. There are two scans, the first is a codex entry from DMC 5 that reads "the Qliphoth is said to be the tree of life that resides in the demon world. It is the source of all life and gathers human blood - the source of demonic power." The second is a comic scan of the roots absorbing human blood until they disintegrate into dust. I'm not sure why it's being thought that this is "pollen" but it's a moot point. This has the same problem, it drinks human blood, this isn't a demon resistance.

Reality Warping: Demons are resistant to the Demon World, which can warp reality in the Human World[56][57][58]

Three sources here. The first is several pages of a book involving Tony making his way towards the portal to the Demon World and experiencing some of the negative environmental effects of this, because the demon world essentially seeps into the human world from the portal. Two problems, first is that this... isn't really reality warping? Second, demons are not resisting the warping, they are resisting the negative environmental effects. It's a category error to describe this as a resistance. Resistance is about preventing a negative effect against you, not something else.

The second source is from a dev QnA. I have no idea what is meant to be reality warping here or what about these quotes suggest demons can resist it.

The third is just someone saying "the world is already warped" which again sounds like some broad environmental thing that demons aren't resisting.

Biological Manipulation: Demons are unaffected by the Demon World, which can change humans biologically[59]

Tony sees a tree branch that looks to have been carved into a statue of a person, who he recognizes to be Jessica. It continues:

"It wasn't a statue at all, he realized. It was Jessica, ensnared by eldritch forces and reshaped into a mockery of life."
"The tree grows by feeding on human despair. A single child was all it took to enter this world."
So, again, this doesn't seem like a strong indication of a broad resistance to bio manip for demons. The tree specifically feeds on humans, and it could just be that it specifically targets humans and not demons. Or it could be that this power actually does work on demons! We don't actually know, we're extrapolating way too much from the fact that Jessica got absorbed by this tree.

Fate Manipulation: Demons are naturally resistant to the Beasthead's powers to bind their fates to itself, to never let them escape and to devour them[60]

While Beryl is struggling with the Beastheads they say to her: "It is useless, it is meaningless, we are the Almighty and we have bound your fate." To start, using the phrase "bound your fate" doesn't necessarily mean magical fate manipulation powers. The meaning is similar to "seal one's fate." It's used in non-magical contexts:

But Washington bound his fate to the destiny of his stepchildren, his soldiers, and unborn millions of Americans.
Despite the worries the French leader's tactical stroke has aroused in Germany, he is seen to have bound his fate to a united Europe.
Triple H bound his fate with WWE from an early age

Now, I do not contest that this may have been referring to a form of fate manipulation, but the other problem is that there's no indication of Demon's resisting this besides the already-addressed situation of "Beastheads are literally a mechanism for turning humans into magic, and replenishing demons." The combination of these two issues I believe is far too great to conclude "literally all demons are resistance to Fate Manipulation."


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This has already gotten pretty long so I'll handle the others later.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything is logical, I agree.

 

[chosen]

I agree With blood Absortion Removal

Neutral on the dmc2 related hax for now (been wanting to check raws to see if they change anything but didn't got around it yet)

Reality warp... From what ik i think it's about right? Might be wrong

Tho if any supporter wants to say their input (idk if they do yet) can staff votes wait abit for them too unlike the first thread? If it isn't a issue that is

 

[SunDaGamer]

I agree, the justification for these resistances is pretty flimsy. The first batch of resistances would be like giving some animal resistance to Disease Manip because a virus that only infects humans doesn't affect them. As for the Resistance to Fate Manip part, even if the Beastheads have another source that proves they have Fate Manip I don't see why demons would have resistance to it.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Three sources here. The first is several pages of a book involving Tony making his way towards the portal to the Demon World and experiencing some of the negative environmental effects of this, because the demon world essentially seeps into the human world from the portal. Two problems, first is that this... isn't really reality warping? Second, demons are not resisting the warping, they are resisting the negative environmental effects. It's a category error to describe this as a resistance. Resistance is about preventing a negative effect against you, not something else.

This one shouldn't even be on general Demon Physiology resistances even if it was a feat, as it was done by Dante, who literally has a specific physiology detailed later on that page

While Beryl is struggling with the Beastheads they say to her: "It is useless, it is meaningless, we are the Almighty and we have bound your fate." To start, using the phrase "bound your fate" doesn't necessarily mean magical fate manipulation powers. The meaning is similar to "seal one's fate." It's used in non-magical contexts:

But Washington bound his fate to the destiny of his stepchildren, his soldiers, and unborn millions of Americans.
Despite the worries the French leader's tactical stroke has aroused in Germany, he is seen to have bound his fate to a united Europe.
Triple H bound his fate with WWE from an early age

Now, I do not contest that this may have been referring to a form of fate manipulation, but the other problem is that there's no indication of Demon's resisting this besides the already-addressed situation of "Beastheads are literally a mechanism for turning humans into magic, and replenishing demons." The combination of these two issues I believe is far too great to conclude "literally all demons are resistance to Fate Manipulation."

For Beryl, her Fate being somewhat protected by the Beatheads do have more input then simple fate statements, as she performs far better than any human in the series against DW passives, and although some of her feats I do believe are done by weaponry and ability (like resisting demons presence being common for humans like Lady and even Nico), it shows some consistency with her fate being sealed

My sandbox has feats for her profile and goes into details on that matter

I'll wait for @Tony_di_bugalu for the rest

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I agree with OP completely

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[SuperSonicTL]

.While Beryl is struggling with the Beastheads they say to her: "It is useless, it is meaningless, we are the Almighty and we have bound your fate." To start, using the phrase "bound your fate" doesn't necessarily mean magical fate manipulation powers. The meaning is similar to "seal one's fate." It's used in non-magical contexts:

But Washington bound his fate to the destiny of his stepchildren, his soldiers, and unborn millions of Americans.
Despite the worries the French leader's tactical stroke has aroused in Germany, he is seen to have bound his fate to a united Europe.
Triple H bound his fate with WWE from an early age

Now, I do not contest that this may have been referring to a form of fate manipulation, but the other problem is that there's no indication of Demon's resisting this besides the already-addressed situation of "Beastheads are literally a mechanism for turning humans into magic, and replenishing demons." The combination of these two issues I believe is far too great to conclude "literally all demons are resistance to Fate Manipulation."

Beryl's reasoning for Fate manip isn't just some gibberish thrown around. Beastheads specifically is known to embody past, present and future and have time related abilities as a result of it.

On the plus side, she was fine near Beastheads even though we have a blatant statement that the Beastheads have Death hax going around it to which Beryl was absolutely fine around.

 

[Deagonx]

Beryl's reasoning for Fate manip isn't just some gibberish thrown around. Beastheads specifically is known to embody past, present and future and have time related abilities as a result of it.

This just says "symbolize" not embody, but time manip and fate manip are distinct concepts. I don't even know that the Beastheads have time manip.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

This just says "symbolize" not embody, but time manip and fate manip are distinct concepts. I don't even know that the Beastheads have time manip.

It still indicates that BH's main abilities could operate on a temporal scale soo why not Fate manip which indirectly correlates with it by your wiki?

Also by time manip, i meant that BH specifically is known for it due to his capability of teleporting you around the alternate timelines and having Fate based stuff which is only further supported by him symbolizing past, present and future.

So was Ducas and so was Chen. The Beastheads don't just make people die near them. That's never happened to any human in the novel.

Do you not understand why they both were safe in the first place?

Im aware, but it's simply a fact that even in the Demon form it never killed anything. There's a vague statement about it taking the "life" of inanimate objects in the area, but it never kills a human. That's a really weak justification for broad death hax.

Again, where is the "Human" here in this context? If you're referring to Beryl by a "Human" in this context then just know that this same "Human" was BH's personal dinner and thus she is supposed to be eaten by him and therefore, she can't die... Coz that's her fate.

Meanwhile, the official English translation doesn't say anything like this, so I can't even be sure it's accurate. It might be figurative in any case.

Oh great... Official? What's soo "official" about the mere translated version of the text that could be mistranslated for all we care?

 

[Deagonx]

It still indicates that BH's main abilities could operate on a temporal scale soo why not Fate manip which indirectly correlates with it by your wiki?

Because there's not sufficient evidence of it. It's also moot, even if we did assume this refers to Fate Manipulation, there's no evidence of Demons being resistant to it.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Because there's not sufficient evidence of it. It's also moot, even if we did assume this refers to Fate Manipulation, there's no evidence of Demons being resistant to it.

Uhh... we do? I discussed it back in part 1 but you applied it anyway coz mod powers and we simply just didn't care at all.

We would just bring it back any day and then what?

That's my point. You have this explanation in mind for Beryl as to why she didn't die, but... no human died at all. Ergo, there's no evidence of Death Manipulation. There's no evidence humans are supposed to just die near the Beastheads, the only human that was present didn't, and regardless of whether you come up with an explanation for it, the fact remains that the Beastheads lack a feat for killing humans by Death Manipulation.

Are... Are you being serious right now?

Do you not see the text there that says "every living thing"???

What do you understand by "every" can i ask?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Thread looks good

 

[LordGinSama]

Pretty sure I've mentioned how I feel about this to you and Fujiwara so I obviously agree.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Now since my point still stands, I take that as a concession.

 

[Deagonx]

Now since my point still stands, I take that as a concession.

A concession is defined as "admitting that the other person as right." I do not think you are right, rather, this thread is simply not about that subject. Do not misrepresent my position in this way.

Aside from that, I am going to be removing my comments and other earlier comments squabbling over the Death Manip translation, since they are off-topic.

 

[Robo432343]

agree

 

[marosuke]

Demons don't have hearts to care for others or protect others. I mean it's a little strange to think that they didn't use passive hax against demons. The demon world is extreme world of survival of the fittest. And they actually eat their own kinds. Basically they do friendly fire, so I disagree with fate manip. Because why not BH manipulate demons' fate for himself? Demons also have demonic power. I can only assume the reason he sticks to only humans here is because demons can resist. And other minor things seems reasonable.

 

[Deagonx]

Because why not BH manipulate demons' fate for himself?

There's not an indication that the Beastheads can do this, the phrase "bound your fate" isn't necessarily magical. Further, the beastheads are a device for converting humans into magical energy and replenishing demons. They are a tool for demons to use. They aren't a competitor.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

There's not an indication that the Beastheads can do this, the phrase "bound your fate" isn't necessarily magical. Further, the beastheads are a device for converting humans into magical energy and replenishing demons. They are a tool for demons to use. They aren't a competitor.

That still doesn't validate the fact that the Demons are stated to be generally immune to Beastheads' abilities. You need to take that into account eventually.

But here is my better suggestion, instead of just making parts just throw every problem you have with the series entirely in the next part.

Us agreeing or disagreeing have zero meaning at this point by now and it's kinda useless to separate something like that in parts.

We'll revise the arguments from scratch anyway and decide which thing needs to go or stay (depending on the context ofc).

 

[Deagonx]

That still doesn't validate the fact that the Demons are stated to be generally immune to Beastheads' abilities. You need to take that into account eventually.

Because the beastheads is for devouring humans. This isn't evidence of demons having broad resistances to anything the Beastheads do. This was already covered in the first thread. I've already explained why this reasoning is flawed.

But here is my better suggestion, instead of just making parts just throw every problem you have with the series entirely in the next part.

No. I'm not creating some massive unreadable thread just to get FRA'd. I want there to be an opportunity for each issue to be considered with sufficient depth.

 

[Robo432343]

bump

 

[marosuke]

The beastheads shows the future fate of individuals, leading them into despair, in order to convert them into demonic power.
They already showed the mechanism why demons are immune to despair. It is because they don't have the heart. It can be considered as Resistance or something.

It is fear hax based fate manip. People who can't resist fear and despair will be manipulated.

Fate Manipulation: is the ability to manipulate destiny itself to achieve a desired result.More subtle forms of the ability can simply nudge events in the users favor while more powerful variations can make it possible to ordain one's victory against their opponent.

He obtained demonic power from Ducas, which is exactly what he wanted.
It seems that the beastheads has the ability to me.

 

[Deagonx]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Catzlaflame @Mr. Bambu @DarkGrath @Firestorm808 @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @Ultima_Reality

If any of you have a moment to look at this, it'd be appreciated. The main argument is over the fourth removal, Fate Manip. The others haven't been contested.

 

[Catzlaflame]

As the OP points out, a lot of the stuff here is “Sure, it could be that, but maybe not too” and the burden for that isn’t on those in favor of removals.

Took a look at the counters, but I genuinely don’t understand the time manipulation contention. How does it correlate to fate manip at all?

I agree with the OP.

 

[Deagonx]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

Seems agreeable to me

 

[Firestorm808]

OP sounds about right.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

that should be enough votes for the thread

 

[Deagonx]

I'll apply this now.