Divine Dimensionnal Dance: Shinza Bansho Gods downgrade

[UlbertAlain]

Following

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ya know what? **** it, agree with the downgrades too

 

[OkkotsuEdgy]

I agree, Plz the Moderator accept it

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I, uh, don't quite understand what you are trying to say TISS. I'd ask to edit that later to be less rushed.

Last i checked all the concepts of reality which included dimensions are not taiji for a reason because they are inferior.

Just give the quote for that.

Unless ppl did not ******* read the initial downgrade (honestly I'm starting to doubt this even).

If this was already discussed, it should only take a copy-paste.

This ******* says this is infinite laws exist and not a single one of them is ******* taiji so its not near infinite for **** sake.

Infinite or near-infinite doesn't matter to that statement. It makes it clear that Taji alters all creation, while normie laws only affect a specific area (all underwater areas vs a single underwater area making you drown). If there is an alternate translation that changes this meaning, please give that. The number of laws means nothing in potency, especially if every single utensil has every property given to it by individual laws.

I mean unless we ignore the fact later on ootake when he really used taiji just broke that like paper then yeah...(yakou after taiji could use that to block his attacks)

Be more specific, please.

Smth has been bugging me but do we automatically assume hyperdimensional/transdimensional words to be just above 4D or it depends on the context of the verse (say if the verse has like infinite dimensions but smth above it was described at that).

It is case by case, but it would make little sense to be higher dimensional, and having geometrical dimensions while being 1-A.

I probs need to look more but I got uni and this is just a pain with all these FRAs ugh.

Don't act like it wasn't already made clear that the people against would get their chance to pipe in.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Stuff

I'll answer all of this after eating, although most of what you're saying is adressed in the post itself.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Agree

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

1-B Shinza

 

[Birgi126]

It isn't the case? Last i checked all the concepts of reality which included dimensions are not taiji for a reason because they are inferior. Unless ppl did not ******* read the initial downgrade (honestly i'm starting to doubt this even). The gods are higher dimensional is to paint they are not in the same reality as the cast because it doesn't matter how high as in the face of a taiji it gets smashed.

Sure, Taikyoku is superior to concepts of reality, but this doesn't mean all extensions of those concepts are below it. This is directly proven by the fact that gods are referred to as Higher-Dimensional several times, meaning "no matter how many dimensions there are taiji is still superior is automatically proven wrong.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。

＞u said near infinite

The number of laws matters because of what?

Higher dimensional barrier blocking their attack

I mean unless we ignore the fact later on ootake when he really used taiji just broke that like paper then yeah...(yakou after taiji could use that to block his attacks)

Yeah Ootake who has Volsung Saga on Taikyoku level, which conceptually erases whatever it touches. This doesn't relate to stats, this just means Madara's Barrier and he was on the same dimensional level and Ootake's hax could erase the barrier at the same level as him.

Being a god just sees creation like a picture/mandala so i don't see why that just debunks the fact the concepts of reality within are literally when you have taiji.

What...did you try to say here?

Oh, also I obviously agree with the downgrades.

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Taiji is the root of all things. "Physics" are mere Laws. Taiji is more than just random Laws, since if one became Taiji, all of creation would be affected by it. Because of this and the world showing higher dimensions, Taiji is 1-A.​

Quoting the post itself:

Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else."

While I'll answer the later part below, let's see what the thing about Taiji being more than "random Laws" and suchlike is. The original post had lots of discord links attached, but I'm lazy so I'll just link the entire scene (in case timestamp doesn't work, it's at 36:30). While the whole scene gives a bit more context, I'll just go with what was actually used in the post.

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku

In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.

What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.

It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.

This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku."

Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.

First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.

Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).

Of course it's a simplification. Gods have abilities such as Legion that no Briah users can access. However, the basic idea of Taiji used here is the exact as the one used for Briah. The only difference is truly the range/power.

Why does it matters? Well, Shinza Gods are currently at their tier because they are supposed to meet the "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level," criteria.

Problem here is that if it was the case, if one's emanation is conceptually above everything, it merely being downscaled wouldn't change a thing. Creation Figment still reject the entire world, even going against the laws of the actual god, albeit for a short time. Yet it wouldn't give any form of 1-A rating.

In both cases, it is a "mere rewrite" of pre-existing laws just like in the first point. Not a form of transcendance of your law, and absolutely not a 1-A one.

well you can check it on amantes ,someone who achieved taiji are beyond dimensional in this case,shinza bhanso being unable to hold their existence and all ,being transcended being ( in twillight beach scenario) ,the entire creation are just mercurius opera


there's also many scans in K3 who indicates it ,seeing the entire creation as a picture and your below point who talk about cho jigen is not something that should downscaled them ,it's depend on the verse also there's many supportive scans on this ,yes cho jigen usually has nothing to do with the 1-A upgrade,but it's still can be supporting feats

Throne being Chō-Jigen, which apparently refers to "Beyond-Dimensional"​

If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.

https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/

Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).

https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional

Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.

Cho Jigen or anything similar to that is not something that would be main focus on this thread,because it's likely used to tell us that the throne gods is something that naturally lower existence can't perceive with ,and actually this thing just has small part of masada being 1-A

Evidences linking to 1-B / Higher Dimensionality​

Tbh most if not all the evidences against 1-A can be summed in two word: Higher dimensions. They are a big part of why Shinza is at the tier it is, and hopefully, it is a term loved by the verse.

Gods higher dimensionnal nature​

One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.

なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."

喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.

そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.

高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.

I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made (can see it because someone already said this before).

The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.

Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.

There's nothing wrong with it ,incase if you wanna use it for downscaling gods into higher dimensional being ,higher dimensional thing or chojigen thing can be used to refering someone with the massively/conceptually highr existence ,there's many 1-A or non 1-A character who used analogy like that because the 1-A one has many supportive scan

Soujirou's Distortion​

And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:

基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.

感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.

あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"

If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)

So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.

And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now

as i said above,it's has nothing to do with gods become dimensional being ,it's just analogy that we usually use for someone with higher existence beyond us ,ofc someone with taikyokyu would be consider as higher dimensional being but this is just author analogy to tell us that tenma akuro is something beyond soujiro existence a.k.a higher being ,but take a note that this is not something that make taiji user downscaled to 1-A

Madara's dimensionnal barriers​

To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara

And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.

Morei's flames/Law instance

節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--

ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.

変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.

「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"

「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."

「どけいッ！」
"Out of my way!!"

大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.

宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.

以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--

されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

「――──」
"---"

驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.

「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."


Sukuna + Ootake instance


両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.


収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.

攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.

血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.

宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--

遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).

人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.

巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.

小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--

「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."

躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.

雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.

随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.


And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).

かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).

So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.

well this is actually an strong point but considering someone who used the dimensional dislocation is "the yakou madara" itself who literally can heightening his own existence and someone who can interact with object that outiside the multiverse such as singularity or throne ,can be debatable





also not to mention that taikyoku still encompasses the creation even it's expanding infinitely

disagree for now ,but i can change my mind

 

[Regidian]

well you can check it on amantes ,someone who achieved taiji are beyond dimensional in this case,shinza bhanso being unable to hold their existence and all ,being transcended being ( in twillight beach scenario) ,the entire creation are just mercurius opera


there's also many scans in K3 who indicates it ,seeing the entire creation as a picture and your below point who talk about cho jigen is not something that should downscaled them ,it's depend on the verse also there's many supportive scans on this ,yes cho jigen usually has nothing to do with the 1-A upgrade,but it's still can be supporting feats

Cho Jigen or anything similar to that is not something that would be main focus on this thread,because it's likely used to tell us that the throne gods is something that naturally lower existence can't perceive with ,and actually this thing just has small part of masada being 1-A

There's nothing wrong with it ,incase if you wanna use it for downscaling gods into higher dimensional being ,higher dimensional thing or chojigen thing can be used to refering someone with the massively/conceptually highr existence ,there's many 1-A or non 1-A character who used analogy like that because the 1-A one has many supportive scan

as i said above,it's has nothing to do with gods become dimensional being ,it's just analogy that we usually use for someone with higher existence beyond us ,ofc someone with taikyokyu would be consider as higher dimensional being but this is just author analogy to tell us that tenma akuro is something beyond soujiro existence a.k.a higher being ,but take a note that this is not something that make taiji user downscaled to 1-A

well this is actually an strong point but considering someone who used the dimensional dislocation is "the yakou madara" itself who literally can heightening his own existence and someone who can interact with object that outiside the multiverse such as singularity or throne ,can be debatable





also not to mention that taikyoku still encompasses the creation even it's expanding infinitely

disagree for now ,but i can change my mind

Can you show scan for what you tell pls, would be better for be able to know what you talk about

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

It's about time

 

[Otonashi]

Introduction​

Shinza exist.

I decided to revise it.

This is the first CRT of the series of revisions to come.

Shinza Gods are 1-A.

I think they shouldn't.

Here's why.

Note: Besides the ones we already had, all of the translations you'll see here are provided by either @Qliphoth_Bacikal in the official translation thread or in private and by @TISSG7Redgrave in this same thread. Seriously, it was a huge number of scenes overall, translators are way too undervalued. Big thanks to them.

1-A current reasons​

There are basically two main arguements for Taikyoku to be 1-A to begin with:

Taiji is the root of all things. "Physics" are mere Laws. Taiji is more than just random Laws, since if one became Taiji, all of creation would be affected by it. Because of this and the world showing higher dimensions, Taiji is 1-A.​

Quoting the post itself:

Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else."

While I'll answer the later part below, let's see what the thing about Taiji being more than "random Laws" and suchlike is. The original post had lots of discord links attached, but I'm lazy so I'll just link the entire scene (in case timestamp doesn't work, it's at 36:30). While the whole scene gives a bit more context, I'll just go with what was actually used in the post.

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku

In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.

What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.

It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.

This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku."

Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.

First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.

Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).

Of course it's a simplification. Gods have abilities such as Legion that no Briah users can access. However, the basic idea of Taiji used here is the exact as the one used for Briah. The only difference is truly the range/power.

Why does it matters? Well, Shinza Gods are currently at their tier because they are supposed to meet the "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level," criteria.

Problem here is that if it was the case, if one's emanation is conceptually above everything, it merely being downscaled wouldn't change a thing. Creation Figment still reject the entire world, even going against the laws of the actual god, albeit for a short time. Yet it wouldn't give any form of 1-A rating.

In both cases, it is a "mere rewrite" of pre-existing laws just like in the first point. Not a form of transcendance of your law, and absolutely not a 1-A one.

Throne being Chō-Jigen, which apparently refers to "Beyond-Dimensional"​

If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.

https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/

Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).

https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional

Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.

Evidences linking to 1-B / Higher Dimensionality​

Tbh most if not all the evidences against 1-A can be summed in two word: Higher dimensions. They are a big part of why Shinza is at the tier it is, and hopefully, it is a term loved by the verse.

Gods higher dimensionnal nature​

One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.

なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."

喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.

そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.

高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.

I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made (can see it because someone already said this before).

The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.

Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.

Soujirou's Distortion​

And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:

基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.

感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.

あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"

If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)

So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.

And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.

Madara's dimensionnal barriers​

To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara

And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.

Morei's flames/Law instance

節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--

ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.

変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.

「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"

「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."

「どけいッ！」
"Out of my way!!"

大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.

宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.

以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--

されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

「――──」
"---"

驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.

「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."


Sukuna + Ootake instance


両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.


収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.

攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.

血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.

宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--

遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).

人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.

巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.

小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--

「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."

躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.

雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.

随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.


And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).

かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).

So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.

Miscellaneous stuff​

Now there's others things supporting this, but small enough to all be in the same category.

-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).

「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."

そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.

複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.

圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.

曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.

いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.

なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--


-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too), even being called "another temporal plane".

I'm mentionning this because the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).

-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot) being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.

Conclusion​

Overall, I think that Shinza Gods should be downgraded to something around 1-B (either thanks to Yakou's feats or the Singularity) because of the following points:

-The idea of "Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up." is law manipulation on the level on the setting, not a form of transcendance, and especially not an 1-A one.This is without considering the points below.

-The Throne being Chō Jigen (超次元) somehow meaning 1-A is wrong. It just means transdimensional, which apply to anything above the third dimension.

-Higher dimensionnal nature for the Gods

-Higher dimensionnal attack being able to hurt them

-Higher dimensionnal barrier blocking their attacks

-Godhood being linked to the comprehension of higher geometric space

-Minor evidences Singularity being called a temporal plane in Dies Irae or basically just being another higher dimension in ParaLost.

Basically, we put Shinza Gods, the Singularity and the Throne as 1-A because of being supposedly conceptually above all higher dimensions no matter how much, while in fact they are on a higher dimensionnal level themselves, and were both shown and stated to be countered or hurt by attacks of this nature.

Now let's see how it'll goes. May it not be another 7 pages war.

Introduction​

Shinza exist.

I decided to revise it.

This is the first CRT of the series of revisions to come.

Shinza Gods are 1-A.

I think they shouldn't.

Here's why.

Note: Besides the ones we already had, all of the translations you'll see here are provided by either @Qliphoth_Bacikal in the official translation thread or in private and by @TISSG7Redgrave in this same thread. Seriously, it was a huge number of scenes overall, translators are way too undervalued. Big thanks to them.

1-A current reasons​

There are basically two main arguements for Taikyoku to be 1-A to begin with:

Taiji is the root of all things. "Physics" are mere Laws. Taiji is more than just random Laws, since if one became Taiji, all of creation would be affected by it. Because of this and the world showing higher dimensions, Taiji is 1-A.​

Quoting the post itself:

Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else."

While I'll answer the later part below, let's see what the thing about Taiji being more than "random Laws" and suchlike is. The original post had lots of discord links attached, but I'm lazy so I'll just link the entire scene (in case timestamp doesn't work, it's at 36:30). While the whole scene gives a bit more context, I'll just go with what was actually used in the post.

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku

In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.

What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.

It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.

This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku."

Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.

First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.

Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).

Of course it's a simplification. Gods have abilities such as Legion that no Briah users can access. However, the basic idea of Taiji used here is the exact as the one used for Briah. The only difference is truly the range/power.

Why does it matters? Well, Shinza Gods are currently at their tier because they are supposed to meet the "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level," criteria.

Problem here is that if it was the case, if one's emanation is conceptually above everything, it merely being downscaled wouldn't change a thing. Creation Figment still reject the entire world, even going against the laws of the actual god, albeit for a short time. Yet it wouldn't give any form of 1-A rating.

In both cases, it is a "mere rewrite" of pre-existing laws just like in the first point. Not a form of transcendance of your law, and absolutely not a 1-A one.

Throne being Chō-Jigen, which apparently refers to "Beyond-Dimensional"​

If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.

https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/

Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).

https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional

Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.

Evidences linking to 1-B / Higher Dimensionality​

Tbh most if not all the evidences against 1-A can be summed in two word: Higher dimensions. They are a big part of why Shinza is at the tier it is, and hopefully, it is a term loved by the verse.

Gods higher dimensionnal nature​

One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.

なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."

喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.

そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.

高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.

I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made (can see it because someone already said this before).

The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.

Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.

Soujirou's Distortion​

And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:

基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.

感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.

あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"

If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)

So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.

And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.

Madara's dimensionnal barriers​

To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara

And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.

Morei's flames/Law instance

節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--

ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.

変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.

「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"

「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."

「どけいッ！」
"Out of my way!!"

大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.

宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.

以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--

されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

「――──」
"---"

驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.

「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."


Sukuna + Ootake instance


両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.


収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.

攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.

血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.

宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--

遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).

人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.

巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.

小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--

「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."

躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.

雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.

随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.


And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).

かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).

So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.

Miscellaneous stuff​

Now there's others things supporting this, but small enough to all be in the same category.

-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).

「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."

そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.

複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.

圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.

曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.

いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.

なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--


-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too), even being called "another temporal plane".

I'm mentionning this because the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).

-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot) being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.

Conclusion​

Overall, I think that Shinza Gods should be downgraded to something around 1-B (either thanks to Yakou's feats or the Singularity) because of the following points:

-The idea of "Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up." is law manipulation on the level on the setting, not a form of transcendance, and especially not an 1-A one.This is without considering the points below.

-The Throne being Chō Jigen (超次元) somehow meaning 1-A is wrong. It just means transdimensional, which apply to anything above the third dimension.

-Higher dimensionnal nature for the Gods

-Higher dimensionnal attack being able to hurt them

-Higher dimensionnal barrier blocking their attacks

-Godhood being linked to the comprehension of higher geometric space

-Minor evidences Singularity being called a temporal plane in Dies Irae or basically just being another higher dimension in ParaLost.

Basically, we put Shinza Gods, the Singularity and the Throne as 1-A because of being supposedly conceptually above all higher dimensions no matter how much, while in fact they are on a higher dimensionnal level themselves, and were both shown and stated to be countered or hurt by attacks of this nature.

Now let's see how it'll goes. May it not be another 7 pages war.

I agree

Introduction​

Shinza exist.

I decided to revise it.

This is the first CRT of the series of revisions to come.

Shinza Gods are 1-A.

I think they shouldn't.

Here's why.

Note: Besides the ones we already had, all of the translations you'll see here are provided by either @Qliphoth_Bacikal in the official translation thread or in private and by @TISSG7Redgrave in this same thread. Seriously, it was a huge number of scenes overall, translators are way too undervalued. Big thanks to them.

1-A current reasons​

There are basically two main arguements for Taikyoku to be 1-A to begin with:

Taiji is the root of all things. "Physics" are mere Laws. Taiji is more than just random Laws, since if one became Taiji, all of creation would be affected by it. Because of this and the world showing higher dimensions, Taiji is 1-A.​

Quoting the post itself:

Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else."

While I'll answer the later part below, let's see what the thing about Taiji being more than "random Laws" and suchlike is. The original post had lots of discord links attached, but I'm lazy so I'll just link the entire scene (in case timestamp doesn't work, it's at 36:30). While the whole scene gives a bit more context, I'll just go with what was actually used in the post.

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku

In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.

What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.

It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.

This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku."

Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.

First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.

Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).

Of course it's a simplification. Gods have abilities such as Legion that no Briah users can access. However, the basic idea of Taiji used here is the exact as the one used for Briah. The only difference is truly the range/power.

Why does it matters? Well, Shinza Gods are currently at their tier because they are supposed to meet the "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level," criteria.

Problem here is that if it was the case, if one's emanation is conceptually above everything, it merely being downscaled wouldn't change a thing. Creation Figment still reject the entire world, even going against the laws of the actual god, albeit for a short time. Yet it wouldn't give any form of 1-A rating.

In both cases, it is a "mere rewrite" of pre-existing laws just like in the first point. Not a form of transcendance of your law, and absolutely not a 1-A one.

Throne being Chō-Jigen, which apparently refers to "Beyond-Dimensional"​

If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.

https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/

Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).

https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional

Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.

Evidences linking to 1-B / Higher Dimensionality​

Tbh most if not all the evidences against 1-A can be summed in two word: Higher dimensions. They are a big part of why Shinza is at the tier it is, and hopefully, it is a term loved by the verse.

Gods higher dimensionnal nature​

One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.

なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."

喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.

そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.

高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.

I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made (can see it because someone already said this before).

The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.

Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.

Soujirou's Distortion​

And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:

基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.

感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.

あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"

If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)

So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.

And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.

Madara's dimensionnal barriers​

To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara

And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.

Morei's flames/Law instance

節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--

ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.

変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.

「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"

「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."

「どけいッ！」
"Out of my way!!"

大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.

宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.

以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--

されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

「――──」
"---"

驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.

「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."


Sukuna + Ootake instance


両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.


収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.

攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.

血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.

宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--

遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).

人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.

巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.

小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--

「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."

躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.

雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.

随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.


And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).

かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).

So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.

Miscellaneous stuff​

Now there's others things supporting this, but small enough to all be in the same category.

-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).

「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."

そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.

複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.

圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.

曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.

いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.

なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--


-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too), even being called "another temporal plane".

I'm mentionning this because the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).

-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot) being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.

Conclusion​

Overall, I think that Shinza Gods should be downgraded to something around 1-B (either thanks to Yakou's feats or the Singularity) because of the following points:

-The idea of "Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up." is law manipulation on the level on the setting, not a form of transcendance, and especially not an 1-A one.This is without considering the points below.

-The Throne being Chō Jigen (超次元) somehow meaning 1-A is wrong. It just means transdimensional, which apply to anything above the third dimension.

-Higher dimensionnal nature for the Gods

-Higher dimensionnal attack being able to hurt them

-Higher dimensionnal barrier blocking their attacks

-Godhood being linked to the comprehension of higher geometric space

-Minor evidences Singularity being called a temporal plane in Dies Irae or basically just being another higher dimension in ParaLost.

Basically, we put Shinza Gods, the Singularity and the Throne as 1-A because of being supposedly conceptually above all higher dimensions no matter how much, while in fact they are on a higher dimensionnal level themselves, and were both shown and stated to be countered or hurt by attacks of this nature.

Now let's see how it'll goes. May it not be another 7 pages war.

I agree

 

[Ningenron]

Holy shit with The FRA's train

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Can you show scan for what you tell pls, would be better for be able to know what you talk about

Sadly all of my shinza scan are bfred to nothing lol

But I'll try to re-search it just wait

And yeah, if u play k3 and amantes you should be know this automaticlly

 

[Birgi126]

well you can check it on amantes ,someone who achieved taiji are beyond dimensional in this case,shinza bhanso being unable to hold their existence and all ,being transcended being ( in twillight beach scenario) ,the entire creation are just mercurius opera

Nothing you said here indicates beyond-dimensional

there's also many scans in K3 who indicates it ,seeing the entire creation as a picture and your below point who talk about cho jigen is not something that should downscaled them ,it's depend on the verse also there's many supportive scans on this ,yes cho jigen usually has nothing to do with the 1-A upgrade,but it's still can be supporting feats

It can't be a supporting feat/statement if meaning itself doesn't support what is being argued for. Sure, by itself countering that point doesn't make 1-A Shinza Banshou disappear, but there are other things for this in the thread.

,higher dimensional thing or chojigen thing can be used to refering someone with the massively/conceptually highr existence ,there's many 1-A or non 1-A character who used analogy like that because the 1-A one has many supportive scan

It isn't an analogy, the thread counters that the higher dimensional part is literal:

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

as i said above,it's has nothing to do with gods become dimensional being ,it's just analogy that we usually use for someone with higher existence beyond us ,ofc someone with taikyokyu would be consider as higher dimensional being but this is just author analogy to tell us that tenma akuro is something beyond soujiro existence a.k.a higher being ,but take a note that this is not something that make taiji user downscaled to 1-A

It doesn't say "a higher being", it says higher-dimensional for a reason. And considering how direct this statement is doubt you can argue it as an analogy.

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Nothing you said here indicates beyond-dimensional

It's tho, with the help of the other scan

It can't be a supporting feat/statement if meaning itself doesn't support what is being argued for. Sure, by itself countering that point doesn't make 1-A Shinza Banshou disappear, but there are other things for this in the thread.

Yes you do know that arguing that point won't affecting 1-A shinza

It isn't an analogy, the thread counters that the higher dimensional part is literal:

Cmon we Already discuss it many time

It doesn't say "a higher being", it says higher-dimensional for a reason. And considering how direct this statement is doubt you can argue it as an analogy.

And what reason?

The strong point in this thread was not soujiro distortion but yakou Madara dimensional barrier, but it was still debatable

 

[QuasiYuri]

It isn't the case? Last i checked all the concepts of reality which included dimensions are not taiji for a reason because they are inferior. Unless ppl did not ******* read the initial downgrade (honestly i'm starting to doubt this even). The gods are higher dimensional is to paint they are not in the same reality as the cast because it doesn't matter how high as in the face of a taiji it gets smashed.

It really is just because of the Craving/Colour part and the fact that it rewrites others laws.
Nothing indicate that it was a metaphor or anything remotely similar. And the fact that it uses the same terminology of "phase" as actual higher-dimensional stuff just further proves that they are in fact, higher-dimensional.
I don't even see why people try to argue that Shinza stating a thing means everything and its opposite because it's Shinza.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。＞u said near infinite
This ******* says this is infinite laws exist and not a single one of them is ******* taiji so its not near infinite for **** sake

.It also doesn't matter because Yakou's explanation is that these laws aren't Taiji because there's no Craving fueling them. They just "exist".I mean unless we ignore the fact later on ootake when he really used taiji just broke that like paper then yeah...(yakou after taiji could use that to block his attacks)

I mean unless we ignore the fact later on ootake when he really used taiji just broke that like paper then yeah...(yakou after taiji could use that to block his attacks)

I think what's being ignored are the instance where Yakou countered Morei's law and the one when he countered both Sukuna and Ootake's laws.
If Ootake later broke one, it just means he's strong.

Smth has been bugging me but do we automatically assume hyperdimensional/transdimensional words to be just above 4D or it depends on the context of the verse (say if the verse has like infinite dimensions but smth above it was described at that).

That's not what I said. Just that it apply for anything beyond 4D, and isn't a proof of 1-A.

 

[Birgi126]

It's tho, with the help of the other scan

Then you should send it

Yes you do know that arguing that point won't affecting 1-A shinza

Countering one of the supporting points for 1-A Shinza will affect 1-A Shinza. No matter how minor, countering a minor point still weakens the argument for the 1-A side even if it isn't enough by itself.

Cmon we Already discuss it many time

...When?

And what reason?

It says higher-dimensional because it is literally higher-dimensional, which debunks Taikyoku being beyond all extensions of dimensions. If it was an analogy, it could just say "a higher being".

The strong point in this thread was not soujiro distortion but yakou Madara dimensional barrier, but it was still debatable

Unless I am missing something until there is a proper counter, all the points are strong points.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's tho, with the help of the other scan

I don't even think you could really argue 2-A with only Dies Irae. In fact I nearly hesitated about using more DI scans for the downgrade.

Yes you do know that arguing that point won't affecting 1-A shinza

To answer the thing that lead to this answer: the point is that this supporting evidence never was a good one.

Cmon we Already discuss it many time

And I'm putting something we discussed into questions. Because some of the arguments used to solve this were just plain wrong, which is something I explained in the post too.

The strong point in this thread was not soujiro distortion but yakou Madara dimensional barrier, but it was still debatable

Madara barriers aren't especially the "strong point", they just are the ones with more instances.
The fact that higher dimensional Gods is consistent af, while even the current proof of 1-A aren't 1-A at all.

Birgi already answered it himself, but I still prefer adressing everything.

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

It says higher-dimensional because it is literally higher-dimensional, which debunks Taikyoku being beyond all extensions of dimensions. If it was an analogy, it could just say "a higher being".

Just wait when i regained my shinza scan, but you can say that, higher dimensional thing statement are not strong point for affecting 1-A shinza , oh and don't bring another point because yuri has bring out them, the last thing to do is argue it

Unless I am missing something until there is a proper counter, all the points are strong points.

Not for the soujiro thing tho

 

[Megaraptor149]

Infinitely expanding it's meaning not really they are really infinite. For me it's just finite. And it's not really requirement as High 1-B and it's only just 1-B

Anyway count me as Agree

 

[AKUTO123]

I disagree

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just wait when i regained my shinza scan, but you can say that, higher dimensional thing statement are not strong point for affecting 1-A shinza , oh and don't bring another point because yuri has bring out them, the last thing to do is argue it

Not for the soujiro thing tho

Higher dimensional stuff is like, the whole thing against 1-A.

1-A Shinza is based on the idea that Taiji/Singularity/Throne/Gods/etc... are above any form of higher dimensions possible, therefore being 1-A. I especially quoted the reason why it is the tier it is.

And you didn't explain how Soujiro thing was a "weaker point".

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

I don't even think you could really argue 2-A with only Dies Irae. In fact I nearly hesitated about using more DI scans for the downgrade.

With only dies irae? As I remember there's only , it's confirmed in both novel and Stated by masada himself wdym

Well yeah i agree with you for dies irae scan is something that should not be bring here

And I'm putting something we discussed into questions. Because some of the arguments used to solve this were just plain wrong, which is something I explained in the post too.

I'm refer to birgi on another platform

Madara barriers aren't necessary the "strong point", they just are the ones with more instances.
The fact that higher dimensional Gods is consistent af, while even the current proof of 1-A aren't 1-A at all.

Madara barrier is something that has very strong point for contradicting 1-A gods

The laws explanation and soujiro distortion could be argued with less effort than that

 

[TheLastStylebender]

Agree with dayet

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Infinitely expanding it's meaning not really they are really infinite. For me it's just finite. And it's not really requirement as High 1-B and it's only just 1-B

Wdym, infinitely expanding is refer to shinza bhanso not an pseudo number for the multiverse

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Yet the point is that the laws of reality are not taiji simple as that. Its not just a select few as u said is "near infinite" because its outright infinite...

I think what's being ignored are the instance where Yakou countered Morei's law and the one when he countered both Sukuna and Ootake's laws.

If Ootake later broke one, it just means he's strong.

Idk much but did she use her taiji is the better question? Even then we know yakou has taiji just colorless (mukei). Ootake got a bit serious with his taiji and just blasted yakou to hajun where he got hijacked as a sensory.

We already said how any dimensions don't mean anything to taiji unless u are ignoring all of how taiji works as a principle then yeah....its plain wrong ffs. It can have any dimensions but it means nothing. And we know higher D is to express the tenmas are not in the same plane as the cast so its not them bound by dimensions just expressed that the EE are hilariously weaker with Yakou having only some form which is not enough since he god blinded anyway (but got a 3rd eye so a plus for him)

 

[QuasiYuri]

With only dies irae? As I remember there's only , it's confirmed in both novel and Stated by masada himself wdym

With only Dies Irae you would likely get 2-B, since 2-A and anything else comes from WoG and K3.

The only thing remotely possible would be the whole Cho Jigen/Hyperdimensional, which wouldn't help in that case.

Well yeah i agree with you for dies irae scan is something that should not be bring here

I didn't said that they shouldn't, just found it needless.

Madara barrier is something that has very strong point for contradicting 1-A gods

The laws explanation and soujiro distortion could be argued with less effort than that

Guess it depends of the person.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yet the point is that the laws of reality are not taiji simple as that. Its not just a select few as u said is "near infinite" because its outright infinite...

I don't... this doesn't matter. The number of laws is meaningless tier-wise.

We already said how any dimensions don't mean anything to taiji unless u are ignoring all of how taiji works as a principle then yeah....its plain wrong ffs. It can have any dimensions but it means nothing. And we know higher D is to express the tenmas are not in the same plane as the cast so its not them bound by dimensions just expressed that the EE are hilariously weaker with Yakou having only some form which is not enough since he god blinded anyway (but got a 3rd eye so a plus for him)

Then copypaste quotes here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yet the point is that the laws of reality are not taiji simple as that. Its not just a select few as u said is "near infinite" because its outright infinite.

Oh wait I noticed that a part of my answer got deleted.
The sentence does says "near" (近く), and anyway I just copy/pasted this one from the previous upgrade thread, since I wouldn't be accused of changing the scans.

And I just explained how they weren't Taiji. It's because they just "are" and aren't fueled by Craving, nor have law rewriting stuff.

If Ootake later broke one, it just means he's strong.

Idk much but did she use her taiji is the better question? Even then we know yakou has taiji just colorless (mukei). Ootake got a bit serious with his taiji and just blasted yakou to hajun where he got hijacked as a sensory.

It's flat out said that they all used it in the scenes. Are you just refuting because you dislike the idea of non 1-A Shinza?

We already said how any dimensions don't mean anything to taiji unless u are ignoring all of how taiji works as a principle then yeah....its plain wrong ffs. It can have any dimensions but it means nothing. And we know higher D is to express the tenmas are not in the same plane as the cast so its not them bound by dimensions just expressed that the EE are hilariously weaker with Yakou having only some form which is not enough since he god blinded anyway (but got a 3rd eye so a plus for him)

You are litteraly just staying on a position without acknowledging the scenes here.
It isn't a metaphor, the previous thread tried to justify it as such and even invented stuff like "Phase difference means Taiji and non-Taiji difference", which is wrong.
You can't say that I'm ignoring something when I'm just using the novel's facts.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Know nothing about the verse, but if that "higher dimensional" stuff was just used as a mere analogy rather than an explanation to any cosmological related of the verse, then using it as a counter against 1-A is really, a moot point. Analogy is supposed to be a comparison or correspondence, no one can restrict ones to use random analogy as long as there is a similarity.

Anyway, if it works more than just an analogy than you can ignore this reply, I just found it to be too nitpicky and brought me nonstalgia to Low 2-C TTGL cuz Big Bang, despite said point was an asinine, if that's not a false equivalence.

 

[Birgi126]

Ootake got a bit serious with his taiji and just blasted yakou to hajun where he got hijacked as a sensory.

Ootake's taikyoku is all about destroying anything regardless of what, so this is due to hax, not raw stats.

We already said how any dimensions don't mean anything to taiji unless u are ignoring all of how taiji works as a principle then yeah

You can say that it doesn't mean anything, doesn't change the fact that it does. Gods being higher-D means they are bound by dimensions and aren't above all extensions of higher dimensions which is primary argument for 1-A.

And we know higher D is to express the tenmas are not in the same plane as the cast so its not them bound by dimensions just expressed that the EE are hilariously weake

It is meant to show how much stronger Tenma's are, but while doing that narration explains why they are so superior. You can't just ignore the explanation and go "Oh it is just meant to show the difference the explanation is wrong for no reason at all".

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

With only Dies Irae you would likely get 2-B, since 2-A and anything else comes from WoG and K3.

K3 actually explain it

Guess it depends of the person.

Yes

 

[Chasekilleen]

Uhmm why are people doing CRT's if they have not read the full playthrough?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Know nothing about the verse, but if that "higher dimensional" stuff was just used as a mere analogy rather than an explanation to any cosmological related of the verse, then using it as a counter against 1-A is really, a moot point. Analogy is supposed to be a comparison or correspondence, no one can restrict ones to use random analogy as long as there is a similarity.

Anyway, if it works more than just an analogy than you can ignore this reply, I just found it to be too nitpicky and brought me nonstalgia to Low 2-C TTGL cuz Big Bang, despite said point was an asinine, if that's not a false equivalence.

It's not just an analogy yeah, but the upgrade thread succeeded in making others believe it was one.
Which is why I made this thread with proof and explanations that it isn't.

 

[QuasiYuri]

K3 actually explain it

It's what I just said yeah.

 

[Birgi126]

Know nothing about the verse, but if that "higher dimensional" stuff was just used as a mere analogy rather than an explanation to any cosmological related of the verse, then using it as a counter against 1-A is really, a moot point

The post quite literally explains why it is not an analogy:

I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made (can see it because someone already said this before).

The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

I know you said to ignore if it is not an analogy but had to point it out

 

[TokiNoOuja]

I agree with Dayat

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with Dayat

You mean RamadhanDayYet?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Added a agree/disagree/neutral count on the OP btw. Sure not gonna remember things.