Discussion of " FR : Respect Thread "

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

FR respect thread : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_2nd_Existential_Seed/Franklin_Richards_Respect_Thread

I would simply like more support and feedback for this respect thread. Normally I'd wait until the pverall marvel revision thread long into the future.... But as I said, it's LONG into the future. So I actually wanted to get some clarification and even some assistance. It my even turn into a revision thread in the future depending on how many support it.

If no one wants to read the thing ( It's really big ) , let me know and I'll summarize the new points I made in the respect thread supporting extremely high ends. I hope this doesn't get closed...

 

[Antvasima]

I do not have the time and energy to deal with your threads and blog posts any more. You can ask Matthew Schroeder to take a look if you wish. He might fine some of the references useful.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

... I see... Ant , the reason I was forbidden from talking is because TBH. My reasons back then were.... Horrible. They lacked reason,andfor all intents and purposes were worthless. Soi undersfsndwhy you banned me. But., it seems I found much greater evidence for it recently [ I wish I had it back then.. Perhaps it wouldn't have elevated to this point ] ... And as I found greater evidence, I needed to post this. I spent the later of two months gathering the new io I have now. My whole point, as I have stated many mes, was to be useful to both you and Matthew when the time came for revisions. So to be stated as " Unreliable " ... Ruins the entire point of what I made, and everything I had done wasted. So... Is that what you re saying ?

Its kinda hard to misinterpret what new info I have now when it's spelled out as clearly as it can get. Like I said, I am sorry if my " theories " and " misinterpretations " were bad enough to ban the topic... But i generally feel what i now have is much better than before.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Well, in the old thread that I just read, you seemed to be arguing for a High 1-A Franklin, which is completely unreasonable.

However, Matthew might have the time to check through you blog, if you ask him.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I have never banned you from the wiki.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

.... Oh. That is what you thought . Man, if you told me that earlier.... I wasn't going for that. High 1-B to 1-A depending on interpretation of a few scans, especially some from Strange Tales, which is what I want to discuss the most with Matthew.

Uhmm... I meant banned from discussing the topic.

 

[Antvasima]

That also seems very unreasonable. Regardless, I will ask Matthew if he is interested in checking this up, but then you will have to stop making these threads.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

For what reasons ? I didn't even say what the feats were yet. High 1-B mainly because of inconsistency, 1-A... Because of the feats i found concerning the " Fallen Stars " Family. And no, I am not saying FR is above Beyonder, LT, and all the people he is obviously weaker than.

 

[Antvasima]

I have not had the time and energy to check through your blog, but going by the times that I have been forced to deal with your antics in the past, virtually everything that you post has been based on extreme misunderstandings and hyperbole.

Franklin is officially supposed to be on roughly the same level as the Celestials, that's it, and without using powerscaling, he has technically never demonstrated any explicit feats beyond creating universes.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

And I already stated my newer reasons are much more solid than before . The only one I need to bring in is Strange Tales. And no you weren't forced, I never hanged you by the throat and forced you to type up a reply. Just like you have been doing, you could've ignored my posts.

I know this. And we already explained why that's a lowball ( creating pocket universes ) . Unless you want to believe Kubik >> Franklin, that's a lowball . It's a representation of his imagination , not his power cap. This was even explained in Ultmates, that his imagination allowed him to recreate everything . He wouldn't even scale to the Celestials if he can at best be Low 2-C. The reason why his tier can vary, because he scales to the Celestials, who scale to the IG and uber-level items of Marvel. That's even why he is where he is now.

 

[Antvasima]

I am likely the most informed person about Marvel in this wiki, which makes your threads my responsibility to deal with, or your hyperbole and misunderstandings will spiral out of control.

However, it is extremely tiresome to constantly debunk your misrepresented scans one by one, especially as you are hardly the first person to come here with walls of text containing massive exaggerations of Marvel characters.

And my point is that we will be generous enough as it is towards Franklin if we give him and the Celestials 2-A statistics, which we likely will.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Matthew more than likely is better... But that is besides the point. Do you want me to tell you the feats now , if you are that confident in your abilities ? Back then .. It is more misinterpretation of higher-dimensions than anything else honestly. Lack of knowledge and being an amateur in metaphysical concepts .

Then let this thread be the end of it. Debunk it here, my greatest evidence, and I have nothing left. I told you before it is my ace.

I appreciate that... But I always looks for higher ends anyways .

 

[Antvasima]

I have read several thousand Marvel comics, whereas Matthew does specific research. My knowledge is wider, whereas his is more specified.

However, I am also far busier than Matthew, having taken care of the wiki 9 hours a day 7 days of the week for 3 years now, and at this point I am thoroughly exasperated by Marvel revision threads featuring walls of text and lots of scans that either completely misunderstand the contents of the stories involved or the larger context of the total pattern of the franchise.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, okay, you can mention a few instances with scans here, but again, I am overworked enough as it is, so stick to a few relevant ones.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/burkejobmt.htm

Here is the Marvunapp. I kinda have to use this as evidence for now, because this is such an old comic none of the comic providers have it. It takes place in Strange Tales IV, before Man-Thing had the Nexus supposedly.

Here is the summary : The main instance is that using the Nexus, it destroyed " every plane of reality, until nothing but a Sea of Nothingness remained " . Considering that in Strange Tales, the famous scans you guys constantly use is the levels / planes of existence that Multi-Abstracts existed on. Considering Eternity's Realm was mentioned in Strange Tales , is defined as a " realm " by both Dormammu and Strange, it seems to be a realm outside the reality. So... If nothing but a Sea of Nothingness is remained of everything after it was destroyed by the Nexis , that realm , as well as the planes of reality , was destroyed by the Nexus . In my respect thread, there is a scan that Eternity's Realm" transcends all levels of reality and dream " .

In a nutshell the "dreamers" keep this realm and all the planes of reality alive by viewing it as nothing more han a dream " The dream of existence " . Man-Thing & The Fallen Stars have this ability, so does Creator of Existence [ NOT TOAA. Someone who refers to him/herself as that ] . Man-Thing was unaffected by the Nexus and its damage, yet was essentially oneshotted by Franklin in Daydreamers. Without getting into the really deep ends, this is the main point.

 

[Antvasima]

I am afraid that we cannot use a website summary as a source. We need the original comic scans to check that they were not misrepresented, and traditionally the nexus has strictly been treated as a portal to all alternate universes, so this would be seen as hyperbole or inconsistency anyway.

Marvel is also insanely inconsistent, with little coherence between different authors and storylines. We definitely cannot scale everybody who have ever overpowered the Man-Thing to being able to destroy all of existence.

The Defenders scan of Dormammu, Umar, and Eternity being beyond all reality and dream, is considered to be illogical hyperbole, considering that Eternity itself is a creature constructed of space and time, whereas Dormammu and Umar are generally treated as higher-dimensional entities who can merge universes together, and that's it.

Even in the same storyline, the Hulk managed to harm Dormammu, and he is definitely not remotely 1-A.

We also have a discussion rule against bringing up this sentence for scaling purposes.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I understand using it for Umar, Dormmamu, or Eternity... But them scaling to that realm makes no senses anyways . Really ... Hmm .. That is where the misunderstanding is. That his realm, not Eternity. He was never even remotely implied to be the embodiment of that realm. That's why I believe the rule should be more... Specific.

Of course Marvel is inconsistent, not trying to be smart. That is why we were arguing 2-A or High 1-B Marvel Abstracts for almost a month and a half.

The reason is his resistance to RW is consistent. He shrugged this off, as well as the Ultimate Nullifier beforehand . Overpowering Man-Thing with Reality Warping has honestly never happened, because the powers he had as one of the Fallen plus the Nexus gives him a grand hax , but not physically. That's why everyone under their mother can defeat him, but not outright kill him with Reality Warping. That's why Franklin's case can be made here. Obviously Hulk isn't 1-A... Dormammu isn't , because Eternity doesn't scale to that realm, just like regular Dormammu doesn't scale to his Dark Dimension, or the Celestials scale to their higher-dimension .

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the central issue here is that we cannot scale between different authors and storylines to too high a degree.

If the nexus has usually been treated as simply being a portal to different universes, and it may or may not have once have been mentioned that destroying it would give the same fate to every plane of reality, we should preferably go with the former, and definitely not scale the Man-Thing to the entirety of the nexus, or Franklin to that in turn.

As I keep mentioning, it is perfectly possible to scale Cyclops and Frankenstein's monster to Multi-Eternity, or the Black Panther to the Living Tribunal, along with everybody else who are scaled to them.

For reliable upgrades to take place, we either need a strong degree of consistency in the powerscaling, or explicit feats or definitions in the same story, and after that we also have to attempt to consider if this seems too inconsistent with other, likely more prominent, portrayals.

 

[Antvasima]

Of course, Marvel may be the hardest franchise to scale properly in the entire wiki going by my experience, and as such several profiles regrettably still seem very unreliable from my perspective.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Marvel is the hardest to scale honestly. I truly agree . However, some form of scaling is more reliable . At least i can say that Man-Thing's resistance can only be supported by the fct he is one of the fallen . This , in my opinion , is definitely better than : Celestials being on a higher-plane of reality compared to the Beyonder's , IG being stated to be as powerful as Beyonder before the retcon occurred , and many more I found. There is another instance of LB Galactus accessing the Outside something Eternity could never reach via his own words , and breached The Outside with a handwave . Eternity has been in his realm before , as well as the Realm that was or Never Have Been, both seemingly Outerversal planes . It gets REALLY complicated Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

Jim Starlin had Reed Richards compare the Infinity Gauntlet with the Beyonder in passing, during the original IG miniseried, yes.

However, given that the author only portrayed the item as being universal in scope during the story in question, whereas the Beyonder was always clearly stated to be beyond multiversal scale, we either have to interpret this as Richards attempting to make the urgency of the situation clear to the "superheroes", as the exact scale does not really matter if an entity eclipses them in power to this degree, or the author making a mistake, or both in combination.

The Celestials were on a higher plane than cosmic cubes, and this was an obscure story that was later quickly ignored by various writers who simply portrayed them as universal entities or as slightly superior to Watchers (during a confrontation between the two races).

Loki has also been present in the void left behind after the Marvel multiverse was gone, as has Dawn Granger. Neither of them are remotely 1-A either, and being present in a possibly dimensionless realm, does not automatically mean that a character chares its properties, as it is a rather common plot convenience.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I meant LB Galactus tore a hole in the Outside. Anyways... I am trying to find the comic so it can be evaluated . The Nexus has a few other high ends of similar levels [ Havok comes into mind here ... It was portrayed as destroying all of existence if detonated ] ... But it will take some digging to find specifics.

 

[Antvasima]

The Al Ewing Ultimates storyline was filled with too many inconsistencies to be a reliable source to scale from. Chaos & Order killed the Living Tribunal, the Tribunal was a sub-routine of Multi-Eternity, the word "omniverse" was used inaccurately, the Black Panther with the Tiger God defeated Chaos & Order, the First Firmament was simply a large universe, yet could overpower Multi-Eternity, Multi-Eternity was simply a collection of universes without higher dimensions involved, etcetera...

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Havok happened before Ultimates.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The main problem is... the Nexus have no DC feats ( So it " technically" isn't inconsistent ) . The Goblin Queen threatened all of existence, and it was stated on panel she had the ability to end all existence, and only Havok and Scotty had the ability to oppose her. The Crossroads of Infinity connect to all the dimensions and realities in marvel, and one of the benefactors of Marvel being High 1-B . Guess what ? It was referred to as a Nexus of All Realities . Inconsistency isn't the issue... Scaling is.

 

[Antvasima]

The Goblin Queen of all characters ending all of existence, based on Mutant X, the possibly worst written X-Men comicbook of all time, must be considered as an extreme hyperbole outlier.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree when you say it is poorly written... But it's canon ( Me & Matthew both agreed on this ) . She was heavily amped by the Phoenix Force & Post-Retcon Beyonder, in addition to a few 4th Hosts. It isn't her standard power set by any means.

 

[Antvasima]

The Phoenix Force and Post-Retcon Beyonder having that kind of power completely contradicts their other portrayals. I do not think that we can count it as reliable. It would completely mess up all of our power-scaling.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I honestly feel much the same thing about Antvasima about Seed's blogs. They are FAR to large, filled with gigantic paragraphs with little pause, and far too little actual evidence in the form of scans for me to consider them reliable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will excuse myself from reading all the text, and instead analyse and break down the image links one by one.

But I can't right now, but I will today.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he supplies a few scans. I just thought that you might find some of them useful whenever you decide to improve on the statistics for the Celestials, Franklin, and other mid-level cosmic entities.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

... Talk about a worthless power fantasy huh ? Worthless , worthless , worthless..

Anyways Matt... You're free to do it at your own leisure. Don't be surprised if you're disappointed with faulty, wanked , and exaggerated claims.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Let me remind you that this respect thread is... Long. If you need any help, don't be afraid to ask. I can't say I will be of any help though....

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It really isn't long. I just have to ignore the text and analyze the pages by themselves.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

A question before this is likely closed ... Does infinitely-layered creation automatically = High 1-B ? I am asking because quite a few verses unnamed and unknown on this site have this concept.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Technically yes but it must be checked on a case by case basis. I think we used Infinitely layered as one of the evidential scans for High 1-B PR Beyonder but I'm not sure.

 

[Antvasima]

The Beyonder is High 1-B because it was stated outright that the Beyond Realm has infinite directions, not just 3, and that the regular Marvel multiverse is infinite-dimensional.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

the "regular" Marvel Multiverse is High 1-B ... That in and of itself causes issues with the scaling. Do you understand how many "Multiversal" threats there are in Marvel ? So if that is the case... How can we tell which Multiversal threats are 2-A or High 1-B ?

 

[Kaltias]

Looking at their feats?