DIO has his Phantom Blood abilities (Criticism)

[SolidEye234]

Also, Straitzo does this without taking any blood in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-5gUh5MkRQ

You can assume Dio's regen is weaker all you want, but there is no implication that Straizo is any weaker/stronger than him. Straitzo even explicitly mentions that Dio played/developed his powers more. Doesn't look like he's using Hamon either.

Blood enhances the regen; it doesn't cause it.

I've never claimed that Straizo required blood to regnerate. Please don't strawman my position.

Like I said, hamon is stored in the bloodstream.

 

[SolidEye234]

Specifically, why is Dio scaled to Straizo to begin with?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Nor did I claim that you said that. The last statement was me clarifying a fact in general, and was not directed at you. No need to throw around fallacies when they don't apply.

Read the quote furthur; it says "by the breathing". It's something that one must actively do through the breathing tecniques, which when Straitzo does, he dies.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Specifically, why is Dio scaled to Straizo to begin with?

Since he is a Vampire, who Straizo is as well, and shouldn't be any weaker in that regard. Especially considering, as I've said, that Straizo claimed Dio developed his abilities more than him.

 

[SolidEye234]

Nor did I claim that you said that. The last statement was me clarifying a fact in general, and was not directed at you. No need to throw around fallacies when they don't apply.
Read the quote furthur; it says "by the breathing". It's something that one must actively do through the breathing tecniques, which when Straitzo does, he dies.

What about Dire?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

What about Dire?

No idea of the relevance of that panel. Please explain further?

 

[SolidEye234]

Specifically, why is Dio scaled to Straizo to begin with?

Since he is a Vampire, who Straizo is as well, and shouldn't be any weaker in that regard. Especially considering, as I've said, that Straizo claimed Dio developed his abilities more than him.

Isn't that a Hasty Generalization? Using that logic, therefore Nukesaku has similar Regenerationn.

 

[SolidEye234]

What about Dire?

No idea of the relevance of that panel. Please explain furthur?

You've stated, "Read the quote furthur; it says 'by the breathing'. "

Dire is decapitated. How can he use hamon?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

S

"Hasty Generalization" when both acheived their powers the exact same way, with a statement of superiority in abilities?

What?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

How is he blowing, if he doesn't have lungs?

It's PIS.

 

[SolidEye234]

"Hasty Generalization" when both acheived their powers the exact same way, with a statement of superiority in abilities?

What?

So therefore all Pillar men should be like Kars because they've activated their powers from the Stone Mask? No.

 

[SolidEye234]

How is he blowing, if he doesn't have lungs?

It's PIS.

Therefore it's shrugged off?

A bit of confirmation bias.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So therefore all Pillar men should be like Kars because they've activated their powers from the Stone Mask? No.

You're associating the Pillar Men, who have radically different powers achieved through different methods than vampires, with Dio/Straitzo?

Nice association fallacy.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

How is he blowing, if he doesn't have lungs?

It's PIS.

Therefore it's shrugged off?

Yes. That's kind of what we do with PIS, otherwise we wouldn't call Hamon a "breathing tecnique" like it's used by every Hamon user in the series.

Nor would we have "being unable to breathe" as a weakness on every Hamon user's page.

 

[SolidEye234]

You're associating the Pillar Men, who have radically different powers achieved through different methods than vampires, with Dio/Straitzo?

Both of these groups utilized the Stone Mask. The original Pillar men race never did have "modes"

 

[ProfessorLord]

Dio scales to Straizo because:

1. There is nothing stating or implying that the stone mask produces different vampires of different strengths. The strength is entirely dependant on how the vampire chooses to use it.

2. Both Dio and Strazio had similar physical physique (human Dio being comparable to pre-hamon Jonathan, which was still 8-C) so if it multiplies ones strength, they should be comparable.

If we're going by plot too, Araki brought back Straizo to illustrate and represent Joseph being far too clever for vampires like Straizo and Dio, thus producing the need for a stronger, smarter villain.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Pillar Men were an entirely different people to begin with before they put the masks on. Hence why Dio and Straitz aren't Pillar Men.

 

[SolidEye234]

Pillar Men were an entirely different people to begin with before they put the masks on. Hence why Dio and Straitz aren't Pillar Men.

I've never claimed Dio and Straitz were Pillar Men.

It was an analogy.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I've never claimed Dio and Straitz were Pillar Men.
It was an analogy.

Then you shouldn't use it as any sort of support for your argument for scaling between Dio and Straitz, as Pillar Men are a different case entirely.

9. Association fallacy
This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.

 

[SolidEye234]

Then you shouldn't use it as any sort of support for your argument for scaling between Dio and Straitz, as Pillar Men are a different case entirely.

Straizo is a hamon user, Dio is not. Stating that Dio should be scaled with Straizo because they're vampires should not be the case. It's a hasty generalization.

Should I refer to Nukesaku?

 

[ProfessorLord]

(For the uninformed, DIO = Stardust Crusaders, Dio/Dio Brando = Phantom Blood)

I will like to restate this again for clarity: It was never stated that DIO had somehow lost access to the various abilities he had demonstrated within Phantom Blood. He did not say it, the narrator did not say this, nobody had said this in either Phantom Blood or Stardust Crusaders.

This is fact, there is no solid piece of evidence from the source that states this.

In order for us to accept that DIO has lost some of his abilities that he had demonstrated earlier (I say some for a reason, I will get to that later), there must be an implication of some sort that lends credibility to this assumption, otherwise it is nothing but conjecture.

By default, the assumption is that every character in any verse should retain abilities they had learned in a previous series or in this case, a previous part... unless stated otherwise of course. There is no reason we need to prove that a character has there abilities again, we simply do not operate like that. Goku not using the Destructo-Disc in Dragon Ball Super is not enough reason to suggest that he is now unable to use it. Such a line of logic is not valid because it does not take into account the potential reasons why Goku had chose not to use it, such as now having more powerful moves or simply not finding the right situation or opportunity to use such a move.

We can apply the same to DIO. Him not using Vaporizing Freeze or SRSE is not enough reason to suggest that he had suddenly lost the ability to do so. By default, if there was nothing suggesting that he may have lost his abilities or control, then he should be able to do so. Him not doing so does not require me to prove why he did not do so, only Araki can really answer that. I can tell you that even if it may have been convinent and beneficial for him to do so it still isn't enough proof to warrant that he is now unable to do so. I can suggest that it borders on the line of Character Induced Stupidity if it really was the case, but we just don't know what DIO was thinking.

This is just how we do things around here. I have no obligation to prove that DIO still has his abilities IF there is nothing suggesting that he had lost him. We do not do it to other verses such as Dragon Ball or Naruto where similar occurences of characters never using an ability they had used in the past has happened, we are not doing it to JoJo's Bizzarre Adventure. If you wish to refute this specific point, then you'll have to make a much larger revision that includes every verse where this situation has happened in the past and essentially change some of the fundemental logical reasoning we use here. (Which I am all for, so long as it is accurate and correct.)

I have not shifted the burden of proof unfairly, it simply is not my job to prove that he has lost an ability that he has used in the past. It is a baseline assumption that he hasn't.

But notice how I've been saying "if" a couple of times now?

I'll step right in and address this for the sake of being accurate and fair: there IS reason for DIO not being able to use his various vampire abilities.

He does not have the same body as before. It is the body of Jonathan Joestar, which he HAS said has been vaguely resisting him somehow. It is unknown how, though.

Anyway, since it has said that Jonathan Joestar has resisted him, we do know that should immediately mean he does not have full control of his own body. Since he himself has explicitly stated that full control of his body is required for his Vaporizing Freeze, then at least that ability should not be able to be used by DIO.

This does not mean every other ability should be eliminated from DIO's movepool, however. He has been able to use SRSE as only a head, and therefore DIO should be able to use it regardless of whether or not his body is resisting him, because he's used it without a body therefore making it redundant whether or not he can control his body. His Regenerationn shouldn't be as great, but only on a certain half of his body as said by his conversation with Hol Horse. One half regenerates just fine and he claims it as "his own", but the other half is slower and sluggish.

That covers what I believe up until Awakened DIO, which I shall now get into.

After drinking Joseph's blood, he himself has stated that the blood was making his body stronger than ever. The opposition has claimed that this is not proof enough that he can use his other abilities as it does not prove any sort of control.

Which is true, but that still falls under the assumption that Jonathan is still resisting him up until that point... which is not true based on what DIO had said to Vanilla Ice:

"It is likely that if I drink the blood of one more person, the body of Jonathan Joestar's which has resisted me, will fall completely under my control and this wound will heal."

Since then, DIO has drank the blood of not just an ordinary person which he implies would still regain control of his body, but the blood of a Joseph Joestar,which should be more compatible with the body of another Joestar.

So if he has complete control of his body right now, as stated by himself, why can't he use any of his abilities again?

If your next argument is still "well he didn't use them" then you're better off scrolling up and restarting, because I already explained him not using them is in no way proof of him not being able to use them, especially since by this point, there is absolutely nothing suggesting that he is unable to use them.

I'm moving on to your next arguments.

> He notably wanted to drain the blood of a Joestar and sync himself with Jonathan's body to further improve his time stop ability. Nonetheless, once he drained the blood of Joseph Joestar, DIO still had the potential to enhance his time stopping capabilities.

Yes, because it has been established stopping time is not based off control of ones body, but the physical dexterity and endurance one has. Just regular DIO was able to increase his timestop, but stopped short at 5 seconds because part of his body was weaker, not because of control, because logically if what you're saying is correct, he shouldn't have any at this point in time.

Jotaro and Diego are both able to cap at a 5 second timestop, meanwhile it stating that DIO can continue to improve beyond that is more proof of the strength of his body, not the amount of control he has over it. Either way, pretty irrelevant since I've proven he should have total control and amazing strength after Joseph's blood.

>Essentially, Jonathan's undead body still has Hamon in his bloodstream since DIO possesses a Hermit Purple-like Stand (Jonathan's Stand) and how he drained the blood of a Hamon User to further assimilate with Jonathan's body - DIO cannot conduct neither Fire nor Ice.

Your proof and evidence is spot on but your conclusion is iffy. The statement from Araki does not state that hamon = hermit purple, only that those who use hamon would have the personification of it as well, hermit purple.

We still need proof that Hermit Purple is permanently conducting hamon, because that does not seem to be the case.He has explicitly wrapped it around DIO and has had it do no damage whatsoever, kind of strange if it really conducting hamon. Furthermore he has actually yelled to DIO that he was going to combine both Hermit Purple and hamon which debunks WOG and your argument, since it's redundant to combine Hermit Purple and hamon if the latter is already made up of hamon.

MY CONCLUSION: The opposition has done a fantastic job of refuting the reasoning and logic behind my arguments fairly (I did create a lot of logical fallacies I guess), while providing insufficient evidence to refute my core argument.

TLDR: DIO does not have total control over his body and has not demonstrated abilities. Therefore he should only have SRSE (which does not require a body at all). However, Awakened DIO has been stated to have regained his total control and strength over his body. I do not need to prove why a character has not lost their abilities when it is no longer implied.

Also: "if we take the previous logic as true" as the hypothetical conclusion would only follow if the premise is validated.

Correct, because by default the previous logic should be incorrect, however, assuming that it is correct, the hypothetical conclusion would still serve to invalidate it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Then you shouldn't use it as any sort of support for your argument for scaling between Dio and Straitz, as Pillar Men are a different case entirely.

Straizo is a hamon user, Dio is not. Stating that Dio should be scaled with Straizo because they're vampires should not be the case. It's a simple generalization.
Should I refer to Nukesaku?

Staitzo no longer used hamon as a vampire, and when he did, it killed him. Otherwise he was just as human as Dio was when they became vampires.

Don't really need to, as it's not related to this.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I had to do it to em.

 

[SolidEye234]

9. Association fallacy

This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.
Both Pillar men "modes" and vampires are activated by the stone mask. I did not call a pillar men a vampire.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

9. Association fallacy

T

B
Yet Pillar Men are something decidedly different from humans. Therefore, we can say it affects humans the same, but can produce different results in Pillar Men.

And again, I'll just point out Straizo claiming Dio had better use of his powers than him, which you seemed to have ignored entirely.

 

[SolidEye234]

Staitzo no longer used hamon as a vampire, and when he did, it killed him. Otherwise he was just as human as Dio was when they became vampires.
Don't really need to, as it's not related to this.

Why do you keep on ignoring that hamon is in the bloodstream?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Why do you keep on ignoring that hamon is in the bloodstream?

Because it's clearly activated by the breathing technique, which when Straitzo does, he dies.

"The energy created in the bloodstream by the breathing"

Do I need to keep on repeating myself, or no? Hamon needs to be activated through a special breathing technique. When this is interrupted, (See Zepelli vs. Dio), they can't preform Hamon. It's also something that needs to be activated. You seem to be blissfully ignoring facts about Hamon in order to make your argument be perceived as more grounded.

Although I'll say this again:

And again, I'll just point out Straizo claiming Dio had better use of his powers than him, which you seemed to have ignored entirely.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Buddy, I think you have a bigger argument to refute. We can talk about the rest later, let's just focus on your main argument: that DIO does not have his PB abilities.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Since a majority of the argument for DIO not having his abilities was:

1. He did not use them (Which I've already debunked, that's not strong enough reasoning and is not how we operate on this site.)

2. He did not have total control of his own body (Which DIO himself has EXPLICITLY debunked)

Does anyone have any issues with what I've said? Is it fair to say that my counter-arguments were valid?

 

[SolidEye234]

Buddy, I think you have a bigger argument to refute. We can talk about the rest later, let's just focus on your main argument: that DIO does not have his PB abilities.

In my original argument I've stated that this "represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third optio, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false."

Yes, no where in the manga claimed that DIO lost his vampiric abilities. But no where in the manga claimed that DIO kept his vampiric abilities either. This is where the third option lies.

This doesn't mean you have the rights to claim DIO has all his abilities because no one can prove you wrong. This remains unfalsifiable.

I've never claimed that the SRS eyes should absolutely be elimated and I'm well informed DIO (before Joseph) is sluggish with his Regenerationn.

Awakened

Please don't use the anime adaptation as evidence of any sorts.

"Maybe one more person's blood will heal this wound and make this body mine."

It's never implied that Jonathan was resisting him in the original manga. Indeed, "the blood of a Joseph Joestar,which should be more compatible with the body of another Joestar."

"So if he has complete control of his body right now, as stated by himself, why can't he use any of his abilities again?"

Third option. Neither. It's best to be intellectual honest about it and don't claim that you know.

"The statement from Araki does not state that hamon = hermit purple, only that those who use hamon would have the personification of it as well, hermit purple. "

The mangakin have officially stated hamon=hermit purple. He's also the one who estabilshed Star platinum as FTL. "Therefore, a concrete visualization of it would be some sort of wire wrapped around the entire body, like a vine. If Jotaro's group time traveled to the world of Part 2, they would probably be able to see "Hermit Purple" wrapped around Joseph just like in Part 3."

DIO owns a hermit purple like stand which was Jonathan's.

"We still need proof that Hermit Purple is permanently conducting hamon, because that does not seem to be the case.He has explicitly wrapped it around DIO and has had it do no damage whatsoever, kind of strange if it really conducting hamon. Furthermore he has actually yelled to DIO that he was going to combine both Hermit Purple and hamon which debunks WOG and your argument, since it's redundant to combine Hermit Purple and hamon if the latter is already made up of hamon."

Barron Zepelli stated that both hamon and the stone mask are the same energy . The reason why vampires disentigrate is due to a larger wave of hamon. I'm not making this up.

That is all

 

[ProfessorLord]

>Yes, no where in the manga claimed that DIO lost his vampiric abilities. But no where in the manga claimed that DIO kept his vampiric abilities either. This is where the third option lies.

On this site if there is nothing in source suggesting he has lost his abilities, then we do not need to constantly prove that he still has the same abilities every time he is on screen.

We naturally assume that they haven't lost it. This is the baseline assumption we make. I am sorry if you disagree or do not feel the same.

>Please don't use the anime adaptation as evidence of any sorts.

"Maybe one more person's blood will heal this wound and make this body mine."

It's never implied that Jonathan was resisting him in the original manga. Indeed, "the blood of a Joseph Joestar,which should be more compatible with the body of another Joestar."

"So if he has complete control of his body right now, as stated by himself, why can't he use any of his abilities again?"

Third option. Neither. It's best to be intellectual honest about it and don't claim that you know.

Fair enough on using the anime, it's just more convinent but yes, you are right when it comes to staying with the source material as much as possible.

Anyway, he still told Vanilla Ice that one more person's blood will make it his own damn body. That implies that Jonathan has been resisting him and it isn't his body, and that the blood of one more will make it his own body. If it's his own body, he has 100% control.

There is more evidence through his own statements (statements were used to create the argument of him not having his abilities in the first place, so it can be used to debunk the argument) that he should have total control of his body. If he has total control of his body, he can use all of his vampire abilities. Whether or not it's in character for him is another discussion. (it's not)

>"The statement from Araki does not state that hamon = hermit purple, only that those who use hamon would have the personification of it as well, hermit purple. "

The mangakin have officially stated hamon=hermit purple. He's also the one who estabilshed Star platinum has FTL.

No, WOG has stated HP is found in hamon users, that is all. From feats and what we've seen, Hermit Purple does not function like hamon at all. It does not vaporize vampires like hamon does. If it did, then of course WOG would be correct, but in this case it's a contradiction from the source.

I'm sure you know that source>WOG. That is also how we operate.

>Barron Zepelli stated that both hamon and the stone mask are the same energy . The reason why vampires disentigrate is due to a larger wave of hamon. I'm not making this up.

They are the same energy, but two different uses/sides of it, as Zeppeli has said. Vampires disentigrate because they are recieving a larger wave of the OPPOSITE side energy. If not, then hamon users would be able to disentigrate each other with hamon, so long as one hamon is stronger than anothers hamon.

If what you're saying is true it would logically mean giving hamon the ability to disintegrate humans, which I'm sure sounds silly to you.

 

[ProfessorLord]

It also kind of ruins the revision when everyone is like "yeah OP seems good but ill wait till someone comes to debunk" and then people don't reply when it is debunked.

 

[SolidEye234]

>On this site if there is nothing in source suggesting he has lost his abilities, then we do not need to constantly prove that he still has the same abilities every time he is on screen.

So Special Pleading due to how it's currently unfalsifiable. The "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." He hasn't demonstrated his abilities in the course of Part III.

>We naturally assume that they haven't lost it. This is the baseline assumption we make.I am sorry if you disagree or do not feel the same.

Patantly, I would disagree due to the claims being based off of speculation.

>Anyway, he still told Vanilla Ice that one more person's blood will make it his own damn body. That implies that Jonathan has been resisting him and it isn't his body, and that the blood of one more will make it his own body. If it's his own body, he has 100% control.

If Jonathan was resisting DIO then doesn't that imply Jonathan still have hamon in his body due to DIO losing some control? Draining a hamon user's blood would simply makes it worse if we're using that logic.

>No, WOG has stated HP is found in hamon users, that is all. From feats and what we've seen, Hermit Purple does not function like hamon at all. It does not vaporize vampires like hamon does. If it did, then of course WOG would be correct, but in this case it's a contradiction from the source.

As I've stated, Hamon is stored in the bloodstream. The breathing technique only strengthen the hamon inside due to how Straizo had hamon inside. Hence, it's a breathing technique.

>They are the same energy, but two different uses/sides of it, as Zeppeli has said. Vampires disentigrate because they are recieving a larger wave of the OPPOSITE side energy. If not, then hamon users would be able to disentigrate each other with hamon, so long as one hamon is stronger than anothers hamon.

....

Zepelli has never stated anything about "the OPPOSITE side energy." Please link me to a scan stating this.

 

[SolidEye234]

It also kind of ruins the revision when everyone is like "yeah OP seems good but ill wait till someone comes to debunk" and then people don't reply when it is debunked.

Please don't get cocky.

 

[SolidEye234]

If what you're saying is true it would logically mean giving hamon the ability to disintegrate humans, which I'm sure sounds silly to you.

Does that include the scene with Ultimate Kars against Joseph when Kar's used his hamon?

 

[Desmond253]

I don't really have an opinion on these revisions, but before things get heated please try to keep it civil.

 

[ProfessorLord]

>So Special Pleading due to how it's currently unfalsifiable. The "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." He hasn't demonstrated his abilities in the course of Part III.

Yes, correct. It is unfalsifiable because you are claiming we revise a system that we have decided to use for this website. I'll repeat it again: if there is nothing suggesting they had lost it, then there is no need to constantly re-prove they have the same ability.

Also: Goku not using the Destructo-Disc in Dragon Ball Super is not enough reason to suggest that he is now unable to use it. Such a line of logic is not valid because it does not take into account the potential reasons why Goku had chose not to use it, such as now having more powerful moves or simply not finding the right situation or opportunity to use such a move.

>If Jonathan was resisting DIO then doesn't that imply Jonathan still have hamon in his body due to DIO losing some control? Draining a hamon user's blood simply makes it worse if we're using that logic.

No, because there is no indication how he is resisting him, nor is there anything suggesting that a dead body can retain hamon for up to 100 years. Once you stop breathing, you quickly lose the hamon that was generated inside of your body. We've seen this from Jonathan. I personally believe Jonathan was ACTUALLY resisting him, like in a physical manner, struggling for control.

>As I've stated, Hamon is stored in the bloodstream. The breathing technique only strengthen the hamon inside due to how Straizo had hamon inside. Hence, it's a breathing technique.

As me and Dargoo have already told you, if Straizo had hamon inside of him he would DIE.This is him using hamon breathing as a vampire. That is also him immediately dying.

>Zepelli has never stated anything about "the OPPOSITE side energy." Please link me to a scan stating this.


I'm pretty sure "They are like the back and front!" is synonymous with "They are opposite sides!"

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't really have an opinion on these revisions, but before things get heated please try to keep it civil.

I haven't seen anything other that a bit of attitude (which should stop), however if I see any direct insults I'll close this.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Does that include the scene with Ultimate Kars against Joseph when Kar's used his hamon?

You're abusing the ignorance on others parts. Ultimate Kars was the perfect biologically being, able to generate hamon with far more proficiency and capacity. His hamon energy reached levels comparable to the actual su, that's why Joseph was hurt by his hamon.

 

[ProfessorLord]

@Dargoo aren't you going to comment?