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Well I can see why this revision is gonna take some time
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Digimon Discusion Thread ALL IN ONE Revisions Update
- Thread starter Executor_N0
- Start date
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- digimon
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All the mons have inner worlds?
Everything from Fresh to Mega?
How is what kinds of worlds they have determined?
Do we need to document the worlds for every species, especially if some may only have it through assumption, those important to scaling chains aside?
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Yeah, we're not rushing the revisions for multiple reasons.
A lot has changed since the cosmology blog and there is now more knowledge on how Digimon as a verse works even if it may be complicated sometimes. And Executor is working on his blogs before we Digimon supporters can start with the Digimon cosmology page. Also, as previously mentioned, the profiles need to be updated first. There isn't many editors for the Digimon pages. There is also plans to rework the physiology page (as Omegabronic previously stated).
I much prefer we don't rush this so we can make the upgrades to Digimon more solid and irrefutable by gathering enough evidence.
Not to mention we keep getting new content and digging up old stuff. For example, the inner world stuff was expanded upon more recently even if it was used in the past. Or Digimon Survive stuff which has new content as well as expanding on old concepts.
For more details, the inner world blog is posted here.
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Reminds me that I have to update it with New Century stuff. Justimon capturing MoonMille in his inner world like a chad.
Also Imperialdramon's inner world in The Begining.
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I must have missed that in the group chat cause I definitely need to see it.
I guess Mille is being a jobber as per usual.
Who's the jobber supreme in Digimon? Mille? Seraphimon? Leomon? Huanglongmon?
Edit: Oh yeah and definitely feel free to add the scan for Imperialdramon's inner world from the new movie.
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Inner worlds being mentioned in a mobile game was a surprise.... Justichad.
He did become Zeed at the end, and since Justimon had fused with Mille at the start
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,179
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Late but glad to hear that Digimon isn’t abandoned.
As someone from the earlier days of VS nerd stuff, hearing that Arceus is now 1-A and stomps all of Digimon rn is… weird, to say the least.
Good luck to everyone on the revisions!
As someone from the earlier days of VS nerd stuff, hearing that Arceus is now 1-A and stomps all of Digimon rn is… weird, to say the least.
Good luck to everyone on the revisions!
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- Thread starter
- #49
Digimon aren't going to be generically that high-level from what I gathered, stuff will still have lower levels and such, at most there's a very high hidden potential to everyone in the verse, but the number of characters that actually realize that potential isn't that high.
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,179
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Wow… Pokemon, Digimon, and SMT all being potential 1-A in the future. What a thought.
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Ah, & Shakkoumon probably doesn't have any kind of cred or scaling like Paildramon does to get this time?
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- Thread starter
- #52
I wouldn't go in a rush thinking that will be accepted, Digimon on its own is kinda of a strange place regarding consistency and potentiality. In fact, if it wasn't for the fact that we have no date for the next Digimon Story game, I would prefer to do any revisions after that game is released (Especially now that the only producer we knew was working on the cosmology at that level was removed from Digimon).
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- Thread starter
- #53
Depends on the individual, I'm almost sure profiles will be kept with a "standard species" and a "unique individual". So there might be specific Paildramon and Shakkoumon that scale to very high feats, while others don't.
Adventure 02 Paildramon, for example, has a V-Jump statement that he could counter the force of a Digital World-busting explosion, but even if that feat is accepted, that wouldn't scale to a generic Paildramon species.
Especially in recent years, when Bandai has constantly pushed for "Individual uniqueness" to be recognized by the fans.
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What tier is such an "explosion"? I'm assuming 02's specific continuity/cosmology affects the yield.
What've they been doing to that extent?
Producer who was known to be working on cosmology? Who & how, if I may ask?
I don't keep up with that part of Pokemon, but I'd assume it's just Arceus, & the Creation Trio, & by extension, maybe the Lake Trio.
MAYBE Darkrai, Cresselia & Lucario, but those 3 likely lack any claim with the canon split preventing scaling to game stuff via movies or games.
So it's likely only 1, 4 or 7 Pokemon. Out of about 1025.
1025 / 7 = 146.42857~
100 / 146.42857~ = 0.68%.
When only 0.68% of the verse is 1-A, if that, I'd hardly say we could say "Pokemon is 1-A".
& an overgeneralizing statement where the whole 'verse is referred to by its highest tiered member, especially with so many members is deeply irking to me.
Sorry, sorry.
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It depends on how the DW will be tiered, which is still undecided (anyone who is already talking about 1-A is jumping on the gun way too soon).
But answering the two other questions, two producers were working to "Unify" the worldview of Digimon. First, you have the general person in charge of Digimon as a whole, Masashi Harada. He was a producer who worked for Bandai in a few series before (including Digimon), but had his defining moment working on the ".Hack" series, where he was in charge of the games as a whole, especially the worldview and the way that everything under that brand was connected into a singular timeline (in fact, one of his earlier recorded pictures is him and his staff going over the planned timeline for the entire series). After that, he went on to produce other series under the concept "There's no Original Work/Everything is Original Work", basically the idea that in certain series, there should be no concept of separation between different materials and that they should all be treated at the same time with the same settings.
He did that with series like "Majin Bone" and "Aikatsu!" deciding that anything in any media should be free to be used in any other media, as they should all be assumed to be the same, because the audience should be able to go to any media to appreciate what they saw in another one, so letting any lore be valid for any work was his solution to that.
Digimon historically lacked a proper unified view of itself (going more on that for the other producer), so Harada was called to work on Digimon to bring the concepts he applied in his previous series, and so he started the "Digimon Reboot Project", which basically meant reorganizing the series under a more singular and unified view (while still letting some works have a uniqueness of their own). So in the last few years, there have been various artbooks, website updates, and story releases that were made with the idea of unifying the series. It's at some points still open, but they have prepared various lore ideas that could be used to unify anything made for Digimon under a singular view.
The other producer was Kazumasa Habu, who was a producer in charge of Digimon games. He started on Digimon Story Lost Evolution as an assistant and became the overall producer with Super Xros Wars. Mainly with Re: Digitize, he started to become a "fan of Digimon" and created the world of Re: Digitize as a "unification of the many previous works", including various cameos from anime characters that were meant to "have saved that world in the past" (he did that already with SXW, but production-wise, Re: Digitize is what we know the most with development).
From there, he started to look over the entire Digimon series as a fan and started to discuss with previous staff members who worked with the V-Pets, Games, anime, manga, etc. His attempt was to eventually create a unified view of Digimon. First, he did Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth to establish the notion of the two views of Digimon (Cyberpunk and Occult) and introduce a way in which both could coexist, then he would make more games to better explore those concepts; he released Digimon Survive to truly explain the Occult side and "give his idea of what Digimon truly are", and he had many other projects in the making, including a new "Digimon Story" game that would touch on the concept of multiple Digital Worlds that was being revised at the time.
Sadly, after many delays, he got removed from working on the series, and now the future of Digimon games and all the projects he had been in a completely unknown direction.
If I were to explain the whole situation of Digimon, I would be comparing it to DC as it's approached in this Wiki. You have a multiple-decade-long series with various writers with their own ideas about the lore and the world that were so vast and contradictory that it's possible to create multiple cosmologies for each writer and let each one of them be tiered as their own thing, including the versions of the cosmology that were made to unify previous cosmologies. Digimon is shorter and of a smaller scale, so it's not like we could literally tier each work on their own complete cosmology, but it's basically that.
The difference would be that in the last few years, there has been an active attempt by at least two producers (and a few writers) to really bring forth this idea of unification using different concepts, including a metafictional element. The common idea is that "the Digital World is so vast that no one can get the full picture, so each different parallel world who saw the DW at different times and different cognitions developed their own idea of the Digital World, which is shaped by thoughts, and so every depiction of the Digital World is just the same world seen through different lenses" or something like that.
This, of course, can help to create a unified view from previous works and help new writers make use of any lore that they want (Adventure 2020 and Ghost Game made a lot of use of material across the entire series, for example), but at the same time, it also justifies anyone who wants to do whatever they want, including breaking canon.
This is where we get to the other side of this with "Digimon Adventure Last Evolution Kizuna" and "Digimon Adventure 02 The Beginning" which were made with the idea of "breaking Digimon", and although the director justifies he didn't really "create any contradictions" the assistant producer (Who was Producer of Digimon anime in the past) truly gave then complete freedom to write anything even if contradicted the lore, which resulted in the original director of the anime to be removed from the work because he found the resulting material to completely contradict his lore (Going over to tell that he spent months teaching about the original lore to the staff only for them to not only ignore him but also state during interviews about what the idea back then was, only for him to show that they were wrong).
Digimon movies (and anime in general) are also in a complicated situation because we don't know where they'll go, but just The Beginning, which was supposed to "answer a never-before-answered question" (that it was, as the director had shared the answer before), has about four different explanations that completely spin the main point of the movie that aren't agreed upon by neither the producer, the director, the supervisor, nor anyone else.
So for reasons of indexing, Digimon currently has two major branches about connection: one that wants to unify as much of Digimon as possible under one singular, all-encompassing view, trying to incorporate as many settings as possible, and another that prefers to pursue other storytelling possibilities, even if it means completely ignoring previously established lore.
And this is just the situation from the last 4 to 6 years of Digimon; the entire 25+ history is full of complicated situations like this and the lore being spun around by multiple writers and producers, some of whom knew what was being done in other places, others didn't, and the explanation for how all of that worked also changed various times in the most random of sources.
To give one example, the last lore book brought a more detailed explanation about the V-pet lore of Digimon, which many fans thought to be brand-new made just for that book, but just a few weeks ago I found out that it was actually from a very old card game case that was released in 2001. Somehow they decided to include in that singular version a complete, unique version of Digimon's backstory (there were around 5 of them, and only that one had it), and that is the source of the material that was used in the more recent lorebook; literally, no one knew about it until I found out while looking for material on stores.
And from the production side, that is really how that is being done. The person currently working on major parts of the unified lore is really a fan who was hired by then in the early 2010s, he researches on his own and sometimes even asks other fans on Twitter to see if they know anything about the lore that he didn't know so he can include in his work. The Bandai-side approach has been to make the view of the world of Digimon more of a community work that is developed as the fans discover more material, which is why there's lore being used by any source we can find (For another comparison, a major side-quest in Digimon World Re: Digitize Decode was based on a small trivia included in one very old sticker book that nearly no one has).
So, about any future Digimon blog posts made by me, they'll all be full of these obscure media that are being used by the recent lore books and games, trying to give the full picture like the last lore page of the most recent lore book asked. Since it's purely a source for Digimon lore, the blog will not include any tiering discussion; I'll leave that for supporters. I'll simply give the sources. Eventually, when a decision is made, the blog can be updated to include tiers, but the blog will not be made to focus on them (which is why any discussion regarding Tier 1-A isn't really worth it; the blog is not being made to get any tiers; it's being made to simply share Digimon lore).
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Eagerness to "upgrade" does often seem like a common phenomenon in the VS Debating community.
To me, I see it as a hindrance.
It doesn't matter what tier they are so long as they are indexed & accurately, paradoxical as that may sound.
We have 2 purposes: Documenting the info, & facilitating recreational debates.
If a tiering revision that's been delayed for years makes profiles inaccurate in non-tiering statistics for years, I see that as a very bad thing that should be shunned. On the part of the users, not the system or the profile, but the people who support such negligence of maintaining accurate information of genuine facts & hindering the facilitation of our recreation like matches.
Although I can understand if that may be a rather unpleasant perspective, so I do apologize for any bother with it.
Tragic. One can only hope for the best, I suppose.
I wish I could say more, as I feel strongly, but have little to say on this part.
So a creative schism. Tragic.
Interesting!
Not to oppose anything, but were you yourself, Executor_N0, the primary source of that lore (re)discovery?
Forgive my lapse in understanding that leads to me asking this, but is that fan a previously mentioned individual, such as Masashi Harada?
Can you recommend anywhere to view such information online, especially as it would be seen in the form it was discovered in?
This makes me wonder about "unofficial" materials.
Some franches may "disown" works or consider it noncanon, for example, if its creation wasn't connected to them.
For example, Nintendo has such a stance regarding the CD-i Zelda games.
& I'd assume some franchise like Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh! would take a similar such approach to some 4Kids original media. (Like the non-novelized version of the Pyramid of Light movie, or the Capsule Monsters anime 4Kids made.)
What if an American company, like a localizer, makes a Digimon book that's a novelization of an episode, or an original story?
How disconnected/"unofficial" can something be to be enveloped in their acceptance?
How interesting & novel seeming!
That said, I appreciate the thoroughness & organization of such a method, since in theory, simply documenting sources should provide a very appreciable repository of (re)sources.
I do apologize for any bother, & I hope none of my response has seemed reductive. The care & effort you've put into this response to me asking something like this out of the blue is admirable & humbling!
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I do think there is some truth in what you say.
However, tbf, while extraordinary claims require evidence, this is especially true when it comes to a verse like a Digimon. Let's be honest (as much as I love Digimon), it isn't as popular as it was during Adventure era. The point is because of that, most people are either not familiar with Digimon or don't know (or are skeptical) that Digimon has anything multiversal/beyond multiversal.
Therefore, if we Digimon supporters are claiming anything multiversal or beyond multiversal, it requires clear evidence.
Yup. We have the perfect level feats blog right here.
That aside, to summarize very quickly:
- We are not rushing the revisions.
- There are other things to fix that will be prioritized before doing cosmology update that fits with the new tiering system.
- The profiles are being updated and there will most likely be an overhaul on the physiology page.
- We vsbw Digimon supporters have discussed/are discussing the new tiering system and how that will affect the verse, but nothing is decided/final.
- The revisions will definitely take a while so don't expect it very quick.
Might want to update it just in case anyone wants to join the discord server.
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MT4?
RigelBR7
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Type 4 Multiverse
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I don't think Digimon ever used that concept. Not including the issues with the series and it's multiple authors which Executor mentioned.
RigelBR7
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Digimon Digimon works with an MT4 + Neoplatonic Emanationism + R>f on the dimensional wall. What kind of problems would different authors bring up?
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How MT4 qualifies in Digimon? I'm curious.
RigelBR7
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E It's that parallel of the digital world with the real world and the dimensional wall, and the dimensions beyond comprehension, also the world of Plato's ideas and emanationism help this argument. Even the codes and servers are abstractions and shadows of something greater, and beyond the dimensional wall and the real world this continues without limits.
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I don't think that's enough by wiki standards.
RigelBR7
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There are still more things, but I can't elaborate and say everything here, I'm not very good at explaining, but for me it's enough. Do you have dsc?
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Link to our discord server is posted in an early post of the thread.
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If you have any questions, the discord link is hyperlinked in a post of the 1st page of this thread.
Here. Above is discord link. It should be updated.
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No, I was merely the one who found out it wasn't new, so I did not have any influence on the actual book, but other fans did. In particular, the book credits Zeromaruyagami, who is a well-known Digimon collector, for helping with the making of the book (in fact, part of the lore in the book seems to come from Zeromaruyagami's own theories about Digimon that he once shared in his personal blog).
I did have my content seen by people who worked on Digimon; some time ago, the director of Digimon Adventure and other Digimon projects did some retweets and comments on my threads, wondering how I got so much information that has since been lost. When he did his response post to a livestream by the supervisor of the new movie, he commented, "She might not know because none of this was written outside of the production side." I replied to him, showing that in fact, they had released material with that content before, including interviews and materials he supervised; he just had forgotten about that, and I got to help him remember that. Later, he would see this as the failure of having content exclusive to books that are never reprinted, and he decided to share some production material he had so it wouldn't be lost. However, since he has a lot of work, the chances he has to make blog updates are limited.
No, Harada is more of the "business producer", he has some knowledge of Digimon, but his work is more to guide the people who actually know the stuff so they can do the work like he wants. The person that I was talking about is Totsuka Kuniaki (I did a summary of his history with the franchise in my personal blog).
I don't know if there's a proper archive for that, it's more that it happens to be found over the years and we discover what happened even later, although this is changing recently (In special due to Zeromaruyagami's work being quickly credited in the most recent projects).
Digimon is like that as well, it's more that there are three major companies that have around equal importance in the franchise and they each can do their own stuff mostly that doesn't need to have oversight of the others. They need to if they are going to use the stuff the others did (Like, Toei needs Bandai oversight while using Digimon settings, but they are free to do whatever they want with new lore and human characters). It's more that each branch developed their own lore on their own and this created some contradictions, which is what they are trying to fix (At least, Bandai and Shueisha are, Toei doesn't seem to care much to that level).
There were also various other companies, especially overseas, that made Digimon-original content, but most of them are completely disregarded by Bandai (But some aren't, there are two games made by American-companies that were officially used by Bandai in Japan, Digimon Racing and Digimon Rumble Arena 2). In special, there's a Korean company called Move Games that is nearly always getting into problems with Bandai/Toei for using Digimon that didn't pay the license for and doing stuff that they were not allowed to, and they also claim that Bandai/Toei did little to help with their content, so they need to research on their own (Which results in much of the game not fitting with the official lore, by their own words).
There's one exception for this that is some material released in China, as there's a lot of original content there that was actually oversought by Bandai (In fact, one of them even released with a Appendix with the official Lore given by Bandai). In recent years most Digimon newly made in China has been used in Japan as well and the games are constantly being mentioned to "be made with complete supervision of the original owners to make sure that everything fits with the official lore".
So, if it's material released outside of Japan, it's likely not being taken into consideration, unless they are from China (There are exceptions, but they are very few).
But about new content, Bandai/Shueisha just showed even more original manga made by fans that are going to be released officially with their official "Digimon Manga Awards" project. So more and more the boundary between the staff and the fans is becoming thin, so really anything can happen right now.
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Interesting!
Of all the foreign works to adopt, why Digimon Racing & Digimon Rumble Arena 2? (Plus, what about DRA1?)
Early franchise weirdness?
Did those series attempt to tackle lore on their own or something?
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The answer is development hell and the need to get anything done.
Originally the plan during that time was to follow on the steps of the ".Hack" series and create a big story across multiple media, mainly a trilogy of games that would be expanded with animated shorts.
This was planned as the "big culmination of the Digimon franchise" and presented as a sequel to all Digimon World games, the anime, and also even the Virtual Pets to give a proper conclusion to the original Digimon universe before moving everything to the New Digital World.
However, after the game was first announced with promises of more updates the following months, they just went silent before the month after just saying "the game is still being done", that is when they announced Digimon Racing and Rumble Arena 2.
Eventually they would only touch on the games nearly 2 years later, now they were a singular game, "Digimon World X" (Called World 4 in the West) and the animated shorts turned into the TV-movie Digital Monster X-Evolution.
Details are rare about it (The director's blog explaining the situation is lost media because the logs were only kept online for one week before being deleted), but basically there was little incentive for the higher-ups to consider backing up such a project, which resulted in drastic changes.
The animated shorts that were initially conceptualized as 30-minute animations that would take place between chapters of the trilogy instead were made into a theatrical movie that was later changed into a TV-special.
And the trilogy of games that would become the "culmination of the history of the world of Digimon" turned into a singular game.
A lot of the promotional material for them teases that there's a hidden story connecting the two, as if they were just two different points of view of the same event, the same story happening across two worlds, but if you actually watch the movie and play the game, there's nothing.
X-Evolution is full of scenes that happens with no explanation with characters dying and coming back out of nowhere. The movie has so little context of what is happening that before airing the movie they had to add a 3-minute intro with a huge infodump explaining what was happening (The DVD release even increased it with an entire bonus feature explaining the backstory and showing scenes from the development).
The game itself is just mysteries. The world is attacked by beings with no context, and questions are made all the time of what they are and teases are made that maybe there were other stuff related to it (In special a post-game optional dialogue has a character wondering if the Royal Knights were behind everything).
Ultimately, the big plan for 2003~2005 just failed with the finished product being not even 1/3 of what was really planned.
And, since they still had to do something, they decided to promote Racing and Rumble Arena 2 instead.
The contrast was huge back then, because while you had the entire V-Jump discussing about the X-Antibody storyline and the last big reveal of what Alphamon was doing, you had these random articles about Digimon Racing.
I really wonder what was the reaction of Japanese fans during that era.
RigelBR7
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I didn't find the server.
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