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Digimon Adventure Revisions

I'm really sorry about not commenting on this earlier, but I guess it just slipped my mind.

To be honest, I wasn't completely on board with this upgrade either, since I was under the impression that the planets were too small as well.

However, given that the novel is supposed to reveal new information that wasn't shown in the anime, I suppose it takes precedence over the latter.

We'd have to examine the Kanji behind this part to make sure that it actually said star, but given all the details I think it should still go through given Vademon's entry.
 
Vadermon's entry states he could hurl planets and asteroids at his opponents. If the planets and asteroids in his dimension were anything to go by, that attack can't be that powerful because they're not that much bigger than MegaKabuterimon (though they were, at least, ten times his size).

There's also the fact that DemiDevimon survived through the whole ordeal, and he is a rookie level Digimon. Either that's an outlier or there wasn't any kind of dimension destruction involved, therefore no harm would fall upon him.

There's still the illusion theory, you know. I can post the episode screenshots if you want.
 
It could simply be that DemiDevimon surviving is an outlier. Just like the Champion levels survivng a bloodlusted Alphamon.
 
Or DemiDevimon could actually be the series' true villain. He only pretended to be weak and pathetic, but that was just his avatar watching over his minions carrying out his plans. He'll reveal his true form in Digimon Adventure Tri, just you wait.
 
Demi-Devimon= The evil of the Digital World. ovo

It's good to be able to make jokes at a time like this....No one's all high-strung...
 
After years of debating online, I've learned that you do not argue against, but with someone. Also, I feel like you guys should know about this:

http://prntscr.com/fpsmmj

I found it at 10:59 from episode 24 right after the eyecatch. If that really is an alternate dimension, it's at least galaxy-sized.
 
But we have a Galaxy-level Black Hole as well.... Oh boy.....
 
OK let's start.

The size of Koushiro with the planet has never been compared. He was at the top of the planet that was similar to Earth, but it was never said that he was covering parts of the planet with his body as the example you brought, I may be located at the north pole of the Earth in Zen position that I would still me Identify with what is in the description of the scene.

The largest planet of one of the Vademon attacks, it has never been said that the other planets that were in the Mysterious Universe were the size of that one, you do not provide any basis for that. Just because one of the Vademon techniques uses to create mini-celestial objects does not mean that the entire space of the Mysterious Universe is tiny as that of the attack in question.

Now you are relating the distortion of space-time in the mysterious universe with the situation on the ascent of the mountain, however such a relationship, although it may seem meaningless, has never been confirmed. There are many fan-theories who relate things with a lot of sense trying to explain many things in the franchise, but until there is an official statement then it will not be used. Koushiro was very straightforward to say that the clouds surrounding the mountain were an illusion, nothing was ever mentioned about the Mysterious Universe being an illusion, it was never treated as being something like this then only because it makes sense to treat the Mysterious Universe as one Illusion does not make it official. Now about the other points:

  • Yes, they contradict each other on many points, but that does not make it wrong to use the two together, much less unfair. The novel is completely canonical in the new claims, this was stated by the director of Digimon Adventure. The contradictions exist because you can not just take everything that is in the anime and put it in the novel, so they have modified parts of the story and added new facts that were not revealed neither in Adventure nor even in Adventure 02 (And such facts are being used Currently in Digimon Adventure TRI.). So while there is no direct claim that the Mysterious Universe has no real stars, or that no star has been destroyed in the episode then Novel information will continue to be valid.
  • What signs did you want Vademon to demonstrate in that place? He spends some time there, however much of the time he's out of the Mysterious Universe in his shop. The only time it was said that space-time was distorted was in relation to the Mysterious Universe, Koushiro and Tentomon spent many days in it, but Vademon would not need it because he spent most of the time outside the Mysterious Universe. And even though he spent a lot of time inside the Mysterious Universe, what kind of effects did you expect to occur in him?
  • The distortion in space-time can not be an illusion, Taichi and Koushiro made direct communication with Taichi in the real world, and it could only be possible for that to occur at that time if both were synchronized in time (ie time passing Faster for them than in the Digital World). If it was just an illusion it would be impossible for such communication to occur (And such communication was shown directly in episode 21, so what happened there was clearly real).
  • Next Order has already explained, it is not necessary for humans to feed themselves in the Digital World. They can do this if they want, but it is not really mandatory for them.
  • Like Vademon, what kind of effects did you expect to occur in him when he entered the Mysterious Universe? The initial part of the fall of Koushiro and Tentomon was clearly an illusion, but nothing in the anime or novel states that the Mysterious Universe was also an illusion.
  • The first Vademon attacks were not the "Akuma no Nage Kissu" he began to chase using your ray gun as well as in the novel.
  • From what I know "Tentai" writing "Õñ®õ¢ô". And I did not find those kanjis in the scan I sent, and even if there were they will not bring anything related to the Novel scene, they are completely different contexts.
  • Vademon had not even thrown planets into the scene, the moment Novel refers to is when Vademon entered the Mysterious Universe and started hunting Koushiro and Tentomon using his ray gun.
  • The meaning of the word in question is: a lot of very small broken pieces. Tell me how a star can not be reduced to smaller pieces, the simple concept of destruction as it is generally used is the reduction of a whole into smaller fragments. If I have a star and am able to break it into smaller pieces that should not join, so one must overcome the GBE, so I am able to reduce it to smithereens.
  • Well, unfortunately we do not have the original scans if you want so much to see them, if you can you can talk with Onkei and ask him to scan the original scene for you to check out. Anyway Onkei is not new in the Japanese translation into English and has knowledge about the translation difficulties in questio, if you are able to prove he is wrong then fine, but until this is proven, I believe it to be Correct to rely on the translation of Onkei. We do not need to check kanji for kanji of the games of Ryo to use the translation of Ajora, we do not have to do the same for the translations of Onkei.
Finally giving continuity in this I believe that the necessary points for you to finalize this at once are:

  • Bring proof that the Mysterious Universe is really an illusion, a talk of the characters or the narrator is enough for this, however the relations you have brought only indicate that there is possibility (Actually the possibility of anything being an illusion Always exists, it is really necessary to prove directly that it is an illusion).
  • Prove that the stars in the background of the image are just miniatures, you say that the asteroids and Vademon planetoids in your attack are small does not make the theory that all the stars in the Mysterious Universe are also small in fact.
Edit: This description is not official, it's just a description given by Wikimon that does not match the DRB's (In fact many profiles on Wikimon have non-real descriptions, in fact sometimes there are descriptions for attacks that only came out on Hypercolosseum cards without any Type of official description). The only description that fits in the event of the anime is the databook that is on my blog saying that Vademon is able to attack your opponent with countless planets.

Besides, the size of the planet is not everything. Density is always a factor that must be taken into account, and as it is called directly from the planet then it must potentially correspond with this informatio to actually be a planet, so be attacked with a planet while performing a feat Star level is not An error being that we do not know the density of the planet.
 
Yeah, but then there's still my argument that it was a miniaturized illusion. If it happens to get debunked, then I'll concede that MK destroyed a galaxy-sized dimension. Or at least killed the one who mantained it.
 
Also, it does feels weird that no one noticed this before. Did any of you watch the episode? I'm not trying to make fun of any of you, but still- that's a huge thing to miss out on.
 
To be fair it has been awhile since I've watched Adventure...
 
Yes, I watched the episode in question, in the blog that was used in question I even released a video with the scene of the combat through an edition that I myself made of a file that I downloaded. I myself can prove that I have these files, here you can see the properties of the file that I downloaded and will verify its existence from the day 21 of May of 2017 and here you have the file edit counting only with the scene of the combat of Kabuterimon And Vademon that I used to illustrate the blog.
 
Wait, before I answer your questions, may I ask you something? Why is now everything within the Digimon Universe canon to each other? It's like saying Xenoverse is canon because it actually can take place within the series due to all of the time travelling shenanigans Chronoa can do while using the time scrolls.
 
If it refers to novel and anime, the relationship between the two was dictated directly by the director of both anime and novel, I mentioned this in my blog:

    • Although Novel contains a lot of information that contradicts the anime, a lot of information is additional to the anime and according to Digimon Adventure director Hiroyuki Kakudou claims he knew some events were rearranged differently because he could not just describe what happened in the anime And to accompany this new facts that have not been mentioned neither in Digimon Adventure and Digimon Adventure 02 have been added to complement the reading and that all enjoy the work, so the additional information can rather be considered canonical.
Of course, we can't just take the TV series and put it into a digest, so the episodes have been rearranged in a different way. We've also contained new facts revealed for the first time that not even 02 had covered, so that those people who have watched all of the television series can enjoy them too.
While it is not contradictory material with the anime is considered a new fact that already existed and had not been revealed. This is confirmed since various information contained only in Novel is now being used in the franchise, as the Four Sacred Beasts are the Digimon of the first chosen or the Digital World is originally the World of Ideas.
 
I'll take the easier ones out of the way first.

Now, now, Koushiro wasn't stated to be sitting at the top of the planet. If he was, I wouldn't be complaining about it. There's a slight difference between on top and on the top. On top definetely implies he was sitting on the outermost part of the planet. Maybe it has something to do with the translation, I'm not sure.

The basis for all the planets inside being the same size of the one Vademon hurled at MK is this screenshot:

http://prntscr.com/fptfb8 > This is the same planet that was hurled at MK.

http://prntscr.com/fptfrc > The planets are visually identical, the similiarities are way on point for it to be just a coincidence.

http://prntscr.com/fptgxm > Here's how some of the other planets scale to the one hurled at MK.

http://prntscr.com/fpthnu > After being flung a few hundred meters away from Vademon, that's how small it got. Proving that the distance between the planets in my third screenshot cannot be that great after all.

I agree that it might not have been a illusion anymore. However, there are still plenty of evidence that the Mysterious Universe was of reduced size in all aspects:

Koushiro is shown to have no problem breathing in that dimension, even though it's stated to be solar system-sized. If it really was solar system sized, the oxygen would be spread out so that virtually Izzy would not be able to use it as a source of oxygen for his body. Though if the planets aren't real planets and the stars also aren't real stars... I could see why.

Izzy didn't flat out freeze to death, so it's not really a vaccum.

Some of the planets are shown to be relatively close to each other. Usually, they'd smash against the nearest, but these showcase no sign of gravitational pull except for the one Vademon hurls at MK, but since it's a planetoid much smaller than pluto I don't really know what to say except for that it might not be a real planet after all. Just a miniature created by Vademon. Since no density is stated, we cannot make anything out of MK's feat of destroying both the planetoid and Vademon with his Horn Buster.

Weird, I'm sure I can see the Tai kanji there, but it is true that I can't find the Ten. I must've imagined the Ten. Oh well... Sorry about it, though I still have to take a look at the novel that I can't find untranslated for the life of me. It's ironic when you think about, that we can't find the unstranslated version of something when it's usually the other way round.

I also love the fact that Koushiro can dodge the lasers from Vademon's gun. That, or he has the aim of a Stormtrooper, which would make him rather unreliable in battle if he can't shoot down a human and a Rookie.

Ah, yes, yes. There's this too. Wouldn't the shockwave of the explosion of the stars, like, kill the duo? I mean, they can't be far away from him if Vademon was trying to kill them. Even then, the aftermath of the stellar detonations would eventually get to them, right? (the author could be oblivious to that, though)
 
Unfortunately I will have to travel later so I will spend a day unable to update myself here, this should be one of my last comments for now.

A planet from the Mysterious Universe being similar to that of the Vademon's attack will not yet indicate that they are really the same, much less that because of this planet all the others are also to be. Despite what you say the great similarity between them will not indicate that they are compared. In Digimon Frontier we have a Lucemon attack that simulates the Solar System perfectly in all its forms, but we clearly see that it is tiny, this will not indicate that the solar system is really tiny. We have several attacks in fiction that simulate something (In V-tamer we have a galaxy behind Seraphimon when he uses Seven Heavens for example) and in many cases it is just that, a simulation. As much as it is very similar it will not make anything above a concidence unless there is a direct comparison with it.

Lack of fidelity to reality in space proves nothing, this is something common in fictio. We can see this in the franchise itself, in the Adventure we have the Chosen ones within the Darkness Zone of Apocalymon that erased everything that was there and it was a pure emptiness covered in darkness, nevertheless the chosen ones could walk, float, breathe, did not die of cold or nothing Of the type. In Digimon Frontier we had the same, the chosen ones went to the moons, they stayed there normally, they went to the space and they stayed there without difficulty next to other Digimon, the same thing of the Koushiro in that episode. In neither case do we consider the size of the Digital World or the Darkness Zone to be tiny because of it.

Koushiro getting away from the Vademon beams may simply be an outlier.

It would not be something new in the franchise in the recent Digimon Adventure TRI. We had the chosen ones being completely covered by the attack of Mugendramon and they managed to escape by portals even after being completely covered by the attack also when in Digimon Frontier the humans were covered by a powerful blow of Lucemon and managed to survive. The same thing happened in the episode in question, everyone was covered by the explosion and even managed to escape, is simply PIS.
 
Both planets share great similiarities indeed. Both are somewhat green and have a ring on it. Since Vademon's attack hurls planets at the opponents, and a saturn-like one identical to the one shown prior to that event, it could be said that it simply happened to get caught in the way of his attack (and the animators got a bit lazy, so they just reused their coolest looking one). You have me beat here.

Didn't the Digi-Destined originally get erased when they entered the Darkness Zone? I'm pretty sure they were. I remember a dimension where there was only zeros and ones all over the place, then they talked about friendship a little and got back to the fight. I find it humorous that Digimon can be so inconsistent about those kinds of things. I think there hasn't been a season where one of the protagonists didn't almost drown, but they're just fine in space.

He dodged a punch from Tai (with goggles) once, so he might actually be that fast.

Wow, Digimon really needs to step up their game in terms of consistent human durability feats. It's confusing as hell (even worse than Dragon Ball, and that's saying something). Izzy did tank hits from Tai (with goggles), so the destruction of a star is nothing to him.

I still do have a problem with the feat. The Novel makes it look like it was Vandemon's death that caused the dimension to disappear. Wouldn't that be something like the Hades Hyperdimension feat?

Another problem with it is that Digimon aren't stated to be able to focus their destructive abilities in a single, tight spot, like many energy users from a bunch of series do, and their attacks sometimes fail to level a city. And I'm talking about Ultimate Level Digimon. Not to mention the countless times I've seen Ultimate and lesser Megas be completely destroyed by attacks with island level AoE. Care to explain? Heck, if I'm not mistaken, SaberLeomon was trying to use flamable chemicals to destroy a town in Digimon Masters.
 
I'm not mistaken. SaberLeomon (Ruler of the Western Region) actually attacked a place where people handle dangerous chemicals so that the explosion would level a fairly large portion of the nearest town and the release toxic fumes into the atmosphere. Saber knew such thing would sacrifice the lives of the Digimon he brought with him (an assault team composed of a bunch of Champion, Ultimate and Mega Level Digimon. Examples of them are SkullGreymon and lesser SaberLeomon). The fight against him is rather intense for new players, as it is needed a team of freshly evolved Megas to even stand a chance, without being able to know wether or not they would survive.

If those Mega's are anything to scale to Tai and Matt's freshly evolved Megas, I'm not sure. But Dragon said all Digimon is canon, so why wouldn't this be?

EDIT: Onkei did end up replying to me, he simply said: "It's wakusei."

Here's the e-mail: http://prntscr.com/fpv4xz
 
That is from DMO, right? DMO is korean, not japanese. So, its in a lower level of the "canon chain", as the main level of canon in Digimon is anything created by Bandai Japan/Wiz Inc (stuff like videogames, v-pets, etc), then anything made by Toei and Sueisha (anime and manga), then international stuffs (such as DMO or the US dub).

Not to say that DMO is not canon, just saying that is in the lower level of canonicity in Digimon.
 
While Digimon aren't stated to conserve their destructive capabilities, it is pretty obvious that's what they are doing. Fiction does this multiple times even without saying it. So this should not be a counter point whatsoever as we have many Multiversal+ Royal Knights who have like never actually destroyed the Multiverse. They just scale to characters who can. We can't really use CIS or PIS as an argument.

Although destroying that dimension is still a feat we have to re-examine. Is it Galaxy-Sized as a whole? Because, that would throw a rift in our scaling...Also what was the "Wakusei" kanji for again?
 
We have also to take into account that whatever affects the power levels of the Adventure-verse, also affects all the other anime-verses up to Xros Wars, plus the V-Tamer and Xros Wars manga-verses due to the crossovers.

So, this topic affects more than just the power levels of the characters from Adventure.
 
Not sure why there is an issue here for MegaKabuterimon. There are two ways to interpret the last scene: either Kabuterimon destroying Vademon caused the Mysterious Universe to collapse or MegaKabuterimon destroyed it along with Vademon. No matter which we choose, I don't see it making any difference. Whatever the end result, it would be applicable to MegaKabuterimon. For the first one, Vademon is the creator/sustainer of the realm which housed galaxies (there was atleast one in the anime), stars and planets. MegaKabuterimon murdered him. For the second, MegaKabuterimon destroyed the very place itself. So both cases end up favorable for MegaKabuterimon.

The "planets" Vademon throws with his attacks are definitely small. The last calc on the "large planet" thrown at MegaKabuterimon pegged the result at just Town Level+. The same however I don't think is true of the celestial bodies in the background of his realm.

The illusion part only applies to the mountaintop stuff, not the Mysterious Universe.

Digimon Humans have eternally been protected by the power of plot/PIS, that has never been a valid reason to dismiss feats. Plus, that's really common across fiction.

Don't think it's an outlier, to add to the other examples already presented, Digitamamon's shell had an entire universe/dimension full of stars and planets inside itself.

Attack AoE does not serve as a good indicator of power in Digimon (or many fictions for that matter) as Dragon explained. For example, Tankdramon has a much higher attack AoE than his evolution Darkdramon but that doesn't mean Tankdramon >>> Darkdramon.
 
Dragonmasterxyz
The "stars" he blew up were actually planets. It appears that it really was a mistranslation from 2009's Onkei. 2017's Onkei's word is much more credible, in my opinion.

@Machspyder

Pretty sure it's part of his Nightmare Syndrome attack.
 
Well, however said dimension does have stars in it. So there is that. He just never destroyed them.
 
Dragonmasterxyz
I asked Onkei what were the kanji used when reffering to the celestial bodies inside Vademon's dimension and he simply said: "It's wakusei." I'm not entirely sure he understood my question one hundred percent, so I sent another e-mail to confirm it.

EDIT: Never expected him to actually reply the first one, so we might get an answer sooner than we think.
 
@Koichi

No, it's definitely not part of the attack. Source: Adventure 02 Ep 14 near the end.

As you are consulting with Onkei-kun, it'd be best if you post the actual line with the stars quote and ask for the word used there, the email screenshot you posted does not make it look like your point was understood. Tbh, it's not that relevant since Vademon creating and sustaining the realm is a far better feat than destroying one of the stars.
 
@Machspyder

Ah, it's because I forgot to open up my e-mail. I sent him a screenshot and everything and that was his reply.
 
Well at the end of the day, I don't really see much changing considering the realm's size as a whole... Although it looks larger than we thought. We'll have to examine it again in the future. I do want Executor's(He's out for today) opinion though. As well as Dark and Reppu's.
 
Cal's help will be useful as well since he is another calcer. (This is also a way to get him more involved). Also thanks.
 
@Reppu

Yeah, that we know. However, the issue is that well said dimension is much larger than we thought. I mean as he himself said, we could literally have another big feat on our hands...This dimension could be.....Galaxy sized....or Solar System sized with the countless planets (or stars) in the background. This Dimension is weird.
 
Sorry, I haven't been keeping up with this thread as well as I should have.

So from what I'm getting, it's Solar System low-ball, Galaxy high-ball.
 
Basically. I personally think Solar System is more consistent for the Ultimate level Digimon due to feats beforehand, such as Wendigomon's feat and such.
 
For the Ultimates yes. Adventure Megas are a different story. This whole ordeal doesn't really effect them.
 
Well we generally have Ultimates scaling to Wendigomon's High 4-C feat at the very least while Megas scale to MegaKabuterimon's. Of course the Adventure Megas are far above normal Megas. Of course with this general scaling only notably strong Digimon will scale(Similar to how we've been doing so when we used the Low 5-B ratings). So no one will see a Solar System level PlatinumNumemon running around. Nor any Large Star level Garbagemon. And of course we have Digimon with like Universe level stuff like the BANTYO and such.
 
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