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Dies Irae Revisions

Monarch_Laciel

VS Battles
Retired
21,783
4,826
Having finally finished Dies Irae, I can finally put forward all the stuff I've found. Here we go, there's a fair amount.

Let's start with the obvious stuff and get into the bigger stuff as we go down.

Reinhard's Weaknesses
Base Weaknesses

First off, Reinhard is vulnerable to "self-inflicted injury". What this means, apart from that he can hurt himself by punching himself, he can be harmed by the members or weapons of his own Legio . And this does not mean "4-C everyone in Legion". It means that even if these members would normally be nowhere near powerful enough to bypass his durability and spiritual armour, they can still hurt him.

The italicized part is shown when the bayonett that harmed Reinhard in the first image is the weapon of a group of skeletons who Sakurai Kei had been fighting and defeating a few seconds before .

Hadou God Weaknesses

First, Reinhard is incapable of using his full Hadou God power against anyone not named Mercurius.

Second, Reinhard is so powerful that he actually damages himself as well when he fights in this stage.

Trifa Power Additio
Trifa can hide his presence (including his soul) from the senses of others. Even when he was a few metres away from Brenner, she didn't sense him until he allowed her to.

Additionally, Trifa has resistances to magic and temporal attacks .

Briah Weaknesses
Briahs can't be used indefinitely (unless your name is Reinhard of course). A few hours is their absolute max .

Reinhard's Soul Resurrection
As we all know, Reinhard can endlessly resurrect the souls of those who die within Gladshiemr. However, Reinhard's soul resurrection is not completely done on his own. It is Mercurius who is behind most of it . Although Reinhard is capable of forcing their resurrection, it takes a lot longer to resurrect them.

We can actually see that Merc is the main one responsible for this in two occassions. First,Beatrice requests Mercurius/Karl Kraft not to resurrect Eleonore immediately once she defeats her. Second, Reinhard himself asks Mercurius to resurrect his Eleonore and Machina, rather than simply doing it himself, and thus making everything go the way he wants it to, because if he was to do it himself it would take too long .

LDO Immortality
I've brought this up before, but I'll bring it up again.

The LDO are not immortal, at least not on their own. They can halt their bodies ages, but their soul will eventually self-destruct. There are two reasons why they serve Reinhard. One is that they can resurrect the dead. Two is that they become immortal, something they can only do through Reinhard. If they were already immortal and could truly live forever, they would not even bother.

Both Rusalka and the narrator straight up say it. And they clearly state that the souls will "perish" or be "annihilated". Not that Rusalka will kill herself. The self-destructive urge is something different.

Reinhard's Type 8 Immortality
So, apparently because Reinhard is Mercurius's Apoptosis, Reinhard cannot die unless Mercurius dies first.

Except it sure doesn't seem like it. In the Marie route, Ren kills Reinhard with Rea's help , and Mercurius is alive throughout the whole thing.

I have seen nothing that implies Reinhard can't die unless Merc does first. The closest thing I've found to that is stuff saying Reinhard will die (or at least lose his Hadou God status) if Mercurius dies.

Additionally, this whole "apoptosises can't die unless their host dies" is further contradicted by Shirou and Ren. Shirou is Ren's apoptosis, yet in all routes except Kei's, Shirou dies before Ren.

Kasumi route -> mutual kill by Wilhlem

Marie route -> Mutual kill with Schreiber

Rea route -> Suicide to open the last swastika.

Now apparently, Rindou survives an attack from the Tenmas in KKK because of her being Habaki's apoptosis. But that blatantly contradicts what is shown in DI several times. So I think that we should assume that is either the result of Hajun repainting the world, or PIS, and remove the Type 8 from Reinhard.

Spears ignoring distance
Rigth, let's finish with a big one.

So far we've all thought that Reinhard throws his spear, and then it hits you instantly because it skips distance. The reasoning for this annoys me. For reference, the reasonings I've seen for this are

1) "Rindou Koga can do it, and seeing as she is using the Longinuslanze Testament, Reinhard should be able to do it too."

2) "Valerian hit Wolfgang Schreiber with the spear while he was in Briah and thus always faster than his opponent"

3) "Valerian hit Wolfgang Schreiber with the spear when his Briah was creating infinite distance around himself"

4) "It is stated that the spear can do things "distance and dimension not withstanding""

Ok, I'm pretty sure these reasons are wrong.

1) Rindou Koga is from a different world that operates under a different Law (for those not familiar with the Masadaverse, a Law is basically the God determining how the world works, like Mercurius making the world reset itself, Marie letting people reincarnate, Hajun causing everyone to start killing each other, Nerose Satanel's denying everyone free will). If the mechanics of the verse have changed, I see no good reason why the spear should be considered to be the exact same spear, especially seeing as Rindou's profile makes no mention of her version of the LT being always faster, never-missing, and existence erasing like Reinhard's is. And for people who say "The spear was made by Mercurius, a 1-A Hadou God, so of course it would remain the same between repaintings", that's bull. The Law of the Throne God will overwrite everything that does not have equal or higher Taikyoku. Mercurius and Reinhard have infinitely less Taikyoku than Hajun, there is no way that the spear could resist Hajun's Law rewriting the world.

2) Wolfy is standing still in shock, so he's not outspeeding anything.

3) When the VN shows Valerian attacking Schreiber, it clearly shows him using his hand to impale him through the chest. The counter argument to this is that an image of the LT is shown moments before this image, which I couldn't screenshot because it happens to quick. However, every other time the Longinus is used, there is some mention of a blinding flash of golden light, which is notably absent during this sectio, and also, the spear literally cannot hit Reinhard's generals. It swerves out of the way to avoid them. When Eleonore gets between Valerian and Rea, the spear swerves out of the way to avoid her. This would neither be necessary or possible if the spear simply skipped distance to hit its target instantly. All this leads me to believe the spear image there was the visual equivalent of hyperbole, and Valerian wasn't even using the spear when he killed Schreiber.

However, if you insist that the spear image means that the spear was used, even if Wolfy is clearly shown being impaled by Valerian's hand, the spear literally can't hit Schreiber and there is a certain "Golden Schwan Lohengrin" chant missing that should be necessary for Valerian to fire the spear, there is an alternative explanation. Wolfy's ability lets him "always be faster than his opponent". Except in this case, Valerian was not Wolfy's opponent. Wolfy was entirely focused on Ren and Shirou as his enemies. In fact, Valerian was using his afore-mentioned ability to hide his presence, so no one even knew he was there until he had already impaled Wolfy through the heart . Thus the explanation is simple - Valerian was unaffected by Wolfy's briah because to Wolfy, Valerian didn't even register as existing, let alone being an opponent.

4) Not meaning what you think it means. The context of this quote is that the spear has just pierced through Wilhelm Ehrenbur 's Briah. "Dimension" has been used in DI several times to refer to other worlds, such as Reinhard's castle existing in another dimension. Similarly, the Creation Figments of Briahs are also refered to as "realms", "worlds", and "domains". Additionally, if something will chase you forever, while also being faster than you, why would distance matter anyway? It's a leap to say that it straight up ignores distance.

And now that I've done my best to disprove the reasoning behind distance-ignoring lance, I'll post a bunch of photos of all the time it has NOT ignored distance:

Ren straight up catches the Longinus as it flies past.If it simply warped over and hit him, this would be impossible.

Beatrice's lightning, at least in this case, proves to be faster than the spear. Again, impossible if it simply skipped over distance.

Rea and Trifa have a really quick conversation between the spear being fire and the spear hitting. Also, the spear "rends the air" . Both these would be impossible if the spear ignored distance - i.e. teleported over - to hit them instantly.

In between the spear being thrown and it hitting, Ren manages to run up and push Sakurai out of the way.

The spear scratches Kei as it goes past. Key words "goes past" - this would be impossible if it simply skipped distance.

Ren dodges the Holy Lance - again, something impossible if it really skips distance.

Man, that was a lot of stuff.
 
Please remember to add appropriate topics at the bottom of threads. It makes them much easier to find in the future.
 
Merc says that Reinhard forces ressurrection of souls. "Sooner or later Reinhard will force Machina and Eleonore to come back."
 
Also, Reinhard's own defense is lower than his offensive power, and it just changes with Gladsheimr full protection, where he is considered indestructible even to his Legion.
 
Yes, that is indeed in one of the images I linked.

Emphasis on the "later". He clearly can't do it instantly, nor even over a few minutes seeing as he can't do it quick enough to have Machina and Eleonore open the final swastika before Scherzo collapses his castle.
 
I'll wait on the experts but...spear ignoring distance...you do realize that well...reinhard wasn't at full power actually 8 swastika he can use spear to its max but he can't so there is that...it's dodgable due to also not having the never missing property
 
I have a few scans that upgrade Briah's to conceptual manipulation and give Spatial Manip to Machina and Schreiber.

I was planning to create a CRT too, and EMG said the same.
 
@Red I'm 90% sure that what you are saying is a fallacy of some kind. You are starting on the assumption that Reinhard can ignore distance, when barely anything even implies that, and trying to find evidence for reasons why he can't, instead of starting on the assumption that he can't, and trying to find evidence that he can.

As for being at full power, that shouldn't matter. Rindou Koga never reaches Reinhard's level of power, yet she can ignore distance with her version of the LT. Your argument contradicts itself. If the spear really has identical powers between KKK and DI, if can ignore distance at 7-B, it should still be able to at whatever Reinhard's 7/8 swatikas 80% of his 4-C level of power is, which is what he has for most of those images.
 
Wilhelm's Briah is said to consume concepts, and in the same fight Schreiber is constantly stated to be using the concept of "Boundless Acceleration and Absolute Speed."

Screenshot 2017-12-02-12-21-24
 
@schro according to ALRFY the jap said this on concept for relics

I mean...the lance tbf monarch it didn't change at all for 8000+ years AFAIK just saying...again i said the experts are better to ask on KKK cause that's where it really came from IIRC. The rest idk but soul ressurection maybe due to not having enough power at the time again 7/8 isn't everything but idk

Immortality is still type 1 tbh just they will be missing souls for armor but again idk

Sorry not being so helpful just trying to give as much as I can remember exams and shit >_>
 
Beatrice outspeeding the spear is probably PIS given that distance ignoring or not, Reinhard would still throw it FTL/FTL+ speed. Just pointing out this, will wait for other opinions for the other stuff.
 
Later I'll find the scan where Rusalka's Briah is said to be conceptual and Eleonore's Briah and Relic burns the concept of "escaping,"
 
@Kal Wasn't Reinhard, that was Valerian throwing it. And unlike Rindou's spear, Valerian's is definitely the same one with the same properties.

@Schro, 99% sure "consuming the very concept of running" is hyperbole. He's not God Cell Mode yet. Same with Eleonore's burning the concept of escape. You need to be careful as to what is simply referring to concepts as in "the very idea of escaping", and what is referring to "the fundamental constant of the universe that allows things to escape"

@Red, no, their own personal souls will self-destruct after 100/300 years. That is why Rusulka is so worried. Why would she be worried if she could just keep eating other people's souls to stay alive?
 
eleonore is more to like you can't get out once her briah is on because you are inside the rail gun.

Also beatrice is the fastest of the regular members sans ren in briah and commanders + rein and merc (Eleonore was toying with beatrice anyway she didn't take her seriously at all and got hit because eleonore got distracted)
 
@Red Eleonore is stated by the narration to be unable to exceed Beatrice's speed and is only winning because she knows exactly how Beatrice will attack from her experience, but that's just another one of DI's inconsistencies.
 
though the fact is machina was the one who intercepted Ren's briah + cain's lighting (with the former freezing lighting in his perspective so...)
 
Machina's entire existence is PIS that allows for hyperscaling and I hate it. I wish I could MVS him.
 
Okay lets see about this

1-Reinhard's Weaknesses : Seems fine

2-Hadou God Weaknesses : This is little wrong, it's not point of Reinhard can't use his full power unless against Merc, it's because IT IS snake he can use this much of power, okay this may not make much sense let me explain

Normally Reinhard Taikyoku count is 80 but when fighting Snake he goes up to 90 simply because he is Snake Apoptosis so naturally he scale to whatever Snake count is, under normal condition if he fought another god as powerful as Snake he would get stomped

When Apoptosis attack the god who created him he also destroy himself which is why Reinhard was doomed to be destroyed when he fought Snake and why he can't kill him

3-Trifa Power Addition : Fine

4-Briah Weaknesses : fine

5-Reinhard's Soul Resurrection : I dunno

6-LDO Immortality : I really not sure about this, I always viewed their immortality to be Iffy because they keep saying they want immortality

7-Reinhard's Type 8 Immortality : With Hajun he just brake Snake's law and can do whatever he want, when Ren killed him in maire route he actually came back later and still have the potential to be the golden beast, to be honest I think you CAN kill him for sometime but he will come back sometime later and it seems Snake can choose when he comes back, so while you can kill him he can't get rid of him for good so i think type 8 should stay

If i am not wrong this whole rule came from KKK not DI, where Rindou came back to life simply because she's Habaki's Apoptosis, tbh I don't remember any line in DI that suggest the Apoptosis thing so yeah most likely it came from KKK

8-Spears ignoring distance : I will just leave for other users to replay on this part but I do believe LLT can ignore distance
 
@ZERO

6 - that's exactly what I'm saying, how can we listed them as having immortality if their desire for the immortality they don't have is a main plot point?

7 - Reinhard only came back because Marie's Law allows for reincarnation. If it had been a Law like Mercs or Ren's, his soul would be destroyed.
 
1. Meh I'm fine

2. what Zero said

3. Fine

4. Alright I guess

5. Again maybe since he wasn't at all 8 he couldn't ressurect immediately

6. @zero I think it's more on eternal victory that lasts? Idk

7. It's from KKK AFAIK DI made it vague and unlike rea route reinhard will never be the beast again but in Marie he could be

8. KKK again

Monarch read jap OVO and Machina is probably doing the laugh he did in marie route when you said you want to MVS him :p
 
Rindou straight up doesn't die, that's how her Apoptosis immortality works. Reinhard actually dies, and yet you guys are trying to say that although he came back in a world that is literally governed by Goddess making people reincarnate, he actually came back because he's an Apoptosis?
 
Yeah It's bullshit and it seems the author came with the whole thing in KKK but since both games set in the same universe it should apply to the others
 
Right, I'm just going to point out (again) that KKK is governed by a completely difference Law, and I'm also going to point out (for the first time) that KKK is non-canon and Masada could do whatever the hell he wants in KKK without it affecting DI
 
Hajuns law actually causes complete erasure at death. There is no afterlife.

And Rindou came back.

DI plot is full of PIS, so It's obvious that Reinhard would die/lose in every route.

Reinhard died when he killed Merc in Rea Route, proofing that his very existence is sustained by Merc's.
 
80 at ending 1 ending 2 90 due to fighting merc and awakened apoptosis rein evenly. AFAIK
 
@Schro, Reinhard dies if Merc dies, that does not mean that Reinhard will always live as long as Merc lives. I covered that in the original post.
 
His usual count is 80, he only get 90 in three colors and he's still little weaker than Snake and Beast
 
Monarch Laciel said:
Right, I'm just going to point out (again) that KKK is governed by a completely difference Law, and I'm also going to point out (for the first time) that KKK is non-canon and Masada could do whatever the hell he wants in KKK without it affecting DI
No way LOL

Most of the info we have on this wiki is from KKK and it's data book, KKK gave more lore and world building A LOT more than DI
 
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