Diavolo vs Ikki

[Starter_Pack]

Not really. If Diavolo can wait out Ittou Shura, which only lasts roughly 60 seconds, then Ikki would become vulnerable and Diavolo could make quick work of him.

 

[Tincan123]

Ittou Shura (õ©ÇÕêÇõ┐«þ¥à lit.,"Single-bladed shura"): Ikki's Noble Art, it temporarily removes Ikki of all his physical limits, allowing him to gain tremendous power but it can only be used for a minute. It boosts his stats sans durability by a factor of 10.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Does Ittou Shura counts as a speed amp?

 

[Starter_Pack]

Technically, but Ittou Shura is the key Ikki starts with, and speed is equalized. So, the speed gained by Ittou Shura ends up getting equalized with Diavolo's speed.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not really. If Diavolo can wait out Ittou Shura, which only lasts roughly 60 seconds, then Ikki would become vulnerable and Diavolo could make quick work of him.

With trackless step into the equation Diavolo wouldn't survive those 60 seconds. I mean he'd literally have to fight an invisible (unable to be percepted by the senses rather than actually invisible) dude who can 1 shot him, he cannot do "anything" to and who is far more skilled tha himself. Not to mention Ittou Raisetsu is in there as well which means he also has the speed blitz option among his other secret swords (with duplication and stuff). The moment time skip is down so is Diavolo. And remember that the time limit is the real time (without counting the erased time).

Imma vote Ikki for these reasons.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If Ikki's durability is High 8-C then this is a stomp, since Diavolo would take ages to cause some damage, while Ikki would need to attack just once.

Nah not a stomp due to the time limit.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

unable to be percepted by senses

Yeah, but Diavolo dont sense things, he predict them, seeing 10 secs in the future.

 

[Starter_Pack]

If Ikki's about to get an upgrade in Durability, then I will change my vote to Ikki.

But I'm still concerned that Diavolo could basically "outrun" Ikki by spamming Crimson King until Ittou Shura runs out.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

" It boosts his stats sans durability by a factor of 10."

If you know English/French, you'd be able to translate it to "It boosts his stats by a factor of 10 but not durability."

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

If Ikki's about to get an upgrade in Durability, then I will change my vote to Ikki.
But I'm still concerned that Diavolo could basically "outrun" Ikki by spamming Crimson King until Ittou Shura runs out.

Indeed, with Epitath he would see how fast and dangerous Ikki is and would proceed to use KC spam.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

unable to be percepted by senses
Yeah, but Diavolo dont sense things, he predict them, seeing 10 secs in the future.

He will see 10 secs in the future. Yes. He will "see" that's the key word. If he cannot "see" "hear" or "notice" someone at all, precog won't help you that much. If you can't "notice" him now, what makes you think 10 secs in the future would be better?

 

[Axl233]

its not really a stomp unless Ikki is very high into High 8C,Diavolo AP comes being able to one shot people scale to 1 tons(almost bordeline Hogh 8C),he can still hurt Ikki.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If Ikki's about to get an upgrade in Durability, then I will change my vote to Ikki.
But I'm still concerned that Diavolo could basically "outrun" Ikki by spamming Crimson King until Ittou Shura runs out.

That's the thing. KC would just stall at best, but it won't help, as it won't decrease the time limit on Ittou Shura. As soon as the time skip ends, Ikki can just ittou raisetsu and completely obliterate him while he's still in shock, before he puts up the 2nd time skip.

Anyway that's 2 for Ikki.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

its not really a stomp unless Ikki is very high into High 8C,Diavolo AP comes being able to one shot people scale to 1 tons(almost bordeline Hogh 8C),he can still hurt Ikki.

Yeah...Ikki is "at least 8-C" though. So yeah AP wise Ikki is FAR superior but he has the time limit, so King Crimson can still win if he can fight him off for 60 seconds real time. But fighting off someone who's like 10x stronger, unfathomably more skilled, unable to be percepted by the senses and who becomes 100x stronger than you and at least 10x faster is too much of a stretch.

 

[Axl233]

But he still has epitaph,he can see himself getting smacked by ikki and hide and wait for a opportunity to attack or maybe turn Into Doppio as a disguise.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But he still has epitaph,he can see himself getting smacked by ikki and hide and wait for a opportunity to attack or maybe turn Into Doppio as a disguise.

He won't be able to see or even avoid Ikki though.

Match starts:

He sees 10 second into the future, sees that he's dead. There is no one else around, no one he can percept at least.

Seeing into the future doesn't mean you have the means of avoiding that future. If i had infinite precog i still wouldn't be able to beat Goku for example cus there is "no way" i can do anything about that, avoid, protect or attack him. Same here, Ikki is much stronger, faster, skilled and has his same ability (precog, insight etc). Time Skip here is useless as it does not contribute to the waiting.

Again being that much of a better fighter i'd say Ikki takes this pretty decisively. He is High 8-C for 60 secs, is hard to percept and his a stronger fighter. Furthermore he can become a 8-B being 10x faster than Diavolo and keeping his skills which can allow for a blitz.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

If both Epitath and Time Erasure are useless then Diavolo don't have any win condition here.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I mean...he still does. It's just a lot more unlikely now.

Considering the reasons explained beforehand, it isn't really a stomp.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If both Epitath and King Crimson are useless then Diavolo don't have any win condition here.

Not that they are useless. More like they can't make up for the difference in skill, speed and AP. And yes Diavolo does have a win condition, he borderline stomps if he waits out the duration. He just doesn't have enough skill to do so.

So it's pretty decisive for Ikki since there are not many ways to argue Diavolo can stall for the duration, but it's not a stomp as Diavolo does have a win condition.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Well, then Im switching my vote for Ikki.

(Will Diavolo finally get a defeat in this wiki?)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well, then Im switching my vote for Ikki.
(Will Diavolo finally get a defeat in this wiki?)

That's 3 for Ikki.

(And against someone as fodder as Ikki xD, don't worry though Ikki will gain some serious boost later on, with fate manipulation and either Acausality type 4 or Immunity to fate manipulation, but that's for way later on)

Btw just remember that Ikki beat Amane Shinomiya, someone who's FAR more haxed than Diavolo.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Seems like it.

(Next, we must attempt to get Joseph Joestar a loss as well.)

 

[Axl233]

What you described is not a win condition at all,there is no way he can avoid for 1 minute getting one shotted eveen with epitaph or time erasure since ikki starts 10x faster then him.


SO R.I.P, stomp fra.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

(Next, we must attempt to get Joseph Joestar a loss as well.)

(Throw him at base Ikki)

 

[Starter_Pack]

What you described is not a win condition at all,there is no way he can avoid for 1 minute getting one shotted eveen with epitaph or time erasure since ikki starts 10x faster then him.


SO R.I.P, stomp fra.

There is no speed advantage. As I said before, Ikki's speed has been equalized from Ittou Shura. In fact, that means he'll be 10X slower than Diavolo once Ittou Shura runs out.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

King Crimson, unlike the other Jojo time Stands, is fully spammable with no cooldowns. If he can't see what's happening, he'll spam time erase and gtfo the area and hide.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What you described is not a win condition at all,there is no way he can avoid for 1 minute getting one shotted eveen with epitaph or time erasure since ikki starts 10x faster then him.
SO R.I.P, stomp fra.

Again it is "not" a stomp. A stomp is when either:

a) A passive is involved

b) The opponent, no matter what cannot ever hope to be able to kill or put an end to someone. (Either through some form of immortality or other hax)

This is not either as Ikki's "invincibility" lasts only for 1 minute. If Diavolo can beat the timer it's 100% his win as after Ittou Shura Ikki will be barely able to stay on his feat.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

King Crimson, unlike the other Jojo time Stands, is fully spammable with no cooldowns. If he can't see what's happening, he'll spam time erase and gtfo the area and hide.

There are several problems with that:

1) Hiding won't do you much good as ikki fought an invisible opponent in a forest, there is no concievable way for Diavolo to hide without being found out by Ikki.

2) When has it ever been in character for Diavolo to just spam KC and run the hell out of there? You can't assume that'll be his 1st move, if he's never done that in character.

3) Spamming KC would require thoughts which can be blitzed if Ikki gets into Ittou Raisetsu.

4) You still forget that he cannot sense or see Ikki at all. It'll be like fighting an invisible dude who's much stronger and way more skilled than you.

I still stand to my word that this is pretty decisive for Ikki.

 

[PaChi2]

Why did this show in my notifications

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Why did this show in my notifications

Must be the work of an enemy Stand.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Why did this show in my notifications

Our lord works in mysterious ways.

Well you're here, you might as well vote.

 

[Overlord775]

HTF is Diavolo supposed to stall for 1 minute if he can't EVEN detect nor harm his opponent and gets blitzed before he can even think ?

saying that he has even a slight chance of winning is dumb

This is a hard stomp

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He still has a win condition. It doesn't fall into the stomp category.

Limbo vs Beiloune as a currently ongoing case. Limbo will ALWAYS be slower than Beiloune and both 1 shot. Still fair though, it's not that Limbo "can't" win, but more that he "won't" win, due to the speed difference (even though Limbo has no way to win, he still has a win condition should he somehow get past that).

Same case here. It's not that Diavolo "can't" win, but more that he "won't" win due to the AP gap. Also the blitz is a 1 time thing. Ikki becomes that fast for a single attack then it wears off (ittou shura wears off). So if Diavolo can survive Ittou Raisetsu (which he cannot) he can win without waiting the 1 minute gap (though Ittou Raisetsu is faster than anything he will try to do so he won't be able to survive Ittou Raisetsu).

So the fight goes like this:

Fight starts, Ikki goes for trackless step ittou raisetsu, Diavolo dies.

Though in a case where Diavolo would survive that one IR (Ittou Raisetsu) hit, he would win.

Again, not a stomp, just decisive.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

How tf does Ikki blitz faster than Diavolo can think? Hiding works because it gives him time to react and skip time again. Ikki also loses 10 seconds every skip, so 6 skips means that Ikki is beyond exhausted.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

How tf does Ikki blitz faster than Diavolo can think? Hiding works because it gives him time to react and skip time again. Ikki also loses 10 seconds every skip, so 6 skips means that Ikki is beyond exhausted.

1. Via Ittou Raisetsu

2. Hiding "won't" work. As i said Ikki could find and fight an invisible dude in a whole forest full of trees.

3. Time Skip don't take time off Ittou Shura since Ikki is inactive in those moments so from his perspective it's just an ordinary time stop.

4. How will Diavolo even see Ikki in the first place? I mean fight starts, he doesn't see anything...like at all, he doesn't notice Ikki there, why would he time skip?

 

[Overlord775]

@Fire

There's no scenerio where Diavolo will be able to survive that one IR

 

[TacticalNuke002]

How exactly does Ittou Raisetsu counter precog+time erase?

I am not saying Diavolo is a stealth master. Hiding gives him a miniscule amount of breathing space for precog, after which he can time erase again. Precog isn't even needed for time erase, so he can time erase spam anyway.

Time erase literally erases 10 seconds of space-time. Ikki needs some kind of Acausality to retain his time.

Diavolo can see himself die, and react.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Fire
There's no scenerio where Diavolo will be able to survive that one IR

Yeah doesn't mean it's a stomp. Because it is really unlikely for Diavolo to survive that one IR, but it's not a passive that's killing Diavolo. If Diavolo could use his time skip and precog just right in this case he would be able to avoid the one IR, but the speed and trackless step makes it hard for him to do that.

It's just decisive for Ikki. It doesn't fit under our stomp rules.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

By being fast enough to blitz.

It won't help.

Ikki may gain acausality soon, but that's for another time. It's PRECISELY because Ikki will not keep his time that IS won't be consumed, if Ikki did keep his time IS would be consumed. IS lasts for only 60 seconds cus that's how much Ikki's stamina and mana capacity can keep him. If he has 10 seconds stolen, then who cares? He's not moving, acting or consuming mana inside the time skip, therefore the IS time limit won't go down, as Ikki is not getting tired.

React to what exactly? An invisible dude? Yeah he sees himself die, though he sees no culprit ANYWHERE, not here, not either in the future. Why would he time skip, and even if he does time skip where would he go? He may time skip like once and hide somewhere he won't be continuously hiding as he has no idea about the whereabouts of Ikki. The "he continuously hides" argument is flawed by the very fact that that's not how mindset works. If i tell you "today you're gonna die", will you keep change your hiding place every 4 seconds? No, cus you are going to die, you don't know the cause, the culprit or the wherebouts of the person who's going to kill you. Literally 0 knowledge.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

If he has 10 seconds stolen, then who cares? He's not moving, acting or consuming mana inside the time skip, therefore the IS time limit won't go down, as Ikki is not getting tired

Are you sure? King Crimson ability makes people move even if they have never thought to make such a move before the time skip.