Destroyers trying to make history

[ChoursDropoff]

The Upgrade is quite simple. We see that a battle between 2 GoD will passively lead to the annihilation of both their universes. Which house multiple time spaces.

The Universe themselves are constantly referred to as a different history’s, the same as the parallel worlds that make up the multiverse.








This the Hakaishin have Historical Existence Exasure

Beerus states he can erase gods from existence from existence. Without causing splits in the timeline. This is opposition to how time travel works in DB.

The important part is that we care about is that it’s blatantly shown and stated that gods can affect history without making alternate parallel worlds. Beerus even gets questioned by Trunks in regards to Zamasu and if he got erased, to which he confirmed that he erased every version of him (excluding the ones with time rings) which is a limited version of causality manipulation



EDIT: the time rings would also qualify for type 4 accasuality under this.


Who would be affected?

All the GoD

Hakai users like Vegeta (manga) Toppo and Granolah. Gas

The Grand Priest (manga)

Most versions Zamasu excluding fusion Zamasu anime.



Agree: Ryzen7900X, LuffyRuffy46307, Killerdrone123, AizenBankai09,Gamin_Yoon23
Spinoirr, LordDestroit10K, AwkguyDB, TheGodOfICE777, GodSinBad2280, Robo432343, ScalingRandomVerse, 57Dev, LephyrTheRevanchist, Elizhaa

DarkDragonMedeus​

Disagree: Hasty12345, omegabronic

Neutral:

Damage3245,​

DarkDragonMedeus(leaning towards agreement)​

 

[Ryzen7900X]

seems pretty blatant to me. one question I have though is, didnt Whis say Beerus created a parallel timeline when he erased Zamasu? the same one Whis went to in order to have Trunks and Mai settle there?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I completely agree with you

 

[Killerdrone123]

Sweet I agree

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Not directly his actions lead to Zamasu making a new time ring.

 

[RoninSlayer200]

blatant enough, I agree with this crt

 

[Deleted member 40688]

I don't see it tbh. Neutral

 

[AizenBankai09]

seems reasonable, I agree!

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah Zamasu only survived bc of the time ring

 

[RenderGK]

The line that Trunks went to was not the line that made Bills

according to whis they would go to a line equal to Trunks' future, where Trunks and Mai would exist equal to them, before black arrives. and he would wake up bills to eliminate it.

It is not the line that created bills

seems pretty blatant to me. one question I have though is, didnt Whis say Beerus created a parallel timeline when he erased Zamasu? the same one Whis went to in order to have Trunks and Mai settle there?

 

[Spinoirr]

List me for agree and Gas would also get this due to him also using hakais

 

[omegabronic]

The Upgrade is quite simple. We see that a battle between 2 GoD will passively lead to the annihilation of both their universes. Which house multiple time spaces.

The Universe themselves are constantly referred to as a different history’s, the same as the parallel worlds that make up the multiverse.

Exept they can't be the same as paralell worlds that make up the multiverse are forbidden from even being created, and they are compossed of 12 universes, so, while you can say they are other space times with other histories, they can't be the same as the parallel timelines by.....logic alone of what said timelines are in the first place, i don't think this changes much in this point tho

This the Hakaishin have Historical Existence Exasure

THey are.....destroying the universes with AP tho.....where's the Erasure hax from that?

Beerus states he can erase gods from existence from existence. Without causing splits in the timeline. This is opposition to how time travel works in DB.

I mean.....Time Ring with acausality type 1 doesn't take away your pressent from existing, even if you are immune from changes to your past or your future, your present is as much vunerable to be erased, if someone history wipes you then type 1 will be useless to protecting you, now if you upgraded TR acausality to type 4 or 2 then it could work

The important part is that we care about is that it’s blatantly shown and stated that gods can affect history without making alternate parallel worlds. Beerus even gets questioned by Trunks in regards to Zamasu and if he got erased, to which he confirmed that he erased every version of him (excluding the ones with time rings) which is a limited version of causality manipulation

Thing is......Beerus is talking gods in general not about Hakai or GoD specifically.....therefore as you said, this would be causalitu manip for gods in DB, including Kais, Angels, Zeno, etc

Altho that "this is your mortal logic" seems to imply to me that they work in a different system/logic from mortals, which sounds like Acausality type 4 to me

Also why are you using the manga and anime of DBS alongside one another when it was very much decided that they are different continuities from one another?

 

[Killerdrone123]

Exept they can't be the same as paralell worlds that make up the multiverse are forbidden from even being created, and they are compossed of 12 universes, so, while you can say they are other space times with other histories, they can't be the same as the parallel timelines by.....logic alone of what said timelines are in the first place, i don't think this changes much in this point tho


THey are.....destroying the universes with AP tho.....where's the Erasure hax from that?


I mean.....Time Ring with acausality type 1 doesn't take away your pressent from existing, even if you are immune from changes to your past or your future, your present is as much vunerable to be erased, if someone history wipes you then type 1 will be useless to protecting you, now if you upgraded TR acausality to type 4 or 2 then it could work


Thing is......Beerus is talking gods in general not about Hakai or GoD specifically.....therefore as you said, this would be causalitu manip for gods in DB, including Kais, Angels, Zeno, etc

Altho that "this is your mortal logic" seems to imply to me that they work in a different system/logic from mortals, which sounds like Acausality type 4 to me

Also why are you using the manga and anime of DBS alongside one another when it was very much decided that they are different continuities from one another?

He is applying revision for both that's why

 

[Killerdrone123]

Exept they can't be the same as paralell worlds that make up the multiverse are forbidden from even being created, and they are compossed of 12 universes, so, while you can say they are other space times with other histories, they can't be the same as the parallel timelines by.....logic alone of what said timelines are in the first place, i don't think this changes much in this point tho

Idk what you mean by that but he is arguing that the u7 and u6 have there own history aka there own past, present and future which makes sense as macrocosm are accepted as having there own time dimension/axis also they are there own separate space times if hakai is affecting these space times it is history type ee

 

[omegabronic]

He is applying revision for both that's why

Ok but...........that doesn't really answer my question? Like, if they are different continuities, then the evidence for one can't be used for the other and vice versa, wouldn't be better to just seoarated the evidence for both and then try to apply to them with their individual evidences? Like, we can't use Anime scans for Manga chars for example, this just seems more work than it would be needed

Idk what you mean by that but he is arguing that the u7 and u6 have there own history aka there own past, present and future which makes sense as macrocosm are accepted as having there own time dimension/axis

Yeah? Him saying they are the same as the timelines that hold 12 of those make no sense regardless of that tho

also they are there own separate space times if hakai is affecting these space times it is history type ee

Exept......they were going to do that with AP tho, at least for the anime

 

[Killerdrone123]

Ok but...........that doesn't really answer my question? Like, if they are different continuities, then the evidence for one can't be used for the other and vice versa, wouldn't be better to just seoarated the evidence for both and then try to apply to them with their individual evidences? Like, we can't use Anime scans for Manga chars for example, this just seems more work than it would be needed


Yeah? Him saying they are the same as the timelines that hold 12 of those make no sense regardless of that tho


Exept......they were going to do that with AP tho, at least for the anime

We literally see a panel of them using hakai to destroy both the universes in manga also we literally see them emitting hakai aura in the background when they were going to destroy the universes

He is just applying it to both of them for manga he is using the manga scans for anime he is using the beerus and champa fight video

 

[RedReaper616]

Wait, wouldn’t this just be Acausality Type 4? Since it’s specifically Beerus (a god) attacking another god (Goku Black/Zamasu) working on different rules on space and time than mortals? Wherein they naturally cause BTTF Time Travel issues compared to, say, Avengers Endgame Time Travel issues?

 

[omegabronic]

We literally see a panel of them using hakai to destroy both the universes in manga also we literally see them emitting hakai aura in the background when they were going to destroy the universes

Actually we didn't
They were just......punching eachother, there is no Hakai aura arround them or anything like that, plus Hakai doesn't erase things willy nilly without the user wanting it to, and even then to things they want to erase, such as when the GoD's aura didn't erase the arena when they were fighting on it and actuvely touching and blasting it with it
1:27

Or when Toppo was standing on it with his Hakai aura and the Arena wasn't erased even with a direct blast of it hitting said arena


Heck, toppo himself comfirms this with freeza, he said he didn't erased him because then he would be eliminated, even when he hit him directly with Hakai, implying that he could have erased him if he wanted, showing that a GoD can control if Destruction Energy erases something or not

I don't see why Beerus and Champa would have wanted to erase their Universes with Hakai instead of eachother, Hakai boosts one's power as well after all as seen with Toppo, so they could just as easily tapped into it for a power up, specially since they know a GoD resists hakai in the first place

He is just applying it to both of them for manga he is using the manga scans for anime he is using the beerus and champa fight video

the wording here is confusing, are you saying he isn't using manga exclussive evidence for the anime or are saying he is? Can you reword this a little better?

 

[Killerdrone123]

Actually we didn't
They were just......punching eachother, there is no Hakai aura arround them or anything like that, plus Hakai doesn't erase things willy nilly without the user wanting it to, and even then to things they want to erase, such as when the GoD's aura didn't erase the arena when they were fighting on it and actuvely touching and blasting it with it
1:27

Or when Toppo was standing on it with his Hakai aura and the Arena wasn't erased even with a direct blast of it hitting said arena


Heck, toppo himself comfirms this with freeza, he said he didn't erased him because then he would be eliminated, even when he hit him directly with Hakai, implying that he could have erased him if he wanted, showing that a GoD can control if Destruction Energy erases something or not

I don't see why Beerus and Champa would have wanted to erase their Universes with Hakai instead of eachother, Hakai boosts one's power as well after all as seen with Toppo, so they could just as easily tapped into it for a power up, specially since they know a GoD resists hakai in the first place


the wording here is confusing, are you saying he isn't using manga exclussive evidence for the anime or are saying he is? Can you reword this a little better?

Broski he is using different scene lol just look up we literally see hakai aura you know what this scene further proves that they were using hakai in there first clash

 

[omegabronic]

Wait, wouldn’t this just be Acausality Type 4? Since it’s specifically Beerus (a god) attacking another god (Goku Black/Zamasu) working on different rules on space and time than mortals? Wherein they naturally cause BTTF Time Travel issues compared to, say, Avengers Endgame Time Travel issues?

YEah, that is what i said, it seems to fit

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

In fact, that purple aura from Beerus is his passive destruction energy when the Gods fight each other, so much so that that energy was corroding the ground, just like hakai does, turning everything to dust.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Actually we didn't
They were just......punching eachother, there is no Hakai aura arround them or anything like that, plus Hakai doesn't erase things willy nilly without the user wanting it to, and even then to things they want to erase, such as when the GoD's aura didn't erase the arena when they were fighting on it and actuvely touching and blasting it with it
1:27

Or when Toppo was standing on it with his Hakai aura and the Arena wasn't erased even with a direct blast of it hitting said arena


Heck, toppo himself comfirms this with freeza, he said he didn't erased him because then he would be eliminated, even when he hit him directly with Hakai, implying that he could have erased him if he wanted, showing that a GoD can control if Destruction Energy erases something or not

I don't see why Beerus and Champa would have wanted to erase their Universes with Hakai instead of eachother, Hakai boosts one's power as well after all as seen with Toppo, so they could just as easily tapped into it for a power up, specially since they know a GoD resists hakai in the first place


the wording here is confusing, are you saying he isn't using manga exclussive evidence for the anime or are saying he is? Can you reword this a little better?

Actually we saw that with the official coloring that it was hakai aura not just ap.

 

[omegabronic]

Broski he is using different scene lol just look up we literally see hakai aura

yeah.....which we don't see the after effect when the fight would have destroyed the Universe, as seen with their second fight, hakai isn't what destroys it, it their own AP clashing that does it

there isn't much to say that thr hakai would be the thing destroying the universe, would be weird for them to even choose to aim their hakai to erase the universes instead of aiming it at eachother

you know what this scene further proves thatthey were using hakai in there first clash

Huh? I don't see how tho?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Wait, wouldn’t this just be Acausality Type 4? Since it’s specifically Beerus (a god) attacking another god (Goku Black/Zamasu) working on different rules on space and time than mortals? Wherein they naturally cause BTTF Time Travel issues compared to, say, Avengers Endgame Time Travel issues?

That’s not the argument of the regeneration I’m making maybe for the time ring.

 

[Killerdrone123]

yeah.....which we don't see the after effect when the fight would have destroyed the Universe, as seen with their second fight, hakai isn't what destroys it, it their own AP clashing that does it

there isn't much to say that thr hakai would be the thing destroying the universe, would be weird for them to even choose to aim their hakai to erase the universes instead of aiming it at eachother


Huh? I don't see how tho?

We literally see the aura expanding whis and vados stopped them before they could procede to do any more damage like actually see the scene further

 

[omegabronic]

Actually we saw that with the official coloring that it was hakai aura not just ap.

In the anime is clearly their AP no Hakai at all in their more violent clash, for the manga? Meh, dunno, i don't think they have the same context of "Hakai only works and erases what and if the GoD chooses" that the anime does, i suppose it would be fine for the manga?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

We literally see the aura expanding whis and vados stopped them before they could procede to do any more damage like actually see the scene further

Yeah same for the manga

 

[ChoursDropoff]

In the anime is clearly their AP no Hakai at all in their more violent clash, for the manga? Meh, dunno, i don't think they have the same context of "Hakai only works and erases what and if the GoD chooses" that the anime does, i suppose it would be fine for the manga?

You’re not even using the correct scene bro it’s the same in the anime lol.

 

[omegabronic]

That’s not the argument of the regeneration I’m making maybe for the time ring.

He is asking about it maybe being acausality type 4, he didn't mentioned regeneration

In fact, that purple aura from Beerus is his passive destruction energy when the Gods fight each other, so much so that that energy was corroding the ground, just like hakai does, turning everything to dust.

exept that Hakai doesn't do that? It isn't passive to all things, i gave examples that show this

We literally see the aura expanding whis and vados stopped them before they could procede to do any more damage like actually see the scene further

I did, i am talking about their second clash, but yeah, they were liberating Hakai in their first clash.....we don't know if they would still be doing that if the battle proceeded tho, nor if it would have been the Hakai destroying the universe instead of their own AP, the second clash for example has 0 Hakai and the Universes were still about to end, if that is an example of how their Universe destruction fight plays out, then we can assert for certain that Hakai isn't what does it

 

[omegabronic]

You’re not even using the correct scene bro it’s the same in the anime lol.

I am using the scene you are using in conjunction with another scene.............what is the problem?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I am using the scene you are using in conjunction with another scene.............what is the problem?

Because the one your using is completely unrelated so i question why even bring it up?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Because the one your using is completely unrelated so i question why even bring it up?

Plus we don’t even see them go all out they’re stopped before that can happen.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I am using the scene you are using in conjunction with another scene.............what is the problem?

Omega, you are not using the right scene, simple as that, see the scene placed in the Op and stop bringing things that have nothing to do with it (just watch the scene, where the energy of destruction starts to spread across the floor and the floor starts to look the same when the hakai is used)

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

I agree with the CRT

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Alright, seems y'all pretty much made your arguments and are starting to go in circles. Gimme a bit and I'll call staff before you start flooding the thread.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

exept that Hakai doesn't do that? It isn't passive to all things, i gave examples that show this

Their examples don't help you at all, see when they are serious, their energy of destruction expands across the floor and the whole floor looks like hakai.

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah same for the manga

in the manga we don't really see that, at least, we have no evidence if they are using Hakai as a erasing technique or if they are using purely as an energy technique for more power, which is possible and seen a lot in the Anime....altho the DBS Manga's Hakai may differently where it doesn't have said control that the anime has, would need to see scans of that to confirm, if it doesn't then again, i guess it would be fine

Because the one your using is completely unrelated so i question why even bring it up?

it isn't tho? in the first scene, we saw the begining of a fight, in the second, we see how an actual fight between them actually plays out, aka how they would actually destroy the universe have their battle continued on.......in which we see that "Erasure" Hakai is not a factor at all, besides as i pointed out, Hakai only erases things that the user wants to erase, so unless you are saying that Beerus and Champa actively wanted to erase both of their universes instead of each other.....then the arguments sounds a little weird

Plus we don’t even see them go all out they’re stopped before that can happen.

except we do see them going all out, on screen, seeing what happens if they were to continue

Omega, you are not using the right scene, simple as that, see the scene placed in the Op and stop bringing things that have nothing to do with it (just watch the scene, where the energy of destruction starts to spread across the floor and the floor starts to look the same when the hakai is used)

in one we only see the beginning of them punching each other, the other scene shows what would have happened if they continued, i am using the right scene that shows HOW a fight between GoD destroy universes, maybe they do use some "Erasure" Hakai, but we clearly see that it is not what ends up destroying the universes

Their examples don't help you at all, see when they are serious, their energy of destruction expands across the floor and the whole floor looks like hakai.

we see when they are serious.........have you watched the clip i linked?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The Upgrade is quite simple. We see that a battle between 2 GoD will passively lead to the annihilation of both their universes. Which house multiple time spaces.

The Universe themselves are constantly referred to as a different history’s, the same as the parallel worlds that make up the multiverse.








This the Hakaishin have Historical Existence Exasure

Beerus states he can erase gods from existence from existence. Without causing splits in the timeline. This is opposition to how time travel works in DB.

The important part is that we care about is that it’s blatantly shown and stated that gods can affect history without making alternate parallel worlds. Beerus even gets questioned by Trunks in regards to Zamasu and if he got erased, to which he confirmed that he erased every version of him (excluding the ones with time rings) which is a limited version of causality manipulation






Who would be affected?

All the GoD

Hakai users like Vegeta (manga) Toppo and Granolah. Gas

The Grand Priest (manga)

Most versions Zamasu excluding fusion Zamasu anime.



Agree: Ryzen7900X, LuffyRuffy46307, Killerdrone123, AizenBankai09,Gamin_Yoon23
Spinoirr,

Disagree:

Neutral: ScalingRandomVerse

Spoiler: Le funni

Come to me, my X-Men!

@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Planck69 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Elizhaa @Damage3245 @Maverick_Zero_X @Everything12 @Qawsedf234 @Antvasima @Deagonx

Ya know the drill! Feel free to ignore if ya want!

So OP argues since the worlds are stated to contain their own individual histories and that GoD through fighting can erase them (with their main fighting seeming to showcase hakai energy), means hakai should work on a History level. To support this, OP also brings Beerus erasing Zamasu, a scene which explicitly violate how Dragon Ball time travel shenanigans work, as these kind of changes shouldn't have generated an alternate timeline (yet it sorta did through Zamasu having a time ring, indicating that without it, he would've been completely erased without interfering in the timeline stuff).

Omega brings up a scene where two GoDs fighting do not always generate this hakai energy yet are still able to erase their respective universes, thus it's a feature of their power and not Hakai having history erasure hax. Furthermore, an alternative explanation is given by RedReaper regarding the Zamasu scene suggesting instead that the gods follow their own rules, and a god killing another god don't interfere with the normal causality of the universes thus falls under Acausality Type 4.

Me personally, I'm completely neutral here. These type of metaphysical/abstract haxes are always very prone to have case-by-case rulings even among our standards, so I can understand the belief that likely Hakai applies to have history-level erasure. The only thing I disagree with Omega currently is the initial fight not showcasing the hakai energy. Besides that, I prefer leaving it to our experts.

 

[omegabronic]

The only thing I disagree with Omega currently is the initial fight not showcasing the hakai energy. Besides that, I prefer leaving it to our experts.

i never said that tho, i said that as shown by their second fight, when they get serious their hakai energy's erasure plays no role in them destroying the universes seen as how nothing was erased when they did that in said fight

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

i never said that tho, i said that as shown by their second fight, when they get serious their hakai energy's erasure plays no role in them destroying the universes seen as how nothing was erased when they did that in said fight

Apologies for the misunderstanding then.

But ultimately, I don't think that matters too much. The initial scene does seem to showcase the hakai energy, so I'd say, if we do accept hakai as having history-level erasure (which I think the Zamasu point does provide greater support there), GoDs simply have power to do both.

But again, I'm overall neutral here.