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Neutral here, but Mr Bambu is spot on. But Wokistan is our Destiny guy yes.
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@Mr._Bambu
Okay.
I have asked DMUA if the speed feat can be calculated. If he doesn't answer today I'll ask some other calc group members too.
Okay.
They don't have FTL travel speed, so I doubt they traveled across the entire planet during their fight. Although I understand your skepticism, I don't see how Ikora could change Mars' atmosphere and glass its sands with her currently listed range of only hundreds of meters. Besides Mars' circumference is 21,344 km, so she wouldn't be able to affect the entirety of Mars from any position on it. If you still don't agree, what do you propose their range should be instead?
As for intelligence, is this also the case for a single genius being capable of all of that? Because she has expertise on the level of a genius in multiple fields. And as I said I can search for more feats.
I'm not entirely sure I follow. Just traveling to the Ascendant Plane would only be Dimensional Travel yes, but Taken use the exact same method of transportation both for traveling to the Plane and traveling throughout it.
I assume you are referring to removing one of Riven's weaknesses. Apologies for not listing evidence. I rushed the OP slightly and ended up listing things in a way that only knowledgeable members can fully understand. Here it's stated she can feed on someone's desire to kill her. This confirmed again here. Here someone just gets wishes things were like they used to be for a moment and pays the price. There's a lot more, but I'm not sure what kind of evidence you exactly want.
Okay.
Well him being more intelligent than random Wizards would already put him in the Genius range. On top of that a vast understanding on the universe's workings is quite impressive and seems comparable to the requirement of having knowledge which spreads over many fields of science.
I assume this is referring to the Daughters of Oryx. Well it's simply a raid mechanic that can be found in many videos on youtube and on Destinypedia. Either way even if it wasn't a raid mechanic, one would still need Sword Logic to steal their auras.
The Vex is where those feats come from and Akka's range scales above theirs.
Destiny was already Moon Level from various feats before it became Moon Level+. Here's an example of random Taken being capable of making Io implode. Hiraks should scale above that.
Their song affected the entire planet from start to finish. The effects just became more serious over time.
That's fair, but there are Knights who are capable of using Wizard abilities, so that would still scale.
Okay.
I have asked DMUA if the speed feat can be calculated. If he doesn't answer today I'll ask some other calc group members too.
Okay.
They don't have FTL travel speed, so I doubt they traveled across the entire planet during their fight. Although I understand your skepticism, I don't see how Ikora could change Mars' atmosphere and glass its sands with her currently listed range of only hundreds of meters. Besides Mars' circumference is 21,344 km, so she wouldn't be able to affect the entirety of Mars from any position on it. If you still don't agree, what do you propose their range should be instead?
As for intelligence, is this also the case for a single genius being capable of all of that? Because she has expertise on the level of a genius in multiple fields. And as I said I can search for more feats.
I'm not entirely sure I follow. Just traveling to the Ascendant Plane would only be Dimensional Travel yes, but Taken use the exact same method of transportation both for traveling to the Plane and traveling throughout it.
I assume you are referring to removing one of Riven's weaknesses. Apologies for not listing evidence. I rushed the OP slightly and ended up listing things in a way that only knowledgeable members can fully understand. Here it's stated she can feed on someone's desire to kill her. This confirmed again here. Here someone just gets wishes things were like they used to be for a moment and pays the price. There's a lot more, but I'm not sure what kind of evidence you exactly want.
Okay.
Well him being more intelligent than random Wizards would already put him in the Genius range. On top of that a vast understanding on the universe's workings is quite impressive and seems comparable to the requirement of having knowledge which spreads over many fields of science.
I assume this is referring to the Daughters of Oryx. Well it's simply a raid mechanic that can be found in many videos on youtube and on Destinypedia. Either way even if it wasn't a raid mechanic, one would still need Sword Logic to steal their auras.
The Vex is where those feats come from and Akka's range scales above theirs.
Destiny was already Moon Level from various feats before it became Moon Level+. Here's an example of random Taken being capable of making Io implode. Hiraks should scale above that.
Their song affected the entire planet from start to finish. The effects just became more serious over time.
That's fair, but there are Knights who are capable of using Wizard abilities, so that would still scale.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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"They don't have FTL travel speed, so I doubt they traveled across the entire planet during their fight. Although I understand your skepticism, I don't see how Ikora could change Mars' atmosphere and glass its sands with her currently listed range of only hundreds of meters. Besides Mars' circumference is 21,344 km, so she wouldn't be able to affect the entirety of Mars from any position on it. If you still don't agree, what do you propose their range should be instead?
As for intelligence, is this also the case for a single genius being capable of all of that? Because she has expertise on the level of a genius in multiple fields. And as I said I can search for more feats."
At the moment they do. It refers to specifically dodging, so I fully believe they could do the feat you describe without having thousands of kilometers of range. I don't propose any range rating- I'm simply disagreeing with your current suggestion, given that as the profile is it could easily be performed without the range you imply would be needed. And aye, yeah. Extraordinary Genius is generally outside the bounds of human expertise- shit like making Dyson spheres. That, or possessing essentially all human intelligence. So like... having the intellect of all the greatest minds on Earth would do it, f'r example.
"I'm not entirely sure I follow. Just traveling to the Ascendant Plane would only be Dimensional Travel yes, but Taken use the exact same method of transportation both for traveling to the Plane and traveling throughout it."
Yes, that's what I'm getting at. It doesn't afford the same ability in the normal world, correct? So it isn't Multiversal, it's solely Universal while within the Ascendant Plane.
"I assume you are referring to removing one of Riven's weaknesses. Apologies for not listing evidence. I rushed the OP slightly and ended up listing things in a way that only knowledgeable members can fully understand. Here it's stated she can feed on someone's desire to kill her. This confirmed again here. Here someone just gets wishes things were like they used to be for a moment and pays the price. There's a lot more, but I'm not sure what kind of evidence you exactly want."
I think I have to disagree with your interpretation here. All of those links talk about objective reality and subjective desire. Your OP states "And her weakness of being unable to seduce those without desires should probably be removed. Ahamkara aren’t picky. Even the most basic desires like wanting to live are exploited by them." This is not at all in line with how her power is stated to work- her power works by desire for change. Remaining breathing isn't a change. For me, I say the weakness stays. Sure, it's possible it won't come up at all, but it should be noted in any case.
"Well him being more intelligent than random Wizards would already put him in the Genius range. On top of that a vast understanding on the universe's workings is quite impressive and seems comparable to the requirement of having knowledge which spreads over many fields of science."
I'm fine with Genius since you've provided multiple extensive Genius feats. But this just seems vague for Extraordinary Genius, to me.
"Destiny was already Moon Level from various feats before it became Moon Level+. Here's an example of random Taken being capable of making Io implode. Hiraks should scale above that."
I'm aware- I was the one that brought forward the feat, originally, I believe. From the Olden Days. What is the Moon level+ feat, then, out of curiosity?
"Their song affected the entire planet from start to finish. The effects just became more serious over time."
Proof on the first bit?
"That's fair, but there are Knights who are capable of using Wizard abilities, so that would still scale."
If it's the same ability the Wizards (potentially) displayed that range with, then aye, sure.
As for intelligence, is this also the case for a single genius being capable of all of that? Because she has expertise on the level of a genius in multiple fields. And as I said I can search for more feats."
At the moment they do. It refers to specifically dodging, so I fully believe they could do the feat you describe without having thousands of kilometers of range. I don't propose any range rating- I'm simply disagreeing with your current suggestion, given that as the profile is it could easily be performed without the range you imply would be needed. And aye, yeah. Extraordinary Genius is generally outside the bounds of human expertise- shit like making Dyson spheres. That, or possessing essentially all human intelligence. So like... having the intellect of all the greatest minds on Earth would do it, f'r example.
"I'm not entirely sure I follow. Just traveling to the Ascendant Plane would only be Dimensional Travel yes, but Taken use the exact same method of transportation both for traveling to the Plane and traveling throughout it."
Yes, that's what I'm getting at. It doesn't afford the same ability in the normal world, correct? So it isn't Multiversal, it's solely Universal while within the Ascendant Plane.
"I assume you are referring to removing one of Riven's weaknesses. Apologies for not listing evidence. I rushed the OP slightly and ended up listing things in a way that only knowledgeable members can fully understand. Here it's stated she can feed on someone's desire to kill her. This confirmed again here. Here someone just gets wishes things were like they used to be for a moment and pays the price. There's a lot more, but I'm not sure what kind of evidence you exactly want."
I think I have to disagree with your interpretation here. All of those links talk about objective reality and subjective desire. Your OP states "And her weakness of being unable to seduce those without desires should probably be removed. Ahamkara aren’t picky. Even the most basic desires like wanting to live are exploited by them." This is not at all in line with how her power is stated to work- her power works by desire for change. Remaining breathing isn't a change. For me, I say the weakness stays. Sure, it's possible it won't come up at all, but it should be noted in any case.
"Well him being more intelligent than random Wizards would already put him in the Genius range. On top of that a vast understanding on the universe's workings is quite impressive and seems comparable to the requirement of having knowledge which spreads over many fields of science."
I'm fine with Genius since you've provided multiple extensive Genius feats. But this just seems vague for Extraordinary Genius, to me.
"Destiny was already Moon Level from various feats before it became Moon Level+. Here's an example of random Taken being capable of making Io implode. Hiraks should scale above that."
I'm aware- I was the one that brought forward the feat, originally, I believe. From the Olden Days. What is the Moon level+ feat, then, out of curiosity?
"Their song affected the entire planet from start to finish. The effects just became more serious over time."
Proof on the first bit?
"That's fair, but there are Knights who are capable of using Wizard abilities, so that would still scale."
If it's the same ability the Wizards (potentially) displayed that range with, then aye, sure.
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Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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Up to you.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
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It do be tomorrow from then. If I don't comment on it, I agree with no caveat.
Crota and Friends: I feel like the daughters destruction and creation of the axioms that apparently define the entire Ascedant Plane has to count for something in this regard, since we do know the AP when left to its own devices will try and destroy shit on its own yet their songs are able to constrain such. I agree that that wouldn't scale to random ascendant knight or whatever, though.
Speed: Well the FTL is off of how most weapons actually have a faster travel time than Sleeper and whatever the other beam of light fusion rifle was because hitscans vs projectiles. I don't think the ghosts being a ton slower makes sense since they're notoriously hard to actually get a bead on even if you're able to gun down a Guardian, but I would agree that there are slower people like Knights.
Ikora Rey: I also agree, with the possible caveat that she might qualify for supergenius but I would need to look for stuff to support that.
Hiraks: Would he not be able to scale off the PC's 5-C+ low end?
Akka: Well, he's still kinda inside present Oryx, despite being dead and all, and still able to influence his actions.
Crota and Friends: I feel like the daughters destruction and creation of the axioms that apparently define the entire Ascedant Plane has to count for something in this regard, since we do know the AP when left to its own devices will try and destroy shit on its own yet their songs are able to constrain such. I agree that that wouldn't scale to random ascendant knight or whatever, though.
Speed: Well the FTL is off of how most weapons actually have a faster travel time than Sleeper and whatever the other beam of light fusion rifle was because hitscans vs projectiles. I don't think the ghosts being a ton slower makes sense since they're notoriously hard to actually get a bead on even if you're able to gun down a Guardian, but I would agree that there are slower people like Knights.
Ikora Rey: I also agree, with the possible caveat that she might qualify for supergenius but I would need to look for stuff to support that.
Hiraks: Would he not be able to scale off the PC's 5-C+ low end?
Akka: Well, he's still kinda inside present Oryx, despite being dead and all, and still able to influence his actions.
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Crota and Friends: That's done purely though hax. It's the reason why I noted that the hax of those who get downgraded isn't affected. The Ascendant Plane's passive destruction is explained as existence erasure, so that wouldn't scale to AP either. I can see them having a "possibly 2-B" rating, because they posed a great challenge to the Guardian, who had defeated Atheon at that point. With it being a "possibly" because the Guardian's tier varies so much outside of material space.
Speed: The FTL speed feat is from the PC. It's pretty clear that not everyone scales to the PC's speed. Ghosts are hard to hit due to being small targets that are almost never materialized and visible, not because of their speed. Ghosts should only be assumed to scale to FTL speeds if there's a reason to, like with the PC's Ghost.
Ikora: I proposed that she should be extraordinary genius actually.
Hiraks: Nothing actually impies he posed any kind of challenge to the PC and the PC only fights him in the Ascendant Plane, where both of them were stronger to an unknown extent than in the material universe. The only reliable way to get a value for Hiraks' AP is through him at the very least scaling above the random Taken who were going to implode Io.
Akka: Yes, but his page portrays him as he was when he was actually still alive.
Wok said he agrees with most things on discord, so I'll assume he agrees with everything he didn't comment on.
Speed: The FTL speed feat is from the PC. It's pretty clear that not everyone scales to the PC's speed. Ghosts are hard to hit due to being small targets that are almost never materialized and visible, not because of their speed. Ghosts should only be assumed to scale to FTL speeds if there's a reason to, like with the PC's Ghost.
Ikora: I proposed that she should be extraordinary genius actually.
Hiraks: Nothing actually impies he posed any kind of challenge to the PC and the PC only fights him in the Ascendant Plane, where both of them were stronger to an unknown extent than in the material universe. The only reliable way to get a value for Hiraks' AP is through him at the very least scaling above the random Taken who were going to implode Io.
Akka: Yes, but his page portrays him as he was when he was actually still alive.
Wok said he agrees with most things on discord, so I'll assume he agrees with everything he didn't comment on.
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Btw I found a potential Lifting Strength feat. Could this be calculated?
www.ishtar-collective.net
Fieldplate — Item — Ishtar Collective — Destiny Lore by subject
The sheer mass of Titan armor can break stone.
www.ishtar-collective.net
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Also:
@Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @KGiffoni @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith
Would any of you be willing to help out with a calculation please?
@Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @Ugarik @KGiffoni @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith
Would any of you be willing to help out with a calculation please?
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@Antvasima could you unlock Oryx, the Taken King's page?
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I might be misremembering, but I think Wok said he was gonna be busy with tests.
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Then it's probably work and studies keeping him busy.
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Bump
This really should have enough support to go through, although on the topic of the Moon Level+ rating, that's only for realspace guys, so it could be reworked into another key I think
This really should have enough support to go through, although on the topic of the Moon Level+ rating, that's only for realspace guys, so it could be reworked into another key I think
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Wokistan and I continued to discuss this on the Destiny discord, but he hasn't responded there in a while either.
@Antvasima
Tier 2 changes are still being discussed. I agreed that Crota and those who scale to him could still get a possibly 2-B rating. Everything else was resolved and accepted.
Things that still need to be edited are:
-Characters who are becoming likely Low 2-C outside of material space need to get separate keys. "Material Space | Outside of Material Space/Ascendants (in the case of the Wizard and Knight profiles)".
-Warlock, Knight and Wizard profiles need to have their speed ratings changed.
-Ikora's speed, range, and intelligence ratings need to be changed.
-The Warpriest's lifting stength and range need to be changed.
-A note needs to be added that the Oryx listed in Akka’s equipment section is a far younger and weaker Oryx.
-Hiraks needs to be downgraded from Moon Level+ to Moon Level and Interdimensional should be added to his range.
-The range of Wizards needs to be changed.
-The range of Knights needs to be changed.
@Antvasima
Tier 2 changes are still being discussed. I agreed that Crota and those who scale to him could still get a possibly 2-B rating. Everything else was resolved and accepted.
Things that still need to be edited are:
-Characters who are becoming likely Low 2-C outside of material space need to get separate keys. "Material Space | Outside of Material Space/Ascendants (in the case of the Wizard and Knight profiles)".
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-The Warpriest's lifting stength and range need to be changed.
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Well, given that Wokistan seems uninterested in this thread, as long as you strictly apply what has been accepted and know what you are doing, I suppose that it is probably fine if you perform the edits then.
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Okay. Thank you.
Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.
Please remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits are made, and extensive cleanup work will not be necessary.
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