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Tier 2 Destiny
- Thread starter Wokistan
- Start date
- Status
- 8,809
- 2,868
I always knew you had godly tastes.
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From what I've read it seems legit.
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Still not sure about the Vex. The emphasis on the simulation part and the unreality of it seems too strong to brush it off and just slap Low 2-C on it. Although I don't feel extremely strongly about it so I'm more neutral.
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I'll be neutral here, but Azathoth seems really busy.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
- 16,925
- 7,374
- Thread starter
- #47
I'll go put Low 2-Cs on files for now, but gonna keep this open due to the existence of the higher end goal.
Azathoth having stuff to do in his life is why Galaxian sent messages to most of the discussion mods and admins yesterday, recommended other input in absence of his own. Is a little problematic when most of the thread is just 3 people debating a thing though.
Azathoth having stuff to do in his life is why Galaxian sent messages to most of the discussion mods and admins yesterday, recommended other input in absence of his own. Is a little problematic when most of the thread is just 3 people debating a thing though.
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While I am personally fine with 2-B/2-A with what was given, given the amount of neutrals we have, do you have more evidence you like to share?Wokistan said:
Personally am fine with a flat 2-B/2-A but I also am fine with a likely/possibly being pegged to Low 2-C.
This has been open for a month and a half guys, lets just discuss it without Azzy for now.
Rattling off that, I know you aren't proposing this but I think it might be best to give out the following:
Oryx: At least 2-B, 2-A overtime.
Everyone Else: At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B.
Also, considering the Vex is basically a bunch of timelines, don't most of these charas have space-time/continuum manipulation?
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First of all, I'd like to thank the staff who took time to look this over and give responses as best they could. Really appreciate the extra effort in trying to get this resolved. I will have another big post with more Vex evidence coming soon when I get a chance to fully explain.
@SinsofMan
I would like to make sure you're aware that we are only scaling the Tier 2 stats to characters when they are either in the Ascendant Plane or relevant Vex realm. They only exhibit these levels of power when they are in their seat of power where they have full control.
The Guardian and characters like Oryx would only scale while in these realms. Guardians are only able to beat these characters because they use the mechanics of these spaces against the owner or they have a specific tool to assist them. Examples include using the Sword Logic against Ascendant Hive and the Aegis in the Vault of Glass which specifically countered Atheon.
Most Legendary Guardians and powerful figures in the physical plane cap out at 4-B with the scaling, not any higher.
Also no, the Vex themselves are not timelines although they are capable of creating them. Characters have Space-Time Manipulation on a case by case basis.
@SinsofMan
I would like to make sure you're aware that we are only scaling the Tier 2 stats to characters when they are either in the Ascendant Plane or relevant Vex realm. They only exhibit these levels of power when they are in their seat of power where they have full control.
The Guardian and characters like Oryx would only scale while in these realms. Guardians are only able to beat these characters because they use the mechanics of these spaces against the owner or they have a specific tool to assist them. Examples include using the Sword Logic against Ascendant Hive and the Aegis in the Vault of Glass which specifically countered Atheon.
Most Legendary Guardians and powerful figures in the physical plane cap out at 4-B with the scaling, not any higher.
Also no, the Vex themselves are not timelines although they are capable of creating them. Characters have Space-Time Manipulation on a case by case basis.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
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- #50
The Vex is a hive mind of thinking machines scattered across trillions/infinitely many timelines, existing at all points in space and time attempting to calculate a future where all there is is Vex. They can make their own timelines and mess around with them but they aren't a sentient timeline as a collective.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
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- Thread starter
- #51
So it seems people still doubt that Vex sims can be used because of being referred to as simulations, so I guess I should post this large comment by GalaxianAegis to establish that the word simulation should not disqualify them from such tierings:
"So the continued assertions that I believe I see which are still causing problems with the Vex and their spaces revolve around some of them being "simulations". I know this is the term used by several of the in-game sources, but equating these structures to not being "real" or physical is incorrect given evidence presented here as well as new evidence I have to bring to the table.
Basically, Vex simulations are real, physical copies of things that are perfectly made within their spaces. I'll first call upon evidence that's already been presented here in this thread.
In the OP, it was shown that a Vex was capable of simulating multiple copies of some researchers at the Ishtar Collective. These simulations weren't just non-physical copies though. The researchers that were real clearly pulled them out of the simulation and were given other physical matter like notebooks and such before they were transmitted back into the Vex Gate system to explore more of time and space. Regular simulations would be unable to leave the virtual space where they exist, and this isn't the only example of Vex projections being able to do so.
During the Tree of Probabilities strike, it is directly stated that the Cabal in the simulation are a very real threat and that if they were able to get the information from the map outside the Forest it would cause huge problems for reality. While it's not in the Vex's best intentions for their simulations to escape their spaces, there's multiple instances described here where it is possible. Again, a traditional simulation wouldn't be able to leave the virtual space in which it was created yet Vex projections can.
During the A Garden World Strike, Sagira makes a statement that she took over our Ghost's shell to help us save all of time and space. This implies that Panoptes really was a threat to all of spacetime. A conventional simulation wouldn't be able to pose this kind of threat to the verse.
Furthermore, it's stated multiple times that the enemies in the Infinite Forest are real enough to kill us. There's even a point where our Guardian gets their memories erased by Panoptes during the course of the Curse of Osiris main campaign. Thus, these entities are capable of interacting with real physical matter even to the point that they hax the PC Guardian who is insanely powerful. Traditional simulations can't interact with real matter in any way like these can.
Finally for the simulation case, we have the instance of Quria simulating a previous version of Oryx. Not only was this simulation created inside of the Hive Ascendant Plane, which is pretty much the absolute worst place for the Vex because of how different it is from their spaces, but Quria was able to project this version into reality. This projection had sentience though, it asked Oryx who he was and even questioned about his sisters when it knew of their existence.
Going back to Osiris, in his comic remember that he is scared that the Vex will eventually learn how to simulate the Light and create Guardians.
Now even outside of their simulations, the Vex still present some very real control over space and time in Destiny.
It's stated by Ikora that time itself is home to the Vex.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-undying-mind-2
The Heart of the Black Garden is an entity powerful enough to have a direct effect on the Traveller and its recovery. Secondly, the Vault of Glass is said to hold the power that the Progeny was trying to bring into our world.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-black-garden?highlight=black+garde
The Black Garden isn't a space that should exist in our world. After the Black Heart was destroyed, they are constantly trying to get the Black Garden back to being sealed. The Guardians seek to avoid this outcome.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-undying-mind?highlight=black+garde
The Black Garden has endless channels with its landscape controlled by the Vex.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/pantheon?highlight=black+garde
The Black Garden grows tomorrow and yesterday across time. Also flowers that bloom there are known to stay bloomed forever.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/legend-the-black-garden?highlight=black+garde
Gate Lords are powerful Vex Minds that are responsible for keeping certain realms locked outside of time.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/eye-of-a-gate-lord?highlight=black+garde
Time is relative to the Vex due to their nature. As soon as a powerful Mind is destroyed, a Restorative Mind is deployed that build a bridge through time to restore the Vex. Because of this, while a powerful Mind may be destroyed, it is only ever temporarily.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/echo-chamber?highlight=Nexus
The Restoring Mind has the ability to undo any other Mind's "undoing" or death. It also puts into question why Humanity hasn't been wiped out by the Vex, but that's something that is disputed even in verse.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/theosyion-the-restorative-mind?highlight=Nexus
The Restorative Mind is a huge threat because it can resurrect Vex Minds that have previously been defeated. Destroying the Restorative Mind also seems to have a huge impact across time as its actions are undone causing other Vex Minds to perish. The causality implications of this are massive for the future and past events.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/echo-chamber?highlight=Nexus
Atheon is a being described as managing all of the Vex confluxes. He also is a being that transcends causality and is the center of all these lines of causality from across space-time. The Vex seek to also become a fundamental law of the universe so they can never be removed.
Souce: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/atheon-times-conflux?highlight=atheon+
All of time moves through the needle in the Vault of Glass known as Atheon.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/vault-of-glass?highlight=vault+of+glass
Vex technology disrupts the normal flow of time itself. Gaurdians have become lost in the Vault, and thus lost in time due to these effects.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/paradox-daily?highlight=vault+of+glass
Gorgons in the Vault of Glass have the ability to instantly delete Gaurdians they find within.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-gorgons?highlight=vault+of+glass
Those who delve into the Vault of Glass are said to have seen time torn asunder.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/precursors?highlight=vault+of+glass
Vex from the Vault of Glass are so powerful, that they exist in the future already:
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/descendants?highlight=vault+of+glass
Skolas, the Kell of Kells from the House of Wolves questline, uses technology from the Vault of Glass to transport his House of Wolves subordinates through time and space to be used in his final battle.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/queens-ransom
Fundamentally, it would be impossible for all of these spaces to be mere conventional simulations. The "simulations" that the Vex make are not limited to the space they are created. They can come outside of the simulation and even interact with other real matter as shown in the case with Maya Sundaresh and her copies. They can even make these simulations on the fly as shown with Quria who was capable of making a simulation in Oryx's throne world. The simulations for all intents and purposes are stated redundantly to be real and capable of killing our Guardian. During one point of the Curse of Osiris campaign, Panoptes even erases our Guardian's memories. Osiris even believes that they would eventually be able to simulate Guardians and the Light. All of this information contextually creates the condition that the Vex aren't making conventional, non-physical simulations. They are making copies of something that exists in the physical world as perfectly as possible. This goes for their actual simulations of timelines in the Infinite Forest as well.
Secondly, the Vex are explicitly shown to have impacts with their power which are specifically not simulations. Specifically, it's stated that time itself is like a home to the Vex. In the Vault of Glass, Atheon is said the be the convergent point upon which all timelines bulk. The Vault specifically contains multiple timelines, and we know these exist due to multiple pieces of evidence. Skolas uses the Vault of Glass technology to bring his House of Wolves from across time to face The Guardian, and they are not simulations for reference. The Vault of Glass raid, statements from Osiris, and the Ascendant and Descendant Vex being from different timelines. The Gorgons who erase Guardians in the Vault of Glass also erase them from the memories of most who knew them on the outside. They have real realms like the Black Garden which exist outside of normal time and space where time flows freely in both directions. Destroying the Restorative Mind has real consequences for the causality across the universe as well.
The Vex truly and honestly have the full ability to manifest entire timelines as well as affect the timeline of the physical universe. They cannot be discounted as simulations because they accomplish feats which are impossible for traditional simulations. It is best to think of the Vex materialization of matter as copies, not something intangible. "
There are also a few things I would like to call special attention to.
"So the continued assertions that I believe I see which are still causing problems with the Vex and their spaces revolve around some of them being "simulations". I know this is the term used by several of the in-game sources, but equating these structures to not being "real" or physical is incorrect given evidence presented here as well as new evidence I have to bring to the table.
Basically, Vex simulations are real, physical copies of things that are perfectly made within their spaces. I'll first call upon evidence that's already been presented here in this thread.
In the OP, it was shown that a Vex was capable of simulating multiple copies of some researchers at the Ishtar Collective. These simulations weren't just non-physical copies though. The researchers that were real clearly pulled them out of the simulation and were given other physical matter like notebooks and such before they were transmitted back into the Vex Gate system to explore more of time and space. Regular simulations would be unable to leave the virtual space where they exist, and this isn't the only example of Vex projections being able to do so.
During the Tree of Probabilities strike, it is directly stated that the Cabal in the simulation are a very real threat and that if they were able to get the information from the map outside the Forest it would cause huge problems for reality. While it's not in the Vex's best intentions for their simulations to escape their spaces, there's multiple instances described here where it is possible. Again, a traditional simulation wouldn't be able to leave the virtual space in which it was created yet Vex projections can.
During the A Garden World Strike, Sagira makes a statement that she took over our Ghost's shell to help us save all of time and space. This implies that Panoptes really was a threat to all of spacetime. A conventional simulation wouldn't be able to pose this kind of threat to the verse.
Furthermore, it's stated multiple times that the enemies in the Infinite Forest are real enough to kill us. There's even a point where our Guardian gets their memories erased by Panoptes during the course of the Curse of Osiris main campaign. Thus, these entities are capable of interacting with real physical matter even to the point that they hax the PC Guardian who is insanely powerful. Traditional simulations can't interact with real matter in any way like these can.
Finally for the simulation case, we have the instance of Quria simulating a previous version of Oryx. Not only was this simulation created inside of the Hive Ascendant Plane, which is pretty much the absolute worst place for the Vex because of how different it is from their spaces, but Quria was able to project this version into reality. This projection had sentience though, it asked Oryx who he was and even questioned about his sisters when it knew of their existence.
Going back to Osiris, in his comic remember that he is scared that the Vex will eventually learn how to simulate the Light and create Guardians.
Now even outside of their simulations, the Vex still present some very real control over space and time in Destiny.
It's stated by Ikora that time itself is home to the Vex.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-undying-mind-2
The Heart of the Black Garden is an entity powerful enough to have a direct effect on the Traveller and its recovery. Secondly, the Vault of Glass is said to hold the power that the Progeny was trying to bring into our world.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-black-garden?highlight=black+garde
The Black Garden isn't a space that should exist in our world. After the Black Heart was destroyed, they are constantly trying to get the Black Garden back to being sealed. The Guardians seek to avoid this outcome.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-undying-mind?highlight=black+garde
The Black Garden has endless channels with its landscape controlled by the Vex.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/pantheon?highlight=black+garde
The Black Garden grows tomorrow and yesterday across time. Also flowers that bloom there are known to stay bloomed forever.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/legend-the-black-garden?highlight=black+garde
Gate Lords are powerful Vex Minds that are responsible for keeping certain realms locked outside of time.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/eye-of-a-gate-lord?highlight=black+garde
Time is relative to the Vex due to their nature. As soon as a powerful Mind is destroyed, a Restorative Mind is deployed that build a bridge through time to restore the Vex. Because of this, while a powerful Mind may be destroyed, it is only ever temporarily.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/echo-chamber?highlight=Nexus
The Restoring Mind has the ability to undo any other Mind's "undoing" or death. It also puts into question why Humanity hasn't been wiped out by the Vex, but that's something that is disputed even in verse.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/theosyion-the-restorative-mind?highlight=Nexus
The Restorative Mind is a huge threat because it can resurrect Vex Minds that have previously been defeated. Destroying the Restorative Mind also seems to have a huge impact across time as its actions are undone causing other Vex Minds to perish. The causality implications of this are massive for the future and past events.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/echo-chamber?highlight=Nexus
Atheon is a being described as managing all of the Vex confluxes. He also is a being that transcends causality and is the center of all these lines of causality from across space-time. The Vex seek to also become a fundamental law of the universe so they can never be removed.
Souce: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/atheon-times-conflux?highlight=atheon+
All of time moves through the needle in the Vault of Glass known as Atheon.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/vault-of-glass?highlight=vault+of+glass
Vex technology disrupts the normal flow of time itself. Gaurdians have become lost in the Vault, and thus lost in time due to these effects.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/paradox-daily?highlight=vault+of+glass
Gorgons in the Vault of Glass have the ability to instantly delete Gaurdians they find within.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/the-gorgons?highlight=vault+of+glass
Those who delve into the Vault of Glass are said to have seen time torn asunder.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/precursors?highlight=vault+of+glass
Vex from the Vault of Glass are so powerful, that they exist in the future already:
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/descendants?highlight=vault+of+glass
Skolas, the Kell of Kells from the House of Wolves questline, uses technology from the Vault of Glass to transport his House of Wolves subordinates through time and space to be used in his final battle.
Source: https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/queens-ransom
Fundamentally, it would be impossible for all of these spaces to be mere conventional simulations. The "simulations" that the Vex make are not limited to the space they are created. They can come outside of the simulation and even interact with other real matter as shown in the case with Maya Sundaresh and her copies. They can even make these simulations on the fly as shown with Quria who was capable of making a simulation in Oryx's throne world. The simulations for all intents and purposes are stated redundantly to be real and capable of killing our Guardian. During one point of the Curse of Osiris campaign, Panoptes even erases our Guardian's memories. Osiris even believes that they would eventually be able to simulate Guardians and the Light. All of this information contextually creates the condition that the Vex aren't making conventional, non-physical simulations. They are making copies of something that exists in the physical world as perfectly as possible. This goes for their actual simulations of timelines in the Infinite Forest as well.
Secondly, the Vex are explicitly shown to have impacts with their power which are specifically not simulations. Specifically, it's stated that time itself is like a home to the Vex. In the Vault of Glass, Atheon is said the be the convergent point upon which all timelines bulk. The Vault specifically contains multiple timelines, and we know these exist due to multiple pieces of evidence. Skolas uses the Vault of Glass technology to bring his House of Wolves from across time to face The Guardian, and they are not simulations for reference. The Vault of Glass raid, statements from Osiris, and the Ascendant and Descendant Vex being from different timelines. The Gorgons who erase Guardians in the Vault of Glass also erase them from the memories of most who knew them on the outside. They have real realms like the Black Garden which exist outside of normal time and space where time flows freely in both directions. Destroying the Restorative Mind has real consequences for the causality across the universe as well.
The Vex truly and honestly have the full ability to manifest entire timelines as well as affect the timeline of the physical universe. They cannot be discounted as simulations because they accomplish feats which are impossible for traditional simulations. It is best to think of the Vex materialization of matter as copies, not something intangible. "
There are also a few things I would like to call special attention to.
- Firstly, earlier on it was said that Vex stuff being real would imply their resources are infinite, so they can't be real. The issue is, this isn't really a contradiction. Vex win by attrition all the time. They killed Saint-14 over a period of centuries, cause for all his power even he can't leave the Infinite Forest alone, they stalemated Oryx's kids for a hundred years, Cabal reports tell on how they can't hope to win war against the Vex due to them always just warping back, and Osiris straight up says that they'd never die and would have to be fought for longer than forever. Them having infinite resources isn't contradicted by anything, seeing as anything short of Oryx, the Player Character, and the Light and Darkness itself they are able to eventually understand, simulate, and overcome.
- Skolas was mentioned in Ace's comment, but I'd like to elaborate on this further. Skolas is a Fallen Kell. He is not a Vex, he isn't Osiris who is within a Vex simulation, and he isn't Oryx/Savathun messing around with the one Vex Mind to understand the Sword Logic. Skolas is using Vex tech to pull his house through different points in time and space to him, amassing an undying army that will let him unify his race and take back the traveler. He wants this army for things that are blatantly not within Vex simulations, and is using regular Vex tech for this goal. This would be impossible to achieve if Vex sims were purely unreality. If they're real enough for Skolas to be able to pull real people out of them and into reality, they should be real enough to count for AP.
- Crota is messing around with his sword and cuts a wound into Vex space. He and his sisters then get stalemated by the Vex for 100 years: They're far too powerful in their own domains, but Quria's usage of the Sword Logic can stop them from annihilating the Vex and they lose too much power when they go into Vex space and are forced to retreat. That Crota can just cut into their area like this would support Vex worlds existing on a similar level to Hive ones, as it doesn't really make much sense that he could cut into a space that doesn't really exist and somehow still get stalemated by the inhabitants of that space.
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I guess that seems fine.
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I agree that Wokistan seems to make the most sense.
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One addition, as I always say, is always better to notify me before posting something, I always have things to add. The vault of glass is also described as timeless, it is remarkable that the vexs transcend time, but in themselves still use it to manipulate timelines.Wokistan said:
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Responding as I was requested.
First of all, a huge chunk of this seems to be about the Vault of Glass, which is not remotely the same thing as the Infinite Forest. Are these being linked because they are both Vex technology? Was there a comment I missed? I even checked Destinypedia to see if I was forgetting something, but could not find anything there, either. The two places do not at all fulfill the same function, either. Stuff like "Vex Space" also does not suggest the Infinite Forest.
Second, the copies of the Ishtar Collective researchers did not seem to be remotely implied to be complete, physical people. They are even stored as minds inside a computer.
"But they walk together in proxy, pressed close, huddled in awe. Blue-green light, light the color of an ancient sea, washes over them. Each of their explorer bodies carries a slim computer. Inside, two hundred twenty-seven of copies of their own minds wait, patient and paused, for dispersal."
They are then called "mental phantasms".
"The four of them set up the interface. Their stored copies wake up and prepare for the journey, so that as they work they find themselves surrounded by the mental phantasms of themselves: two hundred and twenty-seven Mayas and Chiomas knocking helmets and smiling, two hundred and twenty-seven Dr. Shims making cynical bets with each other about how long they'll last, two hundred and twenty-seven Duane-McNiadhs blowing goodbye kisses to the sweet golden sun, two hundred and twenty-seven of them shaking hands, smiling, making ready to explore."
If this is not what's being referred to, please let me know, but the Vault of Glass =/= the Infinite Forest and these copies were not real people.
In regards to the Cabal in Tree of Probabilities, there were explicitly real Cabal that had invaded the Forest. They had simulated copies made of them, but there were real Cabal. This is not the same as entirely simulated Cabal up and potentially leaving to become a direct threat to the universe.
"Incoming transmission. Text only. "Forest created copies of Cabal invasion. Eliminate them."- Osiris" - Ghost
Panoptes was a threat to space-time because his entire purpose was to run a potentially endless number of simulations that would allow the Vex to understand everything their enemies could do and plot the best course of action in the real universe. None of this relies on the simulations being the exact same thing as the real universe or Panoptes being multiversal. That cannot possibly be the only thing that "Borrowed. I borrowed it. To save all of time and space." means.
The enemies in the Infinite Forest are real enough to kill you when you enter the forest. Once again, this is an extremely important distinction. Also, memory manipulation is not a great choice for proving complete physical interaction with something.
I've mentioned this before, but Quria was specifically able to understand and utilize Sword Logic (though likely not to its fullest potential). It is not just any random Vex, and does not help prove the Forest's simulations are the same thing when it is running on something entirely different.
Osiris being scared that the Vex would simulate Light and Guardians could, once again, very likely mean the Vex will then be fully equipped to use the Light and completely counter Guardians. I don't see how this has to mean the Vex will just simulate infinite Guardians that become real, or something.
Much of the rest of this is just general things the Vex can do and has nothing to do with the Forest, and it matters less due to the fact Tier 2 in general is already accepted. The problem is that people want to use the Forest specifically to achieve 2-B/2-A, but I don't believe any sufficient proof for this has been given, as almost all of it is about something else the Vex made or not actually proof that simulations = reality.
To accept the Infinite Forest as being a completely real multiverse, the most important things would be showing that things in the Forest are completely and utterly real, that they are physical beings that can leave the Forest in some way not entirely insubstantial, and that this gives the Vex effectively infinite resources. The problem is I don't believe this has really been done, and much of the Vex conversation tends to veer away from the Forest itself.
Would have typed more, but I have to leave. Hopefully this is clear enough on my current views, which can always be changed with sufficient evidence.
First of all, a huge chunk of this seems to be about the Vault of Glass, which is not remotely the same thing as the Infinite Forest. Are these being linked because they are both Vex technology? Was there a comment I missed? I even checked Destinypedia to see if I was forgetting something, but could not find anything there, either. The two places do not at all fulfill the same function, either. Stuff like "Vex Space" also does not suggest the Infinite Forest.
Second, the copies of the Ishtar Collective researchers did not seem to be remotely implied to be complete, physical people. They are even stored as minds inside a computer.
"But they walk together in proxy, pressed close, huddled in awe. Blue-green light, light the color of an ancient sea, washes over them. Each of their explorer bodies carries a slim computer. Inside, two hundred twenty-seven of copies of their own minds wait, patient and paused, for dispersal."
They are then called "mental phantasms".
"The four of them set up the interface. Their stored copies wake up and prepare for the journey, so that as they work they find themselves surrounded by the mental phantasms of themselves: two hundred and twenty-seven Mayas and Chiomas knocking helmets and smiling, two hundred and twenty-seven Dr. Shims making cynical bets with each other about how long they'll last, two hundred and twenty-seven Duane-McNiadhs blowing goodbye kisses to the sweet golden sun, two hundred and twenty-seven of them shaking hands, smiling, making ready to explore."
If this is not what's being referred to, please let me know, but the Vault of Glass =/= the Infinite Forest and these copies were not real people.
In regards to the Cabal in Tree of Probabilities, there were explicitly real Cabal that had invaded the Forest. They had simulated copies made of them, but there were real Cabal. This is not the same as entirely simulated Cabal up and potentially leaving to become a direct threat to the universe.
"Incoming transmission. Text only. "Forest created copies of Cabal invasion. Eliminate them."- Osiris" - Ghost
Panoptes was a threat to space-time because his entire purpose was to run a potentially endless number of simulations that would allow the Vex to understand everything their enemies could do and plot the best course of action in the real universe. None of this relies on the simulations being the exact same thing as the real universe or Panoptes being multiversal. That cannot possibly be the only thing that "Borrowed. I borrowed it. To save all of time and space." means.
The enemies in the Infinite Forest are real enough to kill you when you enter the forest. Once again, this is an extremely important distinction. Also, memory manipulation is not a great choice for proving complete physical interaction with something.
I've mentioned this before, but Quria was specifically able to understand and utilize Sword Logic (though likely not to its fullest potential). It is not just any random Vex, and does not help prove the Forest's simulations are the same thing when it is running on something entirely different.
Osiris being scared that the Vex would simulate Light and Guardians could, once again, very likely mean the Vex will then be fully equipped to use the Light and completely counter Guardians. I don't see how this has to mean the Vex will just simulate infinite Guardians that become real, or something.
Much of the rest of this is just general things the Vex can do and has nothing to do with the Forest, and it matters less due to the fact Tier 2 in general is already accepted. The problem is that people want to use the Forest specifically to achieve 2-B/2-A, but I don't believe any sufficient proof for this has been given, as almost all of it is about something else the Vex made or not actually proof that simulations = reality.
To accept the Infinite Forest as being a completely real multiverse, the most important things would be showing that things in the Forest are completely and utterly real, that they are physical beings that can leave the Forest in some way not entirely insubstantial, and that this gives the Vex effectively infinite resources. The problem is I don't believe this has really been done, and much of the Vex conversation tends to veer away from the Forest itself.
Would have typed more, but I have to leave. Hopefully this is clear enough on my current views, which can always be changed with sufficient evidence.
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ÔÇïÔÇïÔÇïÔÇïÔÇïThe Infinite Forest and Vault of Glass are two nodes in the Nexus, the Vex Collective's trans-dimensional, trans-temporal network. As seen in the "Curse of Osiris" trailer, the Infinite Forest seems capable of creating simulations of the Vault of Glass. Within both places, time flows differently - the Vault of Glass is "timeless", and Atheon had complete control over the flow of time within it; in the Infinite Forest, you can be inside for lengthy periods of time yet come back out mere moments after you entered in the real world. Time itself is in flux within the Forest.
As for simulations leaving the Infinite Forest, the Tree of Probabilities strike is the source of that. Here are some quotes:
Ikora: My Hidden operatives tell me the Cabal have caused some kind of anomaly inside the Infinite Forest. Multiple squads from your first visit have been copied. Osiris is… concerned. You don't have to, but if you go in there, make sure the Cabal don't leave with any Vex tech.
Sagira: Hey, team! Copies of the Cabal invasion are trapped inside the Infinite Forest. On the, uh, off chance one of them escapes, possibly armed with world-breaking Vex tech…
Ghost: Wouldn't be the first time. We'll handle this.
https://commons.ishtar-collective.net/t/tree-of-probabilities-strike/1516
Sagira is the Ghost of Osiris, a Guardian who knows more about the Infinite Forest than anyone else. Ikora is Osiris's protoge, and should herself be knowledgable of what is and isn't capable with the Forest's simulations. The entire strike occurs because the simulated Cabal are trying to find a future where the Red Legion wins the Red War, and there is a risk of them escaping with Vex technology that would allow that.
The Vex Network as a whole spans not just one timeline, but a countless number of timelines. In other words, the Network as a whole already spans countless realities. The Infinite Forest can create simulations of such fidelity that they can be physically interacted with, they can kill, and they are even capable of leaving the Forest, as implied by the "Tree of Probabilities" strike.
As for simulations leaving the Infinite Forest, the Tree of Probabilities strike is the source of that. Here are some quotes:
Ikora: My Hidden operatives tell me the Cabal have caused some kind of anomaly inside the Infinite Forest. Multiple squads from your first visit have been copied. Osiris is… concerned. You don't have to, but if you go in there, make sure the Cabal don't leave with any Vex tech.
Sagira: Hey, team! Copies of the Cabal invasion are trapped inside the Infinite Forest. On the, uh, off chance one of them escapes, possibly armed with world-breaking Vex tech…
Ghost: Wouldn't be the first time. We'll handle this.
https://commons.ishtar-collective.net/t/tree-of-probabilities-strike/1516
Sagira is the Ghost of Osiris, a Guardian who knows more about the Infinite Forest than anyone else. Ikora is Osiris's protoge, and should herself be knowledgable of what is and isn't capable with the Forest's simulations. The entire strike occurs because the simulated Cabal are trying to find a future where the Red Legion wins the Red War, and there is a risk of them escaping with Vex technology that would allow that.
The Vex Network as a whole spans not just one timeline, but a countless number of timelines. In other words, the Network as a whole already spans countless realities. The Infinite Forest can create simulations of such fidelity that they can be physically interacted with, they can kill, and they are even capable of leaving the Forest, as implied by the "Tree of Probabilities" strike.
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Thank you. I do have a few comments, though.
Firstly, I'm still not sure how this completely links the Vault and the Forest. Yes, they're both Vex tech and linked to the Nexus, but they are different Nodes that do different things. The Forest creates simulations of reality so that the Vex may better plan their actions in reality, whereas the Vault focuses on testing types "ontological warfare" (or something like that, if I'm remembering correctly) and extending it into reality. They are very different, and still entirely different pieces of the same trans-dimensional machine. What applies to one is not guaranteed to be the exact same for the other, though the Vex's time manipulation is clearly in play in some way, in both cases.
The Tree of Probabilities quotes are helpful, as I'd forgotten a good bit, but it seems important to point out that, again, these were not exactly fully simulated Cabal. The dialogue seems to state they are "temporal copies", and furthermore, a glitch. While this has happened before, it is not supposed to, and does not seem remotely intentional on the part of the Vex or the Forest itself. It also seems to have been caused by the Vex's time shenanigans as opposed to just simulation. Basically, my point is that this isn't remotely what the Forest normally does/is supposed to do, and seems to be a glitch caused by a real Cabal invasion + time fuckery.
"Sagira: Guardian! We've got Cabal loose. A glitch within the Forest has created copies of the invasion. Feel like a gunfight?"
"Osiris: Guardian, I need your help. Temporal copies of the Cabal invasion force have appeared within the Infinite Forest - an unfortunate glitch. Can I count on you to eliminate them?"
"Osiris: The Red Legion continues to patrol this area, and its campaign for the Infinite Forest rages on. Repeated incursions have caused a glitch, and a Legionary squad is now trapped in time."
"Ikora: My Hidden operatives tell me the Cabal have caused some kind of anomaly inside the Infinite Forest. Multiple squads from your first visit have been copied. Osiris is… concerned. You don't have to, but if you go in there, make sure the Cabal don't leave with any Vex tech."
Which makes sense, because we're specifically told time is in flux, here.
"Ghost: The geometric data I'm reading from this archetecture - it's subtly shifting. Like reality trying to decide on a version it likes.
Sagira: In the Forest, time itself is in flux."
My issue remains that things are never as simple as "the Vex created an infinite multiverse in order to try and merge with the universe". The Infinite Forest is still a simulation. A simulation powered by near-magical Vex tech, but still a simulation. It is more "real" than any simulation we could make, but that does not make it the equivalent to and endless collection of real universes. It is still a virtual reality powered by a big machine that exists in the physical universe. Resources are never stated (to my knowledge) to be completely simulated from scratch when they are potentially "real" enough to leave the Forest, but instead entirely accidental copies of something that already existed which were temporally cloned.
I have no doubt Destiny's top tiers could be far higher than their current rating, or that something could be added to the lore that makes the Forest the equivalent of an infinite number of physical universes beyond a shadow of a doubt. But I'm just not seeing it, at the moment.
Firstly, I'm still not sure how this completely links the Vault and the Forest. Yes, they're both Vex tech and linked to the Nexus, but they are different Nodes that do different things. The Forest creates simulations of reality so that the Vex may better plan their actions in reality, whereas the Vault focuses on testing types "ontological warfare" (or something like that, if I'm remembering correctly) and extending it into reality. They are very different, and still entirely different pieces of the same trans-dimensional machine. What applies to one is not guaranteed to be the exact same for the other, though the Vex's time manipulation is clearly in play in some way, in both cases.
The Tree of Probabilities quotes are helpful, as I'd forgotten a good bit, but it seems important to point out that, again, these were not exactly fully simulated Cabal. The dialogue seems to state they are "temporal copies", and furthermore, a glitch. While this has happened before, it is not supposed to, and does not seem remotely intentional on the part of the Vex or the Forest itself. It also seems to have been caused by the Vex's time shenanigans as opposed to just simulation. Basically, my point is that this isn't remotely what the Forest normally does/is supposed to do, and seems to be a glitch caused by a real Cabal invasion + time fuckery.
"Sagira: Guardian! We've got Cabal loose. A glitch within the Forest has created copies of the invasion. Feel like a gunfight?"
"Osiris: Guardian, I need your help. Temporal copies of the Cabal invasion force have appeared within the Infinite Forest - an unfortunate glitch. Can I count on you to eliminate them?"
"Osiris: The Red Legion continues to patrol this area, and its campaign for the Infinite Forest rages on. Repeated incursions have caused a glitch, and a Legionary squad is now trapped in time."
"Ikora: My Hidden operatives tell me the Cabal have caused some kind of anomaly inside the Infinite Forest. Multiple squads from your first visit have been copied. Osiris is… concerned. You don't have to, but if you go in there, make sure the Cabal don't leave with any Vex tech."
Which makes sense, because we're specifically told time is in flux, here.
"Ghost: The geometric data I'm reading from this archetecture - it's subtly shifting. Like reality trying to decide on a version it likes.
Sagira: In the Forest, time itself is in flux."
My issue remains that things are never as simple as "the Vex created an infinite multiverse in order to try and merge with the universe". The Infinite Forest is still a simulation. A simulation powered by near-magical Vex tech, but still a simulation. It is more "real" than any simulation we could make, but that does not make it the equivalent to and endless collection of real universes. It is still a virtual reality powered by a big machine that exists in the physical universe. Resources are never stated (to my knowledge) to be completely simulated from scratch when they are potentially "real" enough to leave the Forest, but instead entirely accidental copies of something that already existed which were temporally cloned.
I have no doubt Destiny's top tiers could be far higher than their current rating, or that something could be added to the lore that makes the Forest the equivalent of an infinite number of physical universes beyond a shadow of a doubt. But I'm just not seeing it, at the moment.
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I think Azathoth raises good points. And it's also good to see him back, even if it might be for long, but always good to see him.
Wokistan
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I would like to note though before the large comment: The Infinite Forest isn't the only source of higher end tier 2 stuff. VoG itself has both statements of 1 trillion+ and infinite timelines existing within it, and you don't seem to be questioning that one right now.
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Before I post the mega comment though, I'd like to ask if @Azzy wants to join the Discord group chat I made for discussing upgrades, verse reversions, etc. We collaborate a lot and it might even be quicker to discuss some things there.
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So I still feel that Azzy has some misconceptions about the information that was previously shared, so I'm going to try and make this as clear as possible.
The Vault of Glass and the Infinite Forest serve similar purposes albeit they are different methods. Atheon leads the Vex initiative to alter the physical universe and institute themselves as a physical law that is irremovable. The Vex in the VoG are directly manipulating timelines by removing entities that stand counter to their goals. This is the purpose of the Gorgons in the Vault of Glass. The Infinite Forest is used to as Osiris says, "brute force" the future. The Vex are using their ability to simulate and run multiple timelines in parallel to gain an advantage in the material plane. They are similar in that they want to work towards the same future of Vex domination, but they are different.
The point of mentioning both of these places though is to show that the Vex don't just have these hyper-realistic simulations they have real control that extends to other real timelines as well. I'm not saying that they are the same thing.
There seems to be a misunderstanding about the quote here. Each of the bodies that the simulated scientists have are given real computers to document their journey. They were given these computers by the real scientists. They use the computers to send information on their findings back to the original scientists. The "mental phantasm" statement is further elaborated upon later in the second excerpt you selected as well. While they are the exact same beings mentally, the scientists wonder whether or not some of their copies will fall out of love or perish along the way. It's also important to note that these simulations are currently outside of the Vex network before they are re-inserted to explore. There is even a mention of a Venusian sunset in the background which they wave goodbye to before departing. Finally, in this lore entry it's made quite clear that they are using these simulated versions of themselves to go and explore other timelines.
As we move into the Tree of Probabilities strike, I need to make a distinction incredibly clear. The Tree of Probabilities strike is basically a redo of the story mission of the same name in the Curse of Osiris main campaign.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/tree-of-probabilites
In the story mission, the Cabal are attacking on the outside of the Infinite Forest but it should be noted that the Cabal can't actually enter the Forest. After travelling through the beginning part of the Infinite Forest, the Guardian enters a simulation from the recent past where the Cabal attacked Mercury. The Guardian defeats the Cabal simulations and gets access to the map of the Infinite Forest.
For the strike version of this mission, we go back to the exact same Cabal simulation of the attack which has been restarted. Hence the notion of the Cabal in this group being lost in time. They will continuously attempt to steal the map only to be thwarted each time. The statement about the Cabal simulations leaving the simulation applies here in this strike where they were already killed the first time in the main story so these are just reanimations.
The Infinite Forest is explicitly stated to be containing these as timelines multiple times.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/beyond-infinity
The point here is that even in the verse, they treat these timelines as being real. Panoptes and the Vex are dealing with multiple threats and events that they can't even always account for such as the arrival of Oryx, the Traveller awakening, etc.
The distinction of needing to be in the forest doesn't really matter in my opinion as we are only talking about their powers being at a higher tier in the Forest in the first place. The distinction is made that the entities in the Forest are capable of mortal damage just like anything else in the physical universe. There's fundamentally no difference.
I chose the memory manipulation as a means to show you that even after leaving the Forest if something happened to you inside, you're still affected. Just leaving the area doesn't mean that you are instantly cured. The same would be said for any damage and this also breaks down the difference between the Forest and actual reality.
The ability to simulate something is specifically something that the Vex have regardless of whether or not Quria was using the Sword Logic for other purposes. It's ability to use simulations is because of its Vex physiology, and not because of understanding the Sword Logic or its Taken physiology.
I also found some additional information that's of use here.
The Infinite Forest matter can actually be extracted and taken outside to the point that it's used as a currency.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulation-bloom
The Infinite Forest is also stated to be made of matter.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulation-seed
I want to also be clear that the Infinite Forest isn't the only place that the Vex has which would contain multiple timelines.
The Vault of Glass information as well as the information about the other spaces shows how they affect other timelines or the space-time of the main one directly. The Vault of Glass itself contains multiple realities which has already been described multiple times. This is separate from the forest and can already qualify the Vex for higher regardless of the Forest.
If you look at the statements made by Lakshmi-2 of the Future War Cult, they are already aware of millions if not trillions of other timelines that exist. The Future War Cult has its core descendant from fragments of the Ishtar Collective which were the main ones researching the Vex on Venus if you remember. They are also responsible for detecting that the MIDA-Multi Tool was a weapon from another timeline as well. They are more than qualified in-verse to have access to that kind of information.
https://www.destinypedia.com/Lakshmi-2
The Vault of Glass and the Infinite Forest serve similar purposes albeit they are different methods. Atheon leads the Vex initiative to alter the physical universe and institute themselves as a physical law that is irremovable. The Vex in the VoG are directly manipulating timelines by removing entities that stand counter to their goals. This is the purpose of the Gorgons in the Vault of Glass. The Infinite Forest is used to as Osiris says, "brute force" the future. The Vex are using their ability to simulate and run multiple timelines in parallel to gain an advantage in the material plane. They are similar in that they want to work towards the same future of Vex domination, but they are different.
The point of mentioning both of these places though is to show that the Vex don't just have these hyper-realistic simulations they have real control that extends to other real timelines as well. I'm not saying that they are the same thing.
There seems to be a misunderstanding about the quote here. Each of the bodies that the simulated scientists have are given real computers to document their journey. They were given these computers by the real scientists. They use the computers to send information on their findings back to the original scientists. The "mental phantasm" statement is further elaborated upon later in the second excerpt you selected as well. While they are the exact same beings mentally, the scientists wonder whether or not some of their copies will fall out of love or perish along the way. It's also important to note that these simulations are currently outside of the Vex network before they are re-inserted to explore. There is even a mention of a Venusian sunset in the background which they wave goodbye to before departing. Finally, in this lore entry it's made quite clear that they are using these simulated versions of themselves to go and explore other timelines.
As we move into the Tree of Probabilities strike, I need to make a distinction incredibly clear. The Tree of Probabilities strike is basically a redo of the story mission of the same name in the Curse of Osiris main campaign.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/tree-of-probabilites
In the story mission, the Cabal are attacking on the outside of the Infinite Forest but it should be noted that the Cabal can't actually enter the Forest. After travelling through the beginning part of the Infinite Forest, the Guardian enters a simulation from the recent past where the Cabal attacked Mercury. The Guardian defeats the Cabal simulations and gets access to the map of the Infinite Forest.
For the strike version of this mission, we go back to the exact same Cabal simulation of the attack which has been restarted. Hence the notion of the Cabal in this group being lost in time. They will continuously attempt to steal the map only to be thwarted each time. The statement about the Cabal simulations leaving the simulation applies here in this strike where they were already killed the first time in the main story so these are just reanimations.
The Infinite Forest is explicitly stated to be containing these as timelines multiple times.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/beyond-infinity
The point here is that even in the verse, they treat these timelines as being real. Panoptes and the Vex are dealing with multiple threats and events that they can't even always account for such as the arrival of Oryx, the Traveller awakening, etc.
The distinction of needing to be in the forest doesn't really matter in my opinion as we are only talking about their powers being at a higher tier in the Forest in the first place. The distinction is made that the entities in the Forest are capable of mortal damage just like anything else in the physical universe. There's fundamentally no difference.
I chose the memory manipulation as a means to show you that even after leaving the Forest if something happened to you inside, you're still affected. Just leaving the area doesn't mean that you are instantly cured. The same would be said for any damage and this also breaks down the difference between the Forest and actual reality.
The ability to simulate something is specifically something that the Vex have regardless of whether or not Quria was using the Sword Logic for other purposes. It's ability to use simulations is because of its Vex physiology, and not because of understanding the Sword Logic or its Taken physiology.
I also found some additional information that's of use here.
The Infinite Forest matter can actually be extracted and taken outside to the point that it's used as a currency.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulation-bloom
The Infinite Forest is also stated to be made of matter.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/items/simulation-seed
I want to also be clear that the Infinite Forest isn't the only place that the Vex has which would contain multiple timelines.
The Vault of Glass information as well as the information about the other spaces shows how they affect other timelines or the space-time of the main one directly. The Vault of Glass itself contains multiple realities which has already been described multiple times. This is separate from the forest and can already qualify the Vex for higher regardless of the Forest.
If you look at the statements made by Lakshmi-2 of the Future War Cult, they are already aware of millions if not trillions of other timelines that exist. The Future War Cult has its core descendant from fragments of the Ishtar Collective which were the main ones researching the Vex on Venus if you remember. They are also responsible for detecting that the MIDA-Multi Tool was a weapon from another timeline as well. They are more than qualified in-verse to have access to that kind of information.
https://www.destinypedia.com/Lakshmi-2
Wokistan
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A month later...
If he means the site as a whole, that's really too bad. Contributed a lot and was pleasant to chat with. Hope his irl stuff goes well.
So, I guess this means we upgrading. Once again, big thanks to the rest of the Destiny group for helping out, especially Galaxian. Looks like 2-A Oryx a reality after all. Guess it's only appropriate to end the thread with this:
If he means the site as a whole, that's really too bad. Contributed a lot and was pleasant to chat with. Hope his irl stuff goes well.
So, I guess this means we upgrading. Once again, big thanks to the rest of the Destiny group for helping out, especially Galaxian. Looks like 2-A Oryx a reality after all. Guess it's only appropriate to end the thread with this:
- Status
