Demigra VS Omega Flowey

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't know if Flowey > Frisk, is tehre proof of it?

What, apart from the fact that Flowey was barely scratched by any of Frisks attacks, was casually toying with him until the SOULs rebelled, and is LV 9999?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He outright states that the plan to become Omega Flowey would make him stronger than you (Chara. This was the genocide route)

 

[SSJRyu1]

But you do defeat him in the end, and hold your own for a long time, so the diffrence can't be that vast, although I agree that he should be comparable if not strogner since he is not about to die from you before the souls leave, and states he would be strogner.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Also i still don;t see how your saves equate to a full multiverse, maybe low end 2-B if you made thousands of saves.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You defeat him after he has been nerfed to death 6 times.

 

[The_Everlasting]

And even then he casually undoes it and instakills you a dozen times in a row.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You have successfully shown me Demigra being able to affect all reality in Heroes, but that destroying it takes him time. I have linked a video of a character weaker than Flowey destroying the game's reality in a single hit. I'm pretty sure raw power is heavily in Flowey's favor.

You have not shown Demigra controlling a character comparable to himself. He tries to control the Future Warrior, but fails, and even assuming that Demigra could eventually control him, he was stopped by two characters both weaker than himself.

As an example of sealing, you showed Demigra basically paralyzing someone. This is not the same as sealing them in such a way that they cannot actually do anything.

You showed Demigra's power being stated to affect the "real world", but you did not show that the real world is higher-dimensional nor that it is qualitatively superior to the DB multiverse. A character weaker than Flowey also interacts with the "real world" in a setting where it is treated as outside the game's reality, but this is not very impressive.

You did not show Demigra's immense power boost.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

But you do defeat him in the end, and hold your own for a long time, so the diffrence can't be that vast, although I agree that he should be comparable if not strogner since he is not about to die from you before the souls leave, and states he would be strogner.

He straight up says he was ******* with you the whole time, and undoes everything you do to him just to show how powerless you are.

 

[Why_are_all_the_good_usernames_taken?_rs]

And looks like Ryu is doing a fine job for Demigra.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Demigra's power was growing over time in the game, but if he was not stopped at that moment he would have destroyed the multiverse and real world, the fact his death would ahve stopped it if not for Chamel shows it was under his own power and the lack of his own power reverts it. So at his peak it was 1 shot. This is confirmed when chamel is also capable of peforming the same feat on a whim right after gettign Demigra's power. Also kai of time is holding it all together to durign the chamel battle showing without her it would ahve all exploded and also that she is no pushover, holding the real world and her own together.

https://imgur.com/a/VQsid

They even say the fight with Chamel is not dealing with any gimmicks, just outright a straight up power and battle. Also Demigra fully planned to tank the destruction and come out fine, then make his own world from nothing, as does Chamel.


The real world is said to trancend space of the DBH world/multiverse, and is beyond space and time, so it is trancendant to the multiverse, and treats it like fiction, the fact it is stated trancendant to DBH world implies it is superior. As for higher diemsnions I already talked about that, you don't agree with me on it but I haven't changed my mind on it either, regardless of that he can reach beyond space and time and trancend it to the real world, and thats stated and fact.


So I disagree that Flowey takes raw power, if anything imo Demigra does for trancending teh mutliverse and reaching plaes beyond space and time as well with his pwoer to destroy them to.


Trunks can battle alongside the pattroler and actually help against demon god demigra and other gods in heroes all the time like towa, putine, gravy etc. Also he was trained by Beerus and Whist to and given teh go ahead to fight demigra by them. Also Demigra was going to control the player, if the player could break free he would have, and not needed assistance, Dmeigra also cursed the palyer before to when leavign teh majin emblem onhim btw. Kai of time and Trunks are both powerhouses, kai of time can literally hold together the collapsing DBH and real world, defeated Demigra in the past and can fuse the timelines back together. They are comparable.


Placing somebody into a dark shpere of energy that immobalizes and damages them is sealing, had he the mind to he could easily do anything to them then, like he did to Toki Toki by absorbing him, or simply just leave them there.


Demigra is bested by pattroler and base Goku, then bests Pattroler and SSJ3 God Goku a moment later. SSJ3 is a massive boost (400X officialy)

https://imgur.com/a/X3uQH


So Demigra's power jumped that much in an instant.

Also I covered multiple other instances and ways of stats amping in my previous thread.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1031319

Also i still don't see how some saves equal more than low end multiverse level at best.

So no, Dmeigra still takes it with mind manip, likely he could with sealing or absorbtion to. And imo he should eb able to overpower Flowey anyway and if he nukes flowey along with all floweys saves all at once, which he ahs the range and ability to do, I don;t see flowey coming back from that either. Especially since Demigra's pwoer will only grow durign the battle.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"So at his peak it was 1 shot."

That's not what that translation shows, but it does show his power causing it to collapse.

"Also Demigra fully planned to tank the destruction and come out fine, then make his own world from nothing"

He goes into the Crack of Time when it's about to happen. He doesn't plan on just tanking it, especially when characters who couldn't do so are capable of killing him.

"The real world is said to trancend space of the DBH world/multiverse, and is beyond space and time, so it is trancendant to the multiverse, and treats it like fiction, the fact it is stated trancendant to DBH world implies it is superior."

You have still shown zero proof of this, instead only showing scans where it's treated as another world.

"So I disagree that Flowey takes raw power, if anything imo Demigra does for trancending teh mutliverse and reaching plaes beyond space and time as well with his pwoer to destroy them to."

You can disagree, but I've linked a character below Flowey destroying reality in one shot. Said character also takes the SOUL of a being from beyond their world. You have not actually shown Demigra doing anything close to this. Just that he was going to collapse reality, which isn't even as good of a feat as one-shotting it.

"Also Demigra was going to control the player"

He TRIED to.

"defeated Demigra in the past"

A Demigra weaker than the one we're discussing.

"Placing somebody into a dark shpere of energy that immobalizes and damages them is sealing"

This is like saying Flowey surrounding Frisk in a field of bullets that hurt them if they tried to escape was sealing. Demigra is paralyzing the target, which is only really "sealing" in the loosest possible terms, and is also something that wouldn't work, here.

"Demigra is bested by pattroler and base Goku, then bests Pattroler and SSJ3 God Goku a moment later. SSJ3 is a massive boost (400X officialy)"

You need to provide context for stuff like this. Because I don't recall Demigra growing so much in power as he was powering up/using more of his true power, which he also did in the Crack in Time vs the Future Warrior.

"Also I covered multiple other instances and ways of stats amping in my previous thread."

Nowhere in that OP did you provide information showing Demigra grows in power every second. The best there is that he can absorb energy and perform minor attack debuffs.

"Also i still don't see how some saves equal more than low end multiverse level at best."

One save file isn't a multiverse. It's essentially a timeline. Though Flowey creates a save file that contains multiple of these.

"So no, Dmeigra still takes it with mind manip, likely he could with sealing or absorbtion to."

You have provided mind manipulation that failed on a character of greater strength, sealing that isn't sealing, and absorption of a character that can't fight. He's not taking this based on what you've provided.

 

[SSJRyu1]

his power was going to collapse it, just his power passively at that point, kai of time was struggling to hold it together, he planned to erase history after beating his foes completely, so 1 shot power, not to mention it was not just the multiverse but trancendant places as well beyond time and space like the real world to.

Your talking xenoverse again, he was not using crack of time or time vault at all in heroes, in fact chamel has never even been to those places and also planned to tank it, so that argument is moot for heroes.

It literally says it "transcended space" of the DBH world, aka multiverse, and Trunks is shocked Demigra can reach it despite knowing he has covered the timelines of heroes already. Also they literally show that the DBH lore and history is just mere fiction and games in the real world, there is even a statement about a heroes manga where the author expects us to treat the real world and its inhabitants just like our own, like we are watching the stories unfold beside them, it is literally stated trancendant.

The "Charismas" are people in the real world, and they are to be treated as equal to us who view DB as mere fiction. it is completely separate to the DBH normal multiverse and stated trancendant directly when they say Demigra transcends space of the DBH world to reach it.

https://imgur.com/a/xZu5o

Again, Demigra's capable of collapsing reality via pure power in one shot, as is chamel, and beyond, Flowey is not showing better power, if anything less due to him not exceeding your number of saves which is maybe thousands at best.

Flowey controls a human soul, said human just fell down a sealed mountain to their realm, it is still part of that same timeline as far as I know, so that is not the same, Demigra transcended the space for the multiverse and extended to a place beyond time and space aka the real world.

Demigra was going to control him, he immobilized him and his dark energy was altering the players aura and eyes, and it took kai of time and trunks to break him out of it. Also he literally controlled god level Trunks who can battle the pattroler to when possessed, and battle demigra when not, so he can control comparable powers. Flowey has no showings of mind hax or resistance ot it, he cant even control a few human souls when they feel like leaving, he is not getting out of Dmeigra's mind control unless you have showings of him breaking out of mind manip from guys at his level.

In heroes that past Demigra gains toki toki and god powers and she still helps combat him. Also she holds together the structure of the DBH multiverse and real world during Demigra and Chamel battle, she is not weak, she is very impressive actually. You even use her in heroes as a cast member to combat people like MIra towa etc.

Id disagree, he can use it on the player for damage and immobilizing in battle, but also he seals and absorbs toki toki with this technique instead of releasing, so it can clearly lead to much more permanent incap.

Demigra literally fights pattroler and base Goku, they push him down and damage him, then he goes to the time nest, they follow, he powers up and knocks them both out in one attack, including SSJ3 Goku. Clearly he powers up ALOT. And the other statements explain why since he has multiple ways to gain power, from absorbing kiri over time, to battle damage kiri like in the buu arc they did, to absorbing energy etc. In the crack of time he still overpowers the player and Goku, but as we know Player has the ability to grow insanely fast to, hence why he wins in the end.

I never said he gains power every second, I said he gains power as the battle goes on via various means, he gets it from kiri via battle damage like the buu meter did in DBZ, slowly over time like in the crack of time, absorbing energy, absorbing clones, and there are some others I found recently to as special skills in heroes that aren't in that post, but those plus his feat of jumping from base Goku to above SSJ3 goku level is enough proof and explanation that his power will continue to grow multiple ways and has done so before in large jumps.

That's what I mean, I don't see how Flowey making save files or destroying yours equates to countless timelines. At best you might have made like thousands of saves for him to be able to nuke, but you talk as if he can nuke 10^500 timelines. Demigra literally was warping and can nuke a whole multiverse of possibilities that was growing so large it was overflowing from his time paradoxes. And he transcends the space time of that and reaches into the real world beyond it to. I just see Demigra's feat as more impressive due to pure scale. And in Heroes a timeline holds all 12 macrocosms, pocket universes and even the infinite void world btw.

Trunks is on his level and he controls him, that is enough alone to control flowey who has literally no showings to defend against it. the pattroler is getting controlled and unable to defend, kai of time even says his magic wont work anymore, as in it would have before she and trunks intervene. willpower wont help, vegeta and Broly couldn't break it even though they have used willpower to get outta dodge before, and even Trunks who can hurt demigra and fight the patroller could barely speak when he was beat down and Demigra was distracted fighting the player.

Toki Toki can create timelines, reset the multiverse and vito demigra's powers, if he can't escape Demigras sealing/absorbtion Flowey can't since he hs no showings of doing so to a similar technique. And we see such techniques work on pattroler in combat to backing up it is combat applicable.

In the end though mind manip is Floweys undeniable downfall, it is not shaky in the least that he succumbs to it since he has no defence to it and Dmeigra has controlled guys with resistance to it before like vegeta and broly and also guys of his level like trunks, and was going to do the same to the pattroler.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There is so, so much wrong with this post that I feel I really need to address most of it.

• "his power was going to collapse it, just his power passively at that point, kai of time was struggling to hold it together, he planned to erase history after beating his foes completely, so 1 shot power"

His influence is what's going to cause the collapse, in the first place. It's how he destroys reality, regardless of if you're stopping him or not. It's not like he has some direct attack that can just collapse reality, at that point. He wouldn't have needed to fight the heroes, nor would SKoT have been able to prevent the collapse if him putting any effort into it would have made it an inevitability. He is not "2-B via existing, higher when trying" or something like that.

• "Your talking xenoverse again, he was not using crack of time or time vault at all in heroes, in fact chamel has never even been to those places and also planned to tank it, so that argument is moot for heroes."

Then what are you using as an example? Neither Chamel nor Demigra are ever hit with a reality destroying attack or the full force of reality collapsing. They are the ones causing it. The entirety of reality collapsing, as if done in one attack all at once, is not scaled completely to their durability, unless it is something done to them.

• "It literally says it "transcended space" of the DBH world"

Transcending =/= going up an entire degree of infinity. There's a reason we don't automatically rank characters such as Arceus as High 2-A due to simply transcending its multiverse.

• "Also they literally show that the DBH lore and history is just mere fiction and games in the real world, there is even a statement about a heroes manga where the author expects us to treat the real world and its inhabitants just like our own, like we are watching the stories unfold beside them, it is literally stated trancendant."

No, it doesn't. You are conflating the author speaking to readers as readers of the manga with the author speaking of characters as viewers of the game. Never is this world treated as higher-dimensional (see literally every interaction between the player character and everyone else). But hey, since you seem so fond of these pointless reality-fiction feats, here's a character weaker than Flowey basically holding you ransom for your soul. And, unlike Heroes, the player here is treated as a transcendent being who is unaffected by what goes on in the game's reality and is capable of controlling its main character.

• "Flowey is not showing better power, if anything less due to him not exceeding your number of saves which is maybe thousands at best."

Flowey exceeds a character whose feat is "casually destroying the game's reality and all its saves in one shot". And "thousands at best"? Before Frisk came along, Flowey used the SAVE function to create enough timelines that he lived out every possible instance of every scenario in the Underground to such a level that he knew with perfect clarity what anyone there would do with any given input. That's a lot more than "thousands".

• "Flowey controls a human soul"

Six, which become exponentially more powerful with each one brought together.

• "said human just fell down a sealed mountain to their realm, it is still part of that same timeline as far as I know, so that is not the same"

I don't even know what you're saying, with this.

• "Demigra transcended the space for the multiverse and extended to a place beyond time and space aka the real world."

Cool, so again, something accomplished by a character below Flowey.

• "Demigra was going to control him"

Let's assume he actually was. Notice how the FW actually resisted? Notice how it took time? Because if it's not instant, it's not working on someone who possesses the power of "undo anything that has just been done to me via sheer determination".

• "he cant even control a few human souls when they feel like leaving"

This is so out of context and lacking in any understanding of the world's rules that I don't know how one is supposed to even respond to this.

• "he is not getting out of Dmeigra's mind control unless you have showings of him breaking out of mind manip from guys at his level."

Alright, man. Let's give you this. Let's say Demigra's mind control works on people equal to or stronger than him completely and utterly unless they can resist it. Do you know what one of Flowey's main powers is? Resetting his own status, which he can do instantly as soon as Demigra even tries to control him. This is of course also ignoring that his power stems from DETERMINATION and willpower, which both Trunks and the FW were able to resist Demigra's influence with, to varying degrees.

• "n heroes that past Demigra gains toki toki and god powers and she still helps combat him."

This having already happened is another thing I asked you to show, before.

• "but also he seals and absorbs toki toki with this technique instead of releasing"

Toki Toki is not a fighter, and can not properly resist. That's what I've been saying multiple times. Hell, even after Demigra absorbs it, Toki Toki still uses its powers to save the FW.

• "he powers up and knocks them both out in one attack, including SSJ3 Goku. Clearly he powers up ALOT"

My point is that you have been making it sound like he quickly gains enough power to be out of a comparable opponent's league, which isn't the case. He goes from being comparable but a bit weaker than the FW to comparable but a bit stronger, and even this fluctuates throughout the battle, as the FW then competes with his supposedly even stronger form without powering up.

• "I never said he gains power every second, I said he gains power as the battle goes on via various means, he gets it from kiri via battle damage like the buu meter did in DBZ, slowly over time like in the crack of time, absorbing energy, absorbing clones, and there are some others I found recently to as special skills in heroes that aren't in that post, but those plus his feat of jumping from base Goku to above SSJ3 goku level is enough proof and explanation that his power will continue to grow multiple ways and has done so before in large jumps."

You said he "gains power constantly". Having multiple ways to grow stronger is not constantly gaining power. And even so, you are forgetting that he's fighting a character who has the power to reset his progress.

• "That's what I mean, I don't see how Flowey making save files or destroying yours equates to countless timelines."

At no point in this thread, nor any others, has this been used as proof of Flowey destroying countless timelines. He already scales to a weaker character for that. This is just to show Flowey can override and create his own, even in the absence of others.

• "And in Heroes a timeline holds all 12 macrocosms, pocket universes and even the infinite void world btw."

That doesn't make the timeline any more impressive if they all still share one.

• "Trunks is on his level"

He's kinda not. What does he do in any meaningful capacity to Demigra other than distracting him when he's trying to control the FW? He's not Goku.

• "the pattroler is getting controlled and unable to defend"

Except for the part where they resist being mind controlled, albeit while being stuck in place.

• "willpower wont help, vegeta and Broly couldn't break it even though they have used willpower to get outta dodge before"

Neither character was actively aware nor actively opposed to what Demigra was doing.

• "even Trunks who can hurt demigra and fight the patroller"

This is an extremely bad way of scaling Trunks' power. I wouldn't argue Papyrus is 2-B because he could fight and damage Frisk while under Asriel's control. One, like Trunks, he's the player character's friend who they're trying to not harm in any meaningful capacity. Two, even ignoring that, he's being boosted by an outside source, which would not scale to his power prior to this boost.

• "Toki Toki can create timelines, reset the multiverse and vito demigra's powers"

Yes. But he can't actually fight.

• " if he can't escape Demigras sealing/absorbtion Flowey can't since he hs no showings of doing so to a similar technique"

Except, as you just said in your previous sentence, he could override Demigra's powers while he was absorbed. There is zero reason Flowey couldn't just do the same, assuming Demigra can absorb him, at all.

• "In the end though mind manip is Floweys undeniable downfall"

Except it's not. We've seen Demigra's mind control be resisted to a low degree by a character weaker than him, resisted far more by a character comparable to him, and flat out denied by a character notably superior to him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Being real, ignoring every other thing said in this thread, I can say what the most likely outcome is, here.

Flowey undoes every potentially hazardous thing Demigra does to him, basically knowing everything he'll do before he actually does it, and then wails on him with attacks until he's dead.

Because Flowey's main power is save scumming.

And you know what Demigra has actively shown vulnerability to?

Having the timeline he's in at the moment be reset or altered.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Azathoth in a undertale thread = /thread

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I vote Flowey for Azzy's reasons

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The flower beats the demon for Azzy's reasons. Destroys Demigra in time manipulation, stronger, just as smart, and well...the first reason: time manipulation. Flower eventually destroys his SOUL with Danmaku and save scumming

 

[SSJRyu1]

His existence and energy was collapsing it without him actually attacking, passively, and he was going to force the collapse in 1 shot at his peak, hence why he said he would kill them first then collapse it, but she was holding it together during the battle further showing that tier can control and halt/destroy on that level all at once further. He had to fight them since they would not just let him destroy it.

Demigra was going to tank the multiverse and real world collapsing on top of him, and then make his own from nothing after in heroes, that is a direct durability to be able to do that. Chamel as well was going to tank it to after with demigras power.

I never said you have to accept it as infinitely above, but you do have to accept it as above baseline multiversal since it is transcendent and not just another timeline.

That doesn't prove anything from that scene unless you have better context to prove your soul is higher dimensional. So he holds a soul for ransom, nothing suggests that you are transcendent to the multiverse, you still require the saves to play, you still are confined to the undertale verse. I don't see how that proves your soul is higher dimensional. The real world in DBH is actually stated transcendent to time and space and to be in another dimension, even if you don't take it as literal higher dimensional it is still transcendent to the multiverse.

Flowey living scenarios is unquantified in terms of numbers, we don't know to what degree he lived out said scenarios or how many so at best you can quantify him by the number of your saves. Even if he did a billion runs, it would still be low end multiversal. At best we can say he is baseline multiversal without head canon.

Still just a human soul, nothing to special, and he can't even make them stay if they want to leave.

Flowey didn't reach somewhere beyond the multiverse, he simply survives without it making him baseline multiversal, Demigra transcends it and goes to a place beyond the multiverse which he can destroy as well, he is beyond baseline multiversal easily. imo Demigra is stronger but if we hype flowey and downplay Demigra they are still both multiversal, flowey certainly isn't stronger.

Trunks was put under complete control almost instantly, and while they are getting controlled they are unable to act or escape, and most guys are instantly put under. Trunks can't even talk without taking a beating, and having demigra distracted by fighting the patroller. And he still couldn't act. vegeta, and broly have escaped mind control due to willpower before but it was not useful to escape Demigra's, even buu who was immune to babidis control was controlled. He already can control guys on his level, and guys with resistance via magic or willpower, Flowey has no showings of resistance to mind control so he won't escape it. Also a side note Demigra's energy can still act even if he dies, and control people anywhere in or out of the multiverse, make mirages, warp things, pool energy for when he resurrects, bring back the dead to fight for him etc.

Toki TOki can still nullify powers against others will, and has so much raw power he can reset the multiverse and create timelines, clearly he can resist Demigra yet fails to stop himself from being absorbed, and the pattroler has been effected by the same sealing to during combat. Not that the ability is really that important for the battle though since Mind control alone is enough and has better showings in combat.

I was not lying, he passively gained power over time in the crack of time, and gains power via kiri in multiple ways, and well as subject to huge leaps like ging from base Goku level to above SSJ3 Goku level. The future warrior simply jumps in power in a similar way. Also Demigra passively nsupresses the opponents powers with his dark energy and can do so more effectively via direct attacks, so flowey nerfing him would likely be nerfed in the same vein.

If your talking about frisk how does he destroy countless timelines, it was my understanding he destroys your saves, which aren't countless.

They all have other worlds which is separate space time, and void world separate infinite space time, as well as pocket universes and the 12 normal ones. It is more impressive, easily 2C in size for each full timeline and all the stuff in it.

Trunks is capable of fighting the pattroler and doing well when under demigras control, and he is able to assist the patroller in fighting demigra to and damage him, and he passed beerus and whis training just like you did, and in heroes he is your main team mate through most of your battles including against multiple demon gods and god tiers. So he is comparable.

Pattroler is unable to do anything and was changing in aura and eyes, so he was not escaping that and could not act.

Vegeta is not a bad guy so that's wrong, he is clearly doing stuff against his will, same with the others, and broly hates being controlled, and if he could have broken the control he would have, Buu simply was immune to his control but could not stop. Demigra can control guys who have resistance via willpower and magic and guys on his level, Flowey has no showings of mind hax or resistance to it so I have no reason to believe he will be able to resist it.

Whether you use the demigra controlled trunks or not Trunks himself still assists in the fight with Demigra and can damage him, and he fights multiple god tiers through heroes with you, and he legit has reasoning for being that strong, training with beerus and Whis.

If TOki TOki can vito Demigra's powers but can't stop being absorbed then logically Demgira can absorb people against their will who have the power to resist and negate attacks and skills.

Toki Toki gave Demigra his power, but in heroes he already has it without Toki Toki, and even vetoing the powers they cannot escape, so since flowey isn't the source of Demigra's power he can't vito it, and even if he could he is still stuck and unable to escape.

In the end Demigra can control guys on his level, and also guys with resistance via willpower and magic. The only times he has not been successful is when the opponent was vastly stronger like beerus and pre toki toki demigra, or when other intervened like Trunks and kai of time undoing the spell before it took hold. And even then pattroler could not stop it by himself.

Anyhow, I am finding this to be getting repetitive, and I don't want to aggravate myself or have others get aggravated with this, so this will be my last post on the topic as I have said what I wanted to say.

Clearly Demigra has similar powers to floweys, he could tank the multiverse and real world collapsing on him, he has space time and reality manip and time paradox immunity as well as his own soul manip so flowey isn't haxing him out, and he can easily heal himself, absorb life energy, get stronger by various means, suppress floweys powers, and has mind control which flowey has no defense against, even if Demigra died he would resurrect stronger, and his energy could control flowey in the mean time, so it is obvious to me he would win.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Still just a human soul, nothing to special, and he can't even make them stay if they want to leave.

Out of all the wrong things stated here, this is by far the most wrong. It is extreme misrepresentation of actual events when, even lowballing everything to all hell, human SOULs have shown to tank timeline-busting attacks and restore reality in an instant.

Anyway, we can stop here if you want, but I will state that most importantly, even ignoring every single other thing, one of Flowey's main powers is shown to be something Demigra is vulnerable to (final chapter of Xenoverse 1, posted above), and that he cannot directly counter. It is also something that no adequate counter has been provided for in this thread.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yes I believe we have adequately discussed the topic and given the relevant points. Although it is important to address that other point I suppose.

If your referring to toki toki vetoing him, that is no longer a weakness in heroes, and he is unaffected by changes in timelines like even the death of his old self or changes to his past, or even erasure of the multiverse. So that won't work here.

I still see no reasonable proof for a counter for the mind manip, or a hax he doesn't also posses or have a way to counter, and even if he died his energy can still do all the stuff he can and he would resurrect stronger. So imo he clearly wins.

But enough about that, I said what I wanted to on the topic.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm not referring to paradox immunity, but Flowey actually pulling the timeline back, as the FW did with Toki Toki's help.

"I still see no reasonable proof for a counter for the mind manip"

As I said, even giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming this would have fully worked on the FW and will work similarly on Flowey, if it's not instant (which it isn't), it might as well be nothing, as Flowey just hits the undo button.

As for:

"unaffected by changes in timelines like even the death of his old self or changes to his past, or even erasure of the multiverse."

"even if he died his energy can still do all the stuff he can and he would resurrect stronger."

Actual proof is needed for this to be a factor. As well as resurrecting in a reasonable timeframe (not millions of years later).

 

[SSJRyu1]

well demigra controls time and space, can warp the timeliens of the multiverse in heroes all at once, is outside the flow of time normally, and is unaffected by changes to the timelines, so I don't see timeline manip or rewind working since he is not part of said timeline in the first place and can also control it to. Toki Toki was a special case since he was the source of demigra's powers, which is no longer a weakness.

It is instant normally like with trunks, and you can't escape it anyway when your caught without outside help, flowey can't just reset when he is already immobilized and has his mind put under Demigra's control. Theres no reason he can't catch flowey with it, especially since he can launch it from any distance even outside the multiverse, or even his energy can do it for him.

In heroes when he resurrects after his first defeat it all happens in the same saga, so it is a matter of days at most, so he could do it, and his energy and clones etc can still act while hes dead. Also kai of time thinks he and towa could come back at any time and they have to watch out for them. Towa who uses the same magic and is the same race but weaker at the time is even specified to be able to come back just because of hatred to.

https://imgur.com/a/BkYqf

https://imgur.com/a/r5qTa

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"well demigra controls time and space, can warp the timeliens of the multiverse in heroes all at once, is outside the flow of time normally, and is unaffected by changes to the timelines, so I don't see timeline manip working."

Wasn't all of this part of his powerset prior to absorbing Toki Toki? And even if it was the source of his new powers, it would not suddenly and completely nullify everything he was supposedly unaffected by prior.

"It is instant normally like with trunks"

Again, using the example of someone who is actually comparable (FW), in which case it is quite explicitly shown to not be instant.

"and you can't escape it anyway when your caught without outside help. Theres no reason he can't catch flowey with it, especially since he can launch it from any distance even outside the multiverse, or even his energy can do it for him."

Flowey does not need to move to use his abilities.

"In heroes when he resurrects after his first defeat it all happens in the same saga, so it is a matter of days at most, so he could do it, and his energy and clones etc can still act while hes dead."

Isn't he resurrecting after being killed way, way back in time? Because that makes a huge difference.

 

[SSJRyu1]

no, he did not have near as much control over time and space prior, and his control has grown substantially since then to. Now he has time paradox immunity, above multiversal time space warping, exists outside the flow of time, an no toki toki to circumvent him. I don't see either winning with space time, soul or reality warping as they both have strong showings with it.

trunks is comparable, he did the same training as pattroler and can damage demigra and help fight him in that battle. Also he battles gods in DBH, he wails on time breaker vegeta who helps beat demigra and is comparable to Xeno Goku who forced Demigra into makyoko form, and he is one of the ones who helps beat demigra to, and he takes on demon gods like putine and gravy to helping to fight them. He has more than shown god tier power.

https://youtu.be/D2iIQYgY4W0?t=3199

Flowey would be under his control is the issue like trunks was in an instant, so he would not have the option to choose to use his abilities. The pattroler was already glazed over like a vegetable and unable to act, being turned and giving off dark energy, Flowey wont get out of it, he ahs nothing to suggest he will.

Demigra resurrects a few times actually, first time is the start of the story, where he resurrects in the past despite dying in the future some time, then he resurrects in the present at his castle right after and controls vegeta who is snooping around, then he also is stated by kai of time ot be able to resurrect at any time when she says they have to watch for him and towa returning in the near term. Also it si said that that magic allows Towa to resurrect just due to hatred after she recently had died, so its a bit confusing but basically he can resurrect in the past or present or close future going by the multiple showings. All he really needs is to have hatred tbh, which he does in spades.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"no, he did not have near as much control over time and space prior, and his control has grown substantially since then to."

Yes, but it is not about how much stronger he got, but that he already possessed said powers to a lesser degree.

"Now he has time paradox immunity, above multiversal time space warping, exists outside the flow of time, an no toki toki to circumvent him."

Minus Toki Toki, he had all of this back in Xenoverse, and Toki Toki didn't have to shut him down or limit any abilities to pull off its rescue plan. It simply aided the FW. It did not directly do anything to Demigra.

"Also he battles gods in DBH, he wails on time breaker vegeta who helps beat demigra and is comparable to Xeno Goku who forced Demigra into makyoko form"

Okay but where, though? Watching the clip you linked, Beat and Xeno Goku do the most actual fighting with Demigra, and Trunks gets immediately punched away.

"Flowey would be under his control is the issue like trunks was in an instant, so he would not have the option to choose to use his abilities. The pattroler was already glazed over like a vegetable and unable to act, being turned and giving off dark energy, Flowey wont get out of it, he ahs nothing to suggest he will."

Cool. I'll say it again. Provide literally any proof of this. Trunks managed to briefly think for himself. The FW was paralyzed but resisted control. Beerus was totally unaffected. Pick any of these options. Because Flowey needs a single thought to undo this, and any potential damage done during it, assuming it even lasts that long. He does this while dying just to mess with you.

"Demigra resurrects a few times actually, first time is the start of the story, where he resurrects in the past despite dying in the future some time, then he resurrects in the present at his castle right after and controls vegeta who is snooping around, then he also is stated by kai of time ot be able to resurrect at any time when she says they have to watch for him and towa returning in the near term."

So resurrecting in the past and resurrecting in the present after being killed in the past. The problem here is that because there are multiple time periods involved, there is no time frame. Though aside from that, SKoT does say in the picture you linked above that Demigra's resurrection can be prevented.

"Also it si said that that magic allows Towa to resurrect just due to hatred after she recently had died, so its a bit confusing but basically he can resurrect in the past or present or close future going by the multiple showings. All he really needs is to have hatred tbh, which he does in spades."

Okay, and is his resurrection exactly the same as Towa's? Because Towa revives in an entirely new form.

 

[SSJRyu1]

The degree of control is important. He shows direct paradox immunity in heroes for the first time, and no longer is hampered by toki toki. the fact is being outside the flow of time alone logically negs time rewind, add in control of time for himself on multiversal levels, paradox immunity and such and it's unrealistic and illogical to say Fowey can just rewind him against his will when he would not even be part of the flow of time or suceptable to alterations in it and has control of it to.

Id disagree, Toki Toki rewound Demigra's progress to, altering his present self from his recent past self, obviously he had to have vetoed Demigra's power to do this since normally it logically wouldn't work on Demigra based on his abilities, and doesn't work in heroes when they try to alter his past self. Either toki toki thing is a inconsistency, since that is the only time it happens, and his more recent versions, as well as past showings and skill statements would make that impossible and illogical, or TOki Toki took his power back and suppressed Demgira's temporarily. Either way it should not be a factor in regards to Heroes Demigra who clearly is not susceptible to changes or alterations in time, and is outside the flow of time and controls it.

Trunks manages to fight with xeno vegeta who is under Demigra's control and counter and punch into his abdomin, and xeno Vegeta is equal to xeno Goku. Also btw Demigra controls xeno Vegeta, so there is more proof btw. Also he is one of your party through almost all the missions and helps you battle god tiers through the game.

Future warrior could not act and was seemingly unconscious or in a vegetable like state, also trunks was put under instantly. Flowey hs no defense against it, nothing suggests he would know its coming first off, or be able to resist at all. Saying he might know its coming and undo it because it might take some time, which happens once and is questionable if pattroler could even think at that point is reaching, we both know he has no showings to actually resist the skill and probably wouldn't even try at first even if he got a chance since he fools around alot.

It is hard since we are dealing with a guy who is outside the flow of time, so time has little meaning to him tbh. The fact he can resurrect in the present or past, and according to kai of time near future suggests he can pick where and when he resurrects. We know Towa just resurrects out of hate, Demigra simply seems to come back outta nowhere, and kai of time lumps there ress abilities together, and they use the same magic and powers, so it is likely he simply resurrects the same way. Towa did indeed come back in a new form, and come to think of it after resurrecting Demigra also gained a new form to in heroes. But anyway, since he seems to be able to choose where and when he comes back multiple times, and kai of time thought he could come back in the near future again, it is imo safe to say it is combat applicable and reusable. Kai of time does say she wants to prevent another reappearance of them, but I would think that most likely means if they respawn kill them right away, after all, that's what happens with demon goddess towa when she ress again, other than that they don't really specify on that and stopping somebody who can come back from just hatred is not easy to do, or even detect I would think.

I would say yes, Demigra also gains a new form in heroes when resurrecting, the makyoko form, and they both use demon god magic, same race, lumped together by kai of time in terms of coming back, same type of evil energy. They share most skills and power source actually.