DELTARUNE; Chapter 3 & 4 !!!SPOILER!!! Discussion Thread

[BatFellow]

Speed of sound is pretty consistent

Chapter 1 has Susie intercepting before Lancer can hear Ralsei's kind words, there are meowing sound waves you dodge in Chapter 2, Chapter 4 you dodge music note waves

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

Gerson walking out of the shadows, finally revealing that Burgerpants went all out on one of his afterimages.

gerson: Gya ha hah! You didn't even land a finger on me-

burgerpants: PIZZARINA!!! KINETIC ENERGY TRAVEL SPEED ATTACK!!!!!!!!

gerson: wha-

 

[Agnaa]

Well, the sound waves appear to move really slowly even when nobody is moving. Plus Susie dodges that attack while blind.

So either: Susie views sound waves as very slow (which would make sense if she's relativistic), or these aren't really sound waves.

Those scans are (planned to be used as) justification for echolocation, which I think is fair. But if those aren't sound, then it wouldn't be.

And they're not shown to be as slow as they would be for rela characters. You can calculate their speed based on those waves being sound, and you get nowhere near that high. They'd need to literally be moving 100,000x faster than the sound waves to be relativistic.

Finally, if it's sound, it moves regardless of whether characters do.

 

[Comiphorous]

Those scans are (planned to be used as) justification for echolocation, which I think is fair. But if those aren't sound, then it wouldn't be.

And they're not shown to be as slow as they would be for rela characters. You can calculate their speed based on those waves being sound, and you get nowhere near that high. They'd need to literally be moving 100,000x faster than the sound waves to be relativistic.

Finally, if it's sound, it moves regardless of whether characters do.

have we considered that it would look stupid as hell from a game design standpoint if Kris and Co. were moving 100,000x faster than the echolocation allowing them to see at all would be?

Like i feel like compared to the supersonic, transonic, relativistic feats shown, them being given the ability to see here isn't that bad.

 

[Agnaa]

have we considered that it would look stupid as hell from a game design standpoint if Kris and Co. were moving 100,000x faster than the echolocation allowing them to see at all would be?

Like i feel like compared to the supersonic, transonic, relativistic feats shown, them being given the ability to see here isn't that bad.

I think that cuts both ways.

Wouldn't it be very silly if a projectile-dodging game with technology-based and darkness-based enemies either couldn't have any lasers or light, or would have them always be 0-frame?

If you think that one anti-feat isn't enough to outweigh the relativistic feats, then fair enough. I'm not saying it should automatically trump any number of relativistic feats. Just that It Exists as an anti-feat, it'll only be relevant if not enough relativistic feats stand.

 

[Comiphorous]

I think that cuts both ways.

Wouldn't it be very silly if a projectile-dodging game with technology-based and darkness-based enemies either couldn't have any lasers or light, or would have them always be 0-frame?

If you think that one anti-feat isn't enough to outweigh the relativistic feats, then fair enough. I'm not saying it should automatically trump any number of relativistic feats. Just that It Exists as an anti-feat, it'll only be relevant if not enough relativistic feats stand.

depends on the anti-feat for me personally, but generally i like having a few more to rule down a feat.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do not think that Titans being limited to destroy the Earth is a limitation to 4-A, as we have many other works of fiction with even Tier 1 things limiting themselves at dealing Tier 8/7 damage at best even when serious (COUGH, COUGH, COUGH)

 

[RinneItachi]

Just beat Chapter 3, and I gotta say, it was a good time! Might be my favorite chapter, though maybe not; the music didn’t really hit that much for me. Probably won’t get to Chapter 4 till tomorrow because the Roaring Knight secret fight is ******* aids lol.

Edit: Really hoping Tenna isn’t dead. He’s like neck and neck with queen for my favorite “main chapter villains”.

Chapter 3 is peak in every way BESIDES the music tbh. Like the music is still good but for Toby Fox standards it's a bit below my expectations admittedly. And honestly I personally recommend going back later to beat the RK, it doesn't really effect Chapter 4 at all outside of like 3 new lines of dialogue that I won't spoil, so it's not a high priority. That MF is HARRRD.

I love Tenna. Won't spoil his fate.

 

[RinneItachi]

Slow down your soul with or whatever the equivalent is on your console. It's also called the "focus" button.
Excellent for dodging those precise attacks!

What...all those deaths and I didn't know this....

 

[StrymULTRA]

I love Tenna. Won't spoil his fate.

This is the SPOILER Thread lmao.

Just say that he dies unless you recruited everyone.

 

[RinneItachi]

Relativistic DR has become consistent with the larger volume of light based things to measure against, Dark Fountains are 4-A, Titans are practically Dark Fountains and is thus a bridge to scale the main cast to 4-A, and lastly there’s Subsonic LW Susie/Transonic Burgerpants and an 8-C feat from Elnina (very exciting compared to everything else, I know)

I haven’t been paying attention very well so there’s prob things I missed

I can see relativistic though it's contentious. Anyways Dark World cosmology scaling is very iffy because while the Dark World's are technically actual "places", they're also not and disappear when the Dark Fountain is closed. The Dark Fountain doesn't literally create an ACTUAL pocket dimension with a universe in it, it creates a physical yet illusory plane based on what its darkness comes into contact with. It's debatable whether or not those are actual, genuine stars in the first place, and if they are, it's, in my opinion, quite a significant jump to say that Titan's, which are sort of a physical manifestation, of a Dark Fountain, would just automatically scale to this without further reasoning, plus it's so inconsistent for the Fun Gang's scaling that I don't think I could properly describe it in words just how inconsistent it is. I think we're just getting a little excited due to the prospect of a massive buff to the verse. We should probably start by focusing on the surface level information we have on the Titan and working from there.

Everything else I'm on board with.

I think we already separate Light World and Dark World on character profiles btw right. Cause unfortunately a considerable anti-feat is Susie consistently not being able to break steel in the Light World despite her evidently being rather physically strong compared to most Lightner's we know. Yet her feats in the Dark World don't seem consistent with that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyways Dark World cosmology scaling is very iffy because while the Dark World's are technically actual "places", they're also not and disappear when the Dark Fountain is closed. The Dark Fountain doesn't literally create an ACTUAL pocket dimension with a universe in it, it creates a physical yet illusory plane based on what its darkness comes into contact with. It's debatable whether or not those are actual, genuine stars in the first place, and if they are, it's, in my opinion, quite a significant jump to say that Titan's, which are sort of a physical manifestation, of a Dark Fountain, would just automatically scale to this without further reasoning, plus it's so inconsistent for the Fun Gang's scaling that I don't think I could properly describe it in words just how inconsistent it is.

1. We use Reality Equalization, otherwise we have 11-C OMORI or 10-C SAO.
2. The stars have to be real because they're outside the studio where every special effect is made. Besides they cannot be faker than fake anyway.
3. The 4-A is inconsistent only because the jump is not that apparent, but I do want to remember that Frisk jumps from High 8-C+ to 2-B by simply reaching LV 20 from 19. So them having a jump that big from LV 3 to 4 is not even new from Toby Fox.

 

[RinneItachi]

This is the SPOILER Thread lmao.

Just say that he dies unless you recruited everyone.

Well I don't wanna say spoilers directly to someone who is saying they don't know the thing in question.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well I don't wanna say spoilers directly to someone who is saying they don't know the thing in question.

I mean their fault for coming here. I avoided internet until I completed almost everything, to say.

 

[RinneItachi]

1. We use Reality Equalization, otherwise we have 11-C OMORI or 10-C SAO.
2. The stars have to be real because they're outside the studio where every special effect is made. Besides they cannot be faker than fake anyway.
3. The 4-A is inconsistent only because the jump is not that apparent, but I do want to remember that Frisk jumps from High 8-C+ to 2-B by simply reaching LV 20 from 19. So them having a jump that big from LV 3 to 4 is not even new from Toby Fox.

That's not what I'm talking about, that's also not really what the Dark World's are. The Dark World's ARE real places, it's not just Kris and Susie's imagination, it's just that they aren't as real as the Light World, because they exist temporarily and are created by the presence of the overwhelming, encompassing darkness that a Dark Fountain spews out in its nearby surroundings, transforming everything in the environment, and entering this darkness takes you into the temporary world created through this process. There's an entire list of reasons I could give as to why I disagree with the 4-A rating beyond this but I'm not looking to spend much time debating on it.

What does this even mean.

Well this simply isn't true. The 4-A rating is inconsistent because there is nothing in the entire rest of Deltarune that approaches even city level and there's consistent anti-feats/statements as well. As for the Frisk comparison, Frisk is never 2-B at any point, Chara is separate from Frisk, and it's not really made clear what makes Chara powerful enough to perform the feat in question, it's not guaranteed to be because of the LV19-20 gap. Also we don't have a whole bucket of anti-feats against 2-B which makes it less inconsistent. (Also I don't agree with Frisk's Vs. Battles Wiki rating)

It kind of is. The only strength jump I know of in Toby's works even close to this is Asriel getting infinitely more powerful with the equivalent of 7 human souls, but that's obviously an intentionally exponential difference. And the Genocide Route analogy I just don't agree with. And the main point is that there's not JUST a lack of consistency in the 4-A argument, it's that the 4-A argument itself is lacking in concrete evidence. It's extrapolative, vague, and just inconsistent to boot. Not one thing or the other.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's not what I'm talking about, that's also not really what the Dark World's are. The Dark World's ARE real places, it's not just Kris and Susie's imagination, it's just that they aren't as real as the Light World, because they exist temporarily and are created by the presence of the overwhelming, encompassing darkness that a Dark Fountain spews out in its nearby surroundings, transforming everything in the environment, and entering this darkness takes you into the temporary world created through this process. There's an entire list of reasons I could give as to why I disagree with the 4-A rating beyond this but I'm not looking to spend much time debating on it.

This only proves that the Dark World is not 1:1 with the place it's based on, so it's not an argument.

What does this even mean.

Stars have to be real because the Dark Worlds are already fake and unreal to begin with, they cannot be more illusory than the Dark World itself.

As for the Frisk comparison, Frisk is never 2-B at any point

What the **** are you even talking about.

And the main point is that there's not JUST a lack of consistency in the 4-A argument, it's that the 4-A argument itself is lacking in concrete evidence. It's extrapolative, vague, and just inconsistent to boot. Not one thing or the other.

And those anti-feats in question being...?

 

[RinneItachi]

This only proves that the Dark World is not 1:1 with the place it's based on, so it's not an argument.

I never said it was and that wasn't my argument?

Stars have to be real because the Dark Worlds are already fake and unreal to begin with, they cannot be more illusory than the Dark World itself.

The stars are apart of said fake world, what. You're not even making sense lol.

What the **** are you even talking about.

What's this supposed to mean? I disagree with Frisk's rating, it means absolutely nothing to me. Also the description for Frisk's 2-B rating is not about the LV19-20 gap.

And those anti-feats in question being...?

What? You want me to list them off one by one? Yeah, I ain't doing that. I already said I'm not about to sit here and debate this for a long time, not worth it to me. Anyways you haven't even addressed the main points of my argument so I don't see a reason to continue this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The stars are apart of said fake world, what. You're not even making sense lol.

What I mean is that you cannot say that the stars are invalid because they're fake just because their world is. If you equalize stuff to the "fakeness" of the Dark Worlds in threads, then if the stars are real due to them being as real as the Dark World in question.

You either accept the stars being real, or argue that the Dark Worlds are 11-C. No in-between.

What's this supposed to mean? I disagree with Frisk's rating, it means absolutely nothing to me. Also the description for Frisk's 2-B rating is not about the LV19-20 gap.

The thing is that they can reach the Absolute only at LV 20 so...

What? You want me to list them off one by one?

There are people who went as far to make a 140 pages imgur album just for Kratos, so...

 

[RinneItachi]

What I mean is that you cannot say that the stars are invalid because they're fake just because their world is. If you equalize stuff to the "fakeness" of the Dark Worlds in threads, then if the stars are real due to them being as real as the Dark World in question.

That's not what I was saying necessarily, though that in and of itself is an argument of its own.

You either accept the stars being real, or argue that the Dark Worlds are 11-C. No in-between.

Not really. You don't get to decide that lol. The Dark World's are illusory yet still "real", they're not 11-C. But there's no evidence that these are actual stars, and as I've said which you didn't address, even if they were, there is no real reason to think any one would scale to them, at all.

The thing is that they can reach the Absolute only at LV 20 so...

It's not specified to be about becoming LV 20 is the issue. Also "the absolute" isn't an actual thing, it's just Chara saying "You're at the end now", why are we capitalizing it. If we take the stats completely literally, our base stats are equal to Undyne the Undying's.

There are people who went as far to make a 140 pages imgur album just for Kratos, so...

And I envy them. Speaking of that's all the time I'm dedicating to this atm. There's a reason I used to be active on here and why I am not anymore.

 

[Ti58]

there are also moments in Chapter 2's Cyber City where stars are visible in the sky. plus supporting evidence of Cyber City also blatantly having a moon and some Darkeners implying Dark Worlds do have stars in specific dialogue

I feel like this could technically get a speed rating aswell but that feels weird since literally noone would have any way to scale to that I think

that Moon looks like a baseball

the Cyber City stars move in the backround in a way that shows they have to be close to the characters.

 

[Ti58]

If the Knight isn't Dess i'm gonna have a goddamn parade i swear to god everyone's so confident it'd be hilarious for everyone to be wrong.

the other option is Carol who also is a she

 

[Da3ggman]

And honestly I personally recommend going back later to beat the RK, it doesn't really effect Chapter 4 at all outside of like 3 new lines of dialogue that I won't spoil, so it's not a high priority. That MF is HARRRD.

Won’t I have to beat Chapter 4 over again in order to get the 3rd Shard and (I’m assuming) item for Chapter 5? Well, when it comes out in 2030.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, when it comes out in 2030.

2026*

 

[BatFellow]

Honestly I think the characters jumping to 4-A is fine.

Of course we would approach weird questions of how a matchup would work with one of the Lightners but I guess that's the same weirdness we get for most characters who only get their special powers in unique situations

 

[Alexander]

I AM IN THE DARKNESS AND I CAN'T SEE, BUT THEN I MAKE IT DARKER AND EVERYTHING IS AND I EXISTS

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Won’t I have to beat Chapter 4 over again in order to get the 3rd Shard and (I’m assuming) item for Chapter 5? Well, when it comes out in 2030.

The game detects if you've gotten a shadow crystal on any of your save files. If you go to the left of the castle town, where the cliff is, there's a spot you can interact with that gives you a shard.

 

[LittleGuy99]

I think I have an explanation for why the Pippins from Chapter 3 are more powerful than the enemies from Chapter 1

They technically come from the school but they were never in the dark world of the first chapter, as one of them says Kris and Asriel took them from the school, these Pippins reflect the will of this new dark fountain and that is why they are just as powerful as the other enemies in this chapter

My point is that the Pippins from Chapter 1 are not the same as those from Chapter 3. Those from Chapter 1 would be comparable to the other enemies from that chapter

 

[BatFellow]

Honestly that's a good point, smart thinking.

And when you refight past enemies in training in the Castle Town I don't think they're meant to actually be as strong as the present day versions of them, as you're not actually dying

 

[RinneItachi]

Won’t I have to beat Chapter 4 over again in order to get the 3rd Shard and (I’m assuming) item for Chapter 5? Well, when it comes out in 2030.

It's confirmed to be in 2026 I think.

Toby has been working on Chapter 5 for a while now, just didn't get to complete it in time for the triple release. I could be and am probably wrong but I bet he'll go for a 1 year release span for every future chapter, who knows though.

Also yes.

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

I just realized how strange and unconventional of a profile Jackenstein is going to have lol. He puts opponents through a maze and rushes up on them if they take too long.

I don’t know if he’s very popular, but I really enjoyed Jackenstein as a boss/character. Having a goofy fight that seemingly came out of nowhere was refreshing, especially since he introduced the whole attacking with light concept for the final fight with the Titan.

 

[Galactidot]

I just realized how strange and unconventional of a profile Jackenstein is going to have lol. He puts opponents through a maze and rushes up on them if they take too long.

I don’t know if he’s very popular, but I really enjoyed Jackenstein as a boss/character. Having a goofy fight that seemingly came out of nowhere was refreshing, especially since he introduced the whole attacking with light concept for the final fight with the Titan.

RECLUSA CRT, YOUR TAKING TOO LONG

muhahahahaha

 

[Da3ggman]

Anyway how does everyone feel about downgrading the Darkworld to 11-A (wanked)?

 

[Galactidot]

Anyway how does everyone feel about upgrading the Darkworld to 1-A (lowballed)?

Agree FRA

 

[Itzmrbonezone]

Tier 0 Spamton G. Spamton

 

[Comiphorous]

Tier 0 Spamton G. Spamton

Tier stupid ******* puppet man Spamton G. Spamton....... Spamton must DIE.

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

Tier stupid ******* puppet man Spamton G. Spamton....... Spamton must DIE.

What did Spamton G. Spamton ever do…. Other than break up with Tenna lmaoo

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

RECLUSA CRT, YOUR TAKING TOO LONG

muhahahahaha

YOUR TAKING TOO LONG IS TAKING TOO LONG

 

[Comiphorous]

What did Spamton G. Spamton ever do…. Other than break up with Tenna lmaoo

Already the death penalty.

And chapter 2’s weird route already heightens my need to kill him.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Tenna doesn't have the notable attacks/techniques

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Working on it.