Deletion of MGQ

[Sera_EX]

Considering as Oven’s said (offsite), that this is a complex issue, we should focus on not being contradictory or having arbitrary standards rather than keep on and on about solely MGQ, since it’s been voted to be axe’d anyway. The real problem is other verses that will be affected by this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hm. I'm not going to continue, per AKM's wishes which are, in my opinion, valid enough, given we've been going in circles for quite some time. But still dude.

Can you address my point at all? Please, for several posts I have asked you to address my points and you simply ignore them. Under all of the parameters you used to determine whether something is **** or not HxH isn't, but if you go strictly by describing the sexual content right next to MGQ's it'd be impossible to tell which is which. So how can you determine what is and isn't acceptable?

 

[ShieldsPlus]

Or you can just remove MGQ and leave the other verses as it is since MGQ was a unique case in comparison to pretty much every other eroge.

Keyword being eroge.

@Matthew_Schroeder Why on earth do you want to see MGQ stay here on the wiki so bad anyways? I thought you of all people would object to its existencr here since you know, moral values and all?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd appreciate if the back and forth stopped. Like, I can see the arguments have been laid out here. Matt and Sera disagree with MGQ being treated as a "****" game, while many others disagree. Let's call more staff to see what they think.

I agree with this. So I'm gonna stop.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Considering as Oven’s said (offsite), that this is a complex issue, we should focus on not being contradictory or having arbitrary standards rather than keep on and on about solely MGQ, since it’s been voted to be axe’d anyway. The real problem is other verses that will be affected by this.

No verse should be affected by:

1. Having explicit sexual scenes intended to arouse the viewer

2. Having underage or underage looking character in sex / nudity

3. Having rape (tangencial to 1 and 2.)

4. Being an eroge / having sex or sexual things being tied to the combat or magic system in-universe.

None of these make a series ****. They at most make something that most are uncomfortable talking about.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with this. So I'm gonna stop.

I agree here

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Geez, ya take a couple hours to glass the netherlands and look what happens

Quick, and possibly stupid, question, but do we have a rigid definition of what we consider ****? I agree that not all verses with sexual content are automatically ****, and I think we should probably have something like that before we start axing verses left and right. I haven't read everything that's happened since I left earlier, so apologies if this is slightly off topic.

 

[Antvasima]

I also got permission from DDM to comment in here as I said in my first post in here, so I'll request that my posts are restored from deletion, if possible.

I restored your first two posts. You were allowed to comment a bit, not bombard us with replies.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I appreciate that Mr. Bambu is trying to behave like an adult and make an effort to maintain some degree of standards for the wiki, but as AKM said, we should stop the toxic arguing and just go with what the majority of the staff think in this case.

 

[DaReaperMan]

For the record, I appreciate that Mr. Bambu is trying to behave like an adult and make an effort to maintain some degree of standards for the wiki, but as AKM said, we should stop the toxic arguing and just go with what the majority of the staff think in this case.

This, all of this. I'm not exempt from this myself, just look at this thread, Bayonetta Time Slow, and even Profile deletions and you will see that I have had multiple outbursts.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Geez, ya take a couple hours to glass the netherlands and look what happens

Quick, and possibly stupid, question, but do we have a rigid definition of what we consider ****? I agree that not all verses with sexual content are automatically ****, and I think we should probably have something like that before we start axing verses left and right. I haven't read everything that's happened since I left earlier, so apologies if this is slightly off topic.

I've heard an awful lot of ideas thrown around for this and I rather dislike all of them being the absolute definition. Things like, "if you can avoid it, is it really classified as ****?" or "if you can remove all of the pornography from the work and it remains the same, then it isn't ****". I dislike both of these on the premise that they provide only really one real basis on which to judge something when really its a balancing act of these.

I'm probably not the man to define from a standards point of view what **** is and where the line is- every line seems somewhat arbitrary to me. I just know **** when I see it. As do others. I can point at this and say "this is ****" for all of the reasons mentioned above, with or without strict standards defining ****, and point to something like fate and say "this is not ****" even if it seems to blur the line occasionally

 

[Moritzva]

No verse should be affected by:

1. Having explicit sexual scenes intended to arouse the viewer

W-What is ****, then, a theatrical release of nude athleticism specifically performed on the body of another?

Seriously, what matters to me is if a series is story first, **** second, or **** first, story second. MGQ is absolutely the latter of the two, and any other verses that are the latter of the two should get the boot. Whatever VNs are mentioned, hell if I know, I don't like visual novels much so I couldn't tell you. If they are indeed intended as **** foremost, delete them. No skin off my back.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

W-What is ****, then, a theatrical release of nude athleticism specifically performed on the body of another?

There are plenty of non-pornographic anime, manga and light novels that have explicit scenes meant to be arousing to the viewer or reader. Plenty of Eroge that have like 100 hours of story but which will also contain 5 sex scenes in the game that are absolutely meant to be hot and erotic. The mere existence of this kind of content doesn't make something ****.

 

[Moritzva]

Well, then we're haggling over price, here.

In my eyes, MGQ is definitionally intended to be **** before it is meant to be a story. Do you agree with that, or not?

If you don't, then that is a divisive disagreement that will likely cause us problems later, as if MGQ is removed, (preferably) only other verses focused on **** > story would be removed as well, though we'd disagree on most of those as well.

 

[Crabwhale]

The fact that this thread has gone on for this long is quite simply baffling. It is **** people. There's no grand moral conviction, no "WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" prevailing through the mods. It is simply seeing what a series is. What a series ADVERTISES ITSELF AS. What a series REVELS IN.

It is pornography. No bullshit about ecchi, eroge or whatever the Hell else. Different terms about different things that ultimately have no damn bearing on the situation. They're semantics. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it.

If I tried to grab a 20 minute fantasy video from PornHub that had feats and put it on the wiki, no matter how stellar that 20 minutes was for it's characters, story, visuals, etc. it is still ****. It's material meant to be **** first and foremost, and that is against the rules. There really does not need to be any higher tier discussion, any deeper thought looking into this.

It's as clear as the Sun in a cloudless sky. So unless anyone would like to propose changing the rules, it is getting banned and all the others like it are following suit. This is an example case, for the verse is popular. From here on out we judge all others accordingly. That is my final say in this.

 

[Sera_EX]

Crab, please calm down. I already brought up on the RV how I argued against Bambu simply because I thought he was just saying “I don’t like it regardless of x, y, and z, so it shouldn’t be here”. I know that’s not the case now. I also don’t like MGQ, but I aim to be as impartial and unbiased as possible with these things. I am of the opinion that so long as nothing inappropriate is in our articles, it shouldn’t matter if the verse is labeled as ****. I also am of the opinion that MGQ is probably an outlier as actual attacks are basically sexual assault. All that aside, I’m fine with Bambu’s overal assessment so long as we remain impartial and follow up without creating double standards.

 

[Crabwhale]

I am not actually angry. I am however dispelling any opportunity for anyone else who could use our moral standing against the deletion, for as has been made plenty evident throughout this thread, that is not even within the same solar system of being a factor.

I was not targeting you, or Matt, or anyone else for that matter. It's a general statement. What I will say however is that if anyone continues with the moral side of the argument past this point they're either thickheaded or are choosing to appear thickheaded.

 

[Damage3245]

I have to agree. I pointed out earlier in the the thread that I have no moral issues with any of the game's content. In a perfect world, a series that is extremely sexual would be treated no differently than a series that is extremely violent.

But I am against the inclusion of the game on the wiki.

Just as I would be against somebody indexing the feats for a doujin series, or a pornographic video.

 

[Elizhaa]

Just giving my two-cents. From what I know, the second game is largely more story focus. The loss is largely non-canon in the games. I do think it was agreed as fine as from the last thread where it was mentioned.

The last major thread where the topic of MGQ was discussed in this thread not in the thread, in the OP.
In any case, MGQ is marketed as an eroge series not a full pornographic series like some hentai.
MGQ's story doesn't fully focus on pornography. The pornography relates to losing which is largely non-canon in the scheme of the game.
The losing part again is largely non-canon since it is like a game over where the protagonist revived again with the help of Goddesses to try for the new path.

As Matt stated in the last thread, the Paradox is way more story focus even the review in this link in the OP pointed so. When Noground proposed the additional texts on the rating scaling for Level 4, he had a more than 50% ratio as a basis.
If I could give a figure, the focus on the story and RPG easily take over a hundred hours of gaming. I am not sure of the pornography but I don't think it even cracks near ten hours.
The attacks are largely non-sexual in this game. Most moves are rpg-like in battles like from the section on jobs.

So, going on the acceptable content rating scale, Paradox would be Level 3 series, in my view.

• Level 3: Explicit - Verses with shown or heavily descriptive sexual conduct. Said sexual content is not the main focus of the material and is usually part of a greater overall plot. Such content would be akin to an R-rated movie; restricted to mature audiences, but for wholly artistic endeavors.

Going on the 50% content topics, I could argue there are more RPG and story contents than pornography for MGQ also. Though. I would argue if MGQ is not fine, I guess some MGQ profiles could be deleted (Though, I doubt much would change since the profiles kind of shared the same key. It's only like three MGQ profiles that exist. ). Then, keep the others since they are Paradox focused and rename the verse as something like MGQ Paradox.

I would also propose an addition since there is vagueness; I think adding the quantifiable metric (>50%) to the rating scale page for use when deciding whether or not a verse can stay could a good idea since level 4 already related to the reasoning. Though, I guess this point can be postponed for another thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that the sex should simply be the main focus of a series to make it count as level 4 on our ratings scale.

 

[Bobsican]

I restored your first two posts. You were allowed to comment a bit, not bombard us with replies.

I only did two replies before my clarification over the allowance I got from DDM to post in here.
Anyways, to keep this post with actual relevant information to potentially make note with...
I think many are just focusing on it being **** or not, when that's not how it exactly works, all ecchi per definition "is" ****, but that doesn't mean it's automatically banned, otherwise everything with a rating of 1 or above in the Acceptable Content Rating Scale would have to be removed (Let alone series with minor/accidental fanservice), a more productive discussion would be going on where to exactly draw the line between level 3 and 4 for this case, more specifically without basing it particularly on personal morals.

 

[Crabwhale]

Bob. Did you miss what I said? Are you still, after ALL this time, debating against the morality "argument" of this thread?

If you cannot be ****** to even read what half the thread has been about debunking, then I repeat, stop commenting.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay, I was called.
I have no care about this and last time I did, I was just holding down the fort until Saik could make his points.
I’ve played the game (don’t judge me) and it is ****. It is undoubtedly **** that’s just as much fapbait as it is a story, and and anyone with eyes can tell you that. But some of the arguments are silly.
“Makes us look like a joke” is stupid when we have shows literally made for toddlers & horribly written things like Invisible Dragon on here. Heck, sometimes we revel in it. If we really didn’t want to be seen as a joke, then we’d not have any verses that don’t have a great deal of fighting and/or cosmology on here. Trust me when I say that we don’t have to worry about MGQ making us look like a joke.
“It goes against the standards.” That’s true. But coming from someone who’s been here longer than most of you, times change, and standards change with them. Obviously things like “Asa Akira: Zombie Apocalypse” (it’s not a thing, don’t search it, I made it up) wouldn’t be allowed no matter what, but I’d put money on the standards eventually changing to “just don’t talk about the sexual aspects when it comes to ecchi shit.”
If you want it gone, just say “I don’t want this on my website. I don’t have to include every little thing if I don’t want to.” Its honesty not that big a deal. But this quite literally couldn’t affect me any less as I’m barely here nowadays and only decided to respond on a whim.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also it should be noted that I got bored of reading about halfway through page 2 so some things may have already been addressed.

 

[Bobsican]

Bob. Did you miss what I said? Are you still, after ALL this time, debating against the morality "argument" of this thread?

If you cannot be ****** to even read what half the thread has been about debunking, then I repeat, stop commenting.

I actually bothered reading every single post in this thread, sorry if I may have missed something in any case, and I'm actually pushing for leaving that at a side, now if that part is already agreed on it's another story and we can continue with that aspect in mind for proper unbiased evaluation.
Anyways, your point is based on "If it's hosted in mature **** websites, it automatically falls as level 4 and so it shouldn't be allowed", respectively
Oh, time to delete Barry Bee Benson as someone uploaded the entire Bee Movie to that website at one point, that's simply not a particularly strong point to base entirely with, you can also find plenty of stuff in level 3 or below in such websites and we aren't banning them out of that.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I actually bothered reading every single post in this thread, sorry if I may have missed something in any case.
Anyways, your point is based on "If it's hosted in mature **** websites, it automatically falls as level 4 and so it shouldn't be allowed", respectively
Oh, time to delete Barry Bee Benson as someone uploaded the entire Bee Movie to that website at one point, that's simply not a particularly strong point to base entirely with, you can also find plenty of stuff in level 3 or below in such websites and we aren't banning them out of that.

There's a perfect saying for this: if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...

 

[Bobsican]

There's a perfect saying for this: if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...

And the same can be said for level 3 content like many other series that are allowed in the site, how it's portrayed isn't as relevant for how we currently rate such levels, but rather the amount of plot within it as the main difference between level 3 and 4, as Elizhaa explained:

Just giving my two-cents. From what I know, the second game is largely more story focus. The loss is largely non-canon in the games. I do think it was agreed as fine as from the last thread where it was mentioned.

The last major thread where the topic of MGQ was discussed in this thread not in the thread, in the OP.
In any case, MGQ is marketed as an eroge series not a full pornographic series like some hentai.
MGQ's story doesn't fully focus on pornography. The pornography relates to losing which is largely non-canon in the scheme of the game.
The losing part again is largely non-canon since it is like a game over where the protagonist revived again with the help of Goddesses to try for the new path.

As Matt stated in the last thread, the Paradox is way more story focus even the review in this link in the OP pointed so. When Noground proposed the additional texts on the rating scaling for Level 4, he had a more than 50% ratio as a basis.
If I could give a figure, the focus on the story and RPG easily take over a hundred hours of gaming. I am not sure of the pornography but I don't think it even cracks near ten hours.

So, going on the acceptable content rating scale, Paradox would be Level 3 series, in my view.

• Level 3: Explicit - Verses with shown or heavily descriptive sexual conduct. Said sexual content is not the main focus of the material and is usually part of a greater overall plot. Such content would be akin to an R-rated movie; restricted to mature audiences, but for wholly artistic endeavors.

Going on the 50% content topics, I could argue there are more RPG and story contents than pornography for MGQ also. Though. I would argue if MGQ is not fine, I guess some MGQ profiles could be deleted (Though, I doubt much would change since the profiles kind of shared the same key. It's only like three MGQ profiles that exist. ). Then, keep the others since they are Paradox focused and rename the verse as something like MGQ Paradox.

I would also propose an addition since there is vagueness; I think adding the quantifiable metric (>50%) to the rating scale page for use when deciding whether or not a verse can stay could a good idea since level 4 already related to the reasoning. Though, I guess this point can be postponed for another thread.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And the same can be said for level 3 content like many other series that are allowed in the site, how it's portrayed isn't as relevant for how we currently rate such levels, but rather the amount of plot within it, as Elizhaa explained:

When said plot contains mandatory **** then its ****.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I have no horse in this race as I simply do not care in the slightest. If ya'll want it gone, just remove it. Ya'll want to go after other verses with the same logic? Do so. The votes are in and it looks like the verse is gonna be deleted. But simply arguing over it when, let's be blunt, neither side is gonna budge is a waste of time. This is what the votes are for. Delete it and focus on other verses later. Arguing back in forth over "****" and whatnot is not going to solve anything in this thread.

 

[Bobsican]

When said plot contains mandatory **** then its ****.

And? It "being" **** isn't relevant, what matters is if such prominence of **** goes beyond what level 3 allows, now that's another story.
As I really am lacking on stuff to say from now on, I'll stop commenting, it seems that many already agree that such inappropiate content is prominent enought to go to level 4 with the current standards.

 

[Crabwhale]

I actually bothered reading every single post in this thread, sorry if I may have missed something in any case, and I'm actually pushing for leaving that at a side, now if that part is already agreed on it's another story and we can continue with that aspect in mind for proper unbiased evaluation.
Anyways, your point is based on "If it's hosted in mature **** websites, it automatically falls as level 4 and so it shouldn't be allowed", respectively
Oh, time to delete Barry Bee Benson as someone uploaded the entire Bee Movie to that website at one point, that's simply not a particularly strong point to base entirely with, you can also find plenty of stuff in level 3 or below in such websites and we aren't banning them out of that.

Bro. Where do I even begin to dissect this argument. What is this? If I didn't know you were completely serious I'd accuse you of making a ******* farce of the thread with this quite frankly moronic statement.

But alright, I'll dumb down what I meant even further. A movie uploaded to a **** site? That's not ****. It doesn't have to be.

A movie SPECIFICALLY made for the purposes of being displayed on that **** site? That is ****. There's no ifs and or butts about it.

The game, Bob, is ****. Hardcore ****. As in every attack a monster makes insinuated rape, every ending ends in rape. What more can be said?

 

[Antvasima]

I have no horse in this race as I simple do not care in the slightest. If ya'll want it gone, just remove it. Ya'll want to go after other verses with the same logic? Do so. The votes are in and it looks like the verse is gonna be deleted. But simply arguing over it when, let's be blunt, neither side is gonna budge is a waste of time. This is what the votes are for. Delete it and focus on other verses later. Arguing back in forth over "****" and whatnot is not going to solve anything in this thread.

I agree with this. It seems best if we move on and get this revision out of the way.

I think that @Damage3245 offered to help apply the result earlier.

 

[Damage3245]

Yup. I can go through the verse's category and delete the pages / remove other links if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. That would be very appreciated.

 

[Crabwhale]

Can this be closed then?

 

[Antvasima]

Shouldn't we wait until Damage has finished, as we usually do with revisions?

 

[Crabwhale]

Eh. Fair enough.

 

[Damage3245]

All of the pages, plus the category, have been deleted. As well as links to the deleted pages from any other profiles or disambiguation pages.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well, it seems this DELETE is finished, this can be closed

 

[Crabwhale]

I'll do the honors.