Delete this verse, please, and thank you :)

[noninho]

or just that Classic Shunades wasn't at full power

That's
Exactly
Why
Everything I'm saying
Is possible.

Athena herself says Shun's not his adequate vessel. Why do I need to repeat myself so much

 

[Xxiaa]

Guys this is the verse deletion page

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Yeah no Shaka doesn't scale to any Hades brah

 

[noninho]

Yeah no Shaka doesn't scale to any Hades brah

Bruh

Guys this is the verse deletion page

 

[Hasty12345]

bump

I propose an alternative.

If mods are willing, as opposed to deleting the whole verse, we delete every profile that isn't Pegasus Seiya, Dragon Shiryu, Cygnus Hyoga, Phoenix Ikki, Andromeda Shun, Athena and Hades so the most popular pages remain.

And delete every other profile so we can start from (well almost) the ground up.

Either way, the profiles and verse is so far damaged, it needs to be rebuilt for near scratch, and the profiles as is are spreading misinformation.

 

[noninho]

bump

I propose an alternative.

If mods are willing, as opposed to deleting the whole verse, we delete every profile that isn't Pegasus Seiya, Dragon Shiryu, Cygnus Hyoga, Phoenix Ikki, Andromeda Shun, Athena and Hades so the most popular pages remain.

And delete every other profile so we can start from (well almost) the ground up.

Either way, the profiles and verse is so far damaged, it needs to be rebuilt for near scratch, and the profiles as is are spreading misinformation.

I agree with this, since a nice part of the feats come from them and then we can remake them then recreate the others

 

[Hasty12345]

Bump

 

[Hasty12345]

bump

 

[Catzlaflame]

@LordGriffin1000 @Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima

Apologies for the tag but given that you guys are the staff who have already inputed and/or observed this thread, I wanted to ask if you'd be willing to clarify your stance one last time so we could bring it to an end. If not, I shall leave it at that.

Proposal 1: Delete all pages ~
Pro: Prevents misinformation from being spread over the time that the supporters spend fixing pages
Con: A moderately popular verse is removed temporarily

Proposal 2: Deleting all pages EXCEPT for the 7 most popular ones ~ ARMORCHOMPY, CATZLAFLAME
Pro: To an extent, prevents misinformation from being spread over the time period the supporters spend fixing pages while also leaving some presence of a popular verse on the wiki.
Con: None I can think of tbh

Proposal 3 : Leavning the pages as is ~ ANTVASIMA, AGNAA, IMMORTALDREAD, PLANCK,
Pro: Popular verse remains on wiki
Con: Misinformation is being spread

---

Personally, I think Proposal 2 would work best because it's a compromise between the opposition and the support that also incorporates both of their better qualities. Best of both worlds per se.

 

[noninho]

(I would like to call out that I interpret the CRT I opened a little bit before this one the first of the verses remake and call people who haven't inputted there to do so, please. Sorry if I'm bothering)

 

[Antvasima]

I support suggestion 3 or maybe (but probably not) 2. Our staff have talked in private about the general issue of deleting verses to be able to more easily implement changes to them, and mostly consider it an inappropriate procedure except for very extremely bad quality pages as far as I recall.

It seems better to create drafts for new profile pages in sandboxes and then try to get them accepted instead.

 

[Hasty12345]

I understand, however, this is something that has been discussed at great lengths between the verse supporters and given how damaged the pages are we do feel it to be far more efficient to start again and reintroduce accurate pages and scaling as opposed to what would be a very literal entire verse overhaul in 1 swoop.

Would you consider supporting this if we brought drafts for profiles for the first couple arcs of the manga? essentially imagine restarting Dragon Ball Z by deleting the majority of profiles but starting with Saiyan Saga profiles that are more accurate and allow for a good foundation to repair the verse with?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure.

@Agnaa @ImmortalDread

What do you think about this?

 

[Hasty12345]

I was going to edit my post but since you replied, we wouldn't delete any pages until we had those other profiles ready to go so it's not like the verse will be absent from the wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that isn't as extreme then.

 

[Hasty12345]

This is how I think we'd go about it:

1) recreate the profiles for the first couple arcs so the verse won't be barren for any extended period of time, along with this fix up the current verse-associated blogs that have the calcs
2) implement the new profiles, deleting all the old profiles
3) procedurally build up the verse from the foundation from those profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's wait for the other staff members here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Definitely not proposal 1, but neutral whether 2 or 3.

 

[Agnaa]

Having only read the posts from #49 onwards....

I believe in only deleting profiles if no-one's willing to work on them, if they're horrendous vandalism/trolling, or if they're fundamentally not suitable for the wiki.

If you're going to make new profiles, just update them, why delete them? Why wait until the new profiles are ready, delete them, then post them? That's pointless.

If you're going to update them eventually, then don't delete them.

Option 3 all the way.

 

[Hasty12345]

I suppose, as I said, it's just an efficiency thing.
It's hard to describe just how far gone the current profiles are, like genuinely try and imagine imgur files with 10's of scans with content from:

Original Manga Universe:

• Saint Seiya: Episode Zero (A manga of three chapters that is a prequel to the Classic Manga)
• Saint Seiya: Origin (A manga of two chapters that is a prequel to the Classic Manga)
• Saint Seiya: Episode.G (7 Years before the start of Classic Series, Year of 1979)
• Saint Seiya: Episode.G Assassin - Prologue (months after of the fight against Cronus)
• Classic Manga: Sanctuary Arc (Year of 1986)
• Classic Manga: Poseidon Arc (Year of 1987)
• Saint Seiya: Destiny (A manga of one chapter with a story parallel to the Poseidon Arc)
• Classic Manga: Hades Arc (Year of 1990)
• Saint Seiya: Next Dimension (days after the Hades Arc / Year of 1743 in the past)
• Saint Seiya: Saintia Sho (Events happening parallel to Classic Manga)
• Saint Seiya: Golden Age (In between of Poseidon Arc and Hades Arc of the Classic Manga)
• Saint Seiya: Episode.G: Assassin (Modern times, decades after the main series)

Toei Animation Universe:

• Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas (Spin-off: Take place more than 2 centuries before Classic Series)
• Classic Anime: Sanctuary Arc (Year of 1986) (Early fillers not included)
• Classic Anime: Asgard Arc (Year of 1987)
• Classic Anime: Poseidon Arc (Year of 1987)
• Saint Seiya: Hades OVAs (Year of 1990)
• Saint Seiya: Soul of Gold (Spin-off: In between Hades Inferno and Hades Elysium)
• Saint Seiya: Santia Sho (Spin-off: Events happening parallel to Classic Series)
• Saint Seiya Ω (25 Years after the start of Classic Series, Year of 2011)

Parallel Universes:

• Saint Seiya Heaven Chapter: Overture
• Saint Seiya Gigantomachia (In between of Poseidon Arc and Hades Arc)
• Saint Seiya: Meiō Iden Dark Wing (A new manga with a story set in a parallel universe of the multiverse of Saint Seiya)
• Saint Seiya: Legend of Sanctuary (A CGI Movie adaptation of the Sanctuary Arc, taking heavy liberties with the source material

All these products, when half of them have no relation to one another canonicity wise.

As opposed to weeding out these scans and cross-canon scaling and a myriad of other issues, like pages having literal fan-canon on them (like Seiya having the 9th sense from Overture and Overture even being on the profile at all), I and the rest of the verse supporters would rather start relatively fresh - or as close to it as possible.

 

[Agnaa]

Then make a revision with new profiles, and apply those new profiles to the current pages, with no deletion necessary.

 

[Hasty12345]

Hypothetically, what happens in the scenario where that outcome would result in the verse supporters losing their motivation to fix the profiles?

 

[Agnaa]

If you can't demonstrate better replacements for your proclaimed issues with a successful CRT, then we have no good reason to believe that they shouldn't just stay as they are.

 

[Hasty12345]

I believe in only deleting profiles if no-one's willing to work on them, if they're horrendous vandalism/trolling, or if they're fundamentally not suitable for the wiki.

The OP proves 1 of these criteria, my hypothetical would make 2 for 3.

It would seem the verse supporters abandoning the verse would meet the objective of this CRT whether or not is passes would it not?

So wouldn't it be in the best interest of staff to help the verse supporters fix the verse? I'm not sure I understand the hesitancy here?

 

[Agnaa]

The OP proves 1 of these criteria, my hypothetical would make 2 for 3.

It would seem the verse supporters abandoning the verse would meet the objective of this CRT whether or not is passes would it not?

So wouldn't it be in the best interest of staff to help the verse supporters fix the verse? I'm not sure I understand the hesitancy here?

I do not think that we should give into such threats.

You're essentially saying "Let us revise the verse without a CRT or else".

And I'm just saying "Go through the CRT process like everyone else".

The only middleground I could see would be something like, deleting the 9th sense key, and removing the flawed scaling/calcs and replacing those stats with unknown.

 

[Antvasima]

Hypothetically, what happens in the scenario where that outcome would result in the verse supporters losing their motivation to fix the profiles?

The OP proves 1 of these criteria, my hypothetical would make 2 for 3.

It would seem the verse supporters abandoning the verse would meet the objective of this CRT whether or not is passes would it not?

So wouldn't it be in the best interest of staff to help the verse supporters fix the verse? I'm not sure I understand the hesitancy here?

Well, I do want you to make our Saint Seiya profiles much more reliable, so if you send me a PM after you start your revisions of its character profile pages, and remind me of this message in conjunction, I will very likely approve your replacements for their content.

Would that be sufficient to increase all of your motivation for doing this project, especially if other staff members, such as Medeus, commit to helping you in this way as well?

 

[Hasty12345]

I do not think that we should give into such threats.

There's no threat here.

I have spent years talking with, interacting with and watching as the verse supporters have continuously lost their passion for the verse for reasons that anyone who's read a saint seiya CRT in the last 18 months could see.

I'm speaking as someone who cares and sees a spark of passion again in these supporters, I don't want it to disappear.

You're essentially saying "Let us revise the verse without a CRT or else".

No, it's not, this is me pointing out that your requirements for profile deletion will likely be met in either case. I think assuming the worst in me is not fair to my character or the situation.

Well, I do want you to make our Saint Seiya profiles much more reliable, so if you send me a PM after you start your revisions of its character profile pages, and remind me of this message in conjunction, I will very likely approve your replacements for their content.

Would that be sufficient to increase all of your motivation for doing this project, especkally if other staff members, such as Medeus, commit to it as well?

This means a lot to me, I would not want any arbitrary approval however, I do want to strive for accuracy and that does require debate and evaluation. Help in summoning staff is always a massive help.

 

[Agnaa]

No, it's not, this is me pointing out that your requirements for profile deletion will likely be met in either case. I think assuming the worst in me is not fair to my character or the situation.

They won't be.

Nothing could bring it to the vandalism/unsuitable category. Any changes that would could simply be reverted.

And now that you've told us the issues, all that has to be done to rectify them is deleting those keys, setting those stats to unknown, etc.

If you think they should have other stats in lieu of those, make CRTs demonstrating it, and those too will be applied, and there will never be cause for deletion.

The simple fact that you're willing to start over shows that there is some drive. Verses tend to only get deleted when they're obviously flawed, but no supporters remain, or were only supporters years ago and now have zero interest in it. The flaws identified here require digging into the series, supporters clearly exist, and they have expressed their intention to work on the profiles again. As far as I'm concerned, deletion is off the table.

 

[Hasty12345]

Is deleting profiles that aren't from the main continuity off the table such as movie characters, low-quality spin-off manga pages, low-quality anime character pages?

 

[Agnaa]

Pages that are within the verse's canon should be kept.

Spin-offs have no reason to be deleted. You'd have to tackle those sorts of things anyway when comprehensively covering the canon of the series.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think option 2 is fine, actually, as long as the verse remains in place people have to still make CRTs to update it, as they should, but lessening the amount of character they need to revise may allow them to make such revisions more easily

 

[Agnaa]

I think option 2 is fine, actually, as long as the verse remains in place people have to still make CRTs to update it, as they should, but lessening the amount of character they need to revise may allow them to make such revisions more easily

It bypasses the revisions on those profiles by letting them remake them with unaccepted changes.

Only actual solution to this would be a long lockout timer on those pages being re-created without a CRT (1.5 years, the time since the verse seems to have had its last major revision), but that sounds difficult to enforce, and idk how accepting people would be of that.

 

[Hasty12345]

Pages that are within the verse's canon should be kept.

Spin-offs have no reason to be deleted. You'd have to tackle those sorts of things anyway when comprehensively covering the canon of the series.

Not all spin-offs would come under that banner, the anime and movies scale off of the manga profiles that composite anime and manga content haphazardly. The anime has a different scaling from the manga and some manga are "different timelines" and those profiles aren't relevant to anything in main continuity whatsoever.

Would you support removing profiles from spin-offs that have no bearing on main-continuity (timeline) scaling at all?

 

[Hasty12345]

unaccepted changes.

No profiles will be created without a CRT.

I think you're assuming malice where there is none.

 

[Agnaa]

the anime and movies scale off of the manga profiles that composite anime and manga content haphazardly.

Then it depends on whether or not that's reasonable, which is a verse-by-verse decision that I'm not knowledgeable enough to weigh in on.

The anime has a different scaling from the manga and some manga are "different timelines" and those profiles aren't relevant to anything in main continuity whatsoever.

Would you support removing profiles from spin-offs that have no bearing on main-continuity (timeline) scaling at all?

No. Spin-offs in different timelines are often still relevant to main-series profiles due to broad cosmology statements. They should be kept.

No profiles will be created without a CRT.

I think you're assuming malice where there is none.

I'm assuming a purpose for a 75-post-long thread fighting for moderator action, and continually doing so after staff have said no.

If you're going to create CRTs anyway, all deleting them does is mitigates misinformation in the meantime (not something we delete profiles over), removes history (something we actively don't want), and makes editing profiles for large scaling changes slightly easier (we won't delete pages so you only have to copy-paste an AP justification on 20 profiles instead of 60; we want that extra information around for those who are curious).

 

[Hasty12345]

staff are split between deleting some pages and no pages, I'm trying to come to a compromise with you to alleviate the work load.

But if you insist on keeping 24 irrelevant profiles then I won't continue arguing.

 

[Agnaa]

Only actual solution to this would be a long lockout timer on those pages being re-created without a CRT (1.5 years, the time since the verse seems to have had its last major revision), but that sounds difficult to enforce, and idk how accepting people would be of that.

Just had an idea for enforcing this; instead of deleting the pages, replace their content with a redirect to the Saint Seiya verse page, and leave a comment only visible to editors that says something along the lines of "This page cannot be edited without an approved CRT until {date}, as per {thread link}". That way, anyone patrolling pages would be able to were it changed without permission.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Agnaa @ImmortalDread

What do you think about this?

Agnaa accurately conveyed my position.

Just had an idea for enforcing this; instead of deleting the pages, replace their content with a redirect to the Saint Seiya verse page, and leave a comment only visible to editors that says something along the lines of "This page cannot be edited without an approved CRT until {date}, as per {thread link}". That way, anyone patrolling pages would be able to were it changed without permission.

I am not sure how practical it is.

 

[Planck69]

Looking over his posts, Agnaa does make sense.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I lean in favor of agreeing to any of the options tbh.

I'll have time tuesday to talk and do stuff