Dc speed feat.

[The_real_cal_howard]

How is that proof? There's a white background and nothing else. That's a clear void unless there was darkness prior.

 

[Firestorm808]

When they were in entropy, there was no light to cast a shadow until creation happens again.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Doesn't un-amped Wally literally have a sextillions feat listed on his profile

How is a quintillions one an outlier

 

[Greenshifter]

The sextillions feat is amped if you're talking about the radio one.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I thought tredecillions was amped

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Both were amped, just to different extends.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Question. I'm looking over Matthew's math and he calculates the speed for one shard instead of the trillions of pieces. They're all coming from different angles, so is this messed up or am I overlooking something?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I should mention that I think there's a revision that's changing the DC universe size to infinite, which would render all of the universe-crossing feats automatic outliers

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I should mention that I think there's a revision that's changing the DC universe size to infinite, which would render all of the universe-crossing feats automatic outliers

Well if there are so many crossing the Universe feats wouldn't infinite speed be consistent? There are other infinite speed feats as well like Supes moving in frozen time (or is that inaccessible or whatever).

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I should mention that I think there's a revision that's changing the DC universe size to infinite, which would render all of the universe-crossing feats automatic outliers

Well if there are so many crossing the Universe feats wouldn't infinite speed be consistent? There are other infinite speed feats as well like Supes moving in frozen time (or is that inaccessible or whatever).

You forget what website you're on.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I should mention that I think there's a revision that's changing the DC universe size to infinite, which would render all of the universe-crossing feats automatic outliers

Well if there are so many crossing the Universe feats wouldn't infinite speed be consistent? There are other infinite speed feats as well like Supes moving in frozen time (or is that inaccessible or whatever).

You forget what website you're on.

Fair point haha.

 

[Firestorm808]

@ZephyrosOmega and Ehnkr2beboh

If the alleged consistancy is cross-examined and confirmed, then there should be no issues with a revision. I'm curious as to what thread is proposing the infinitley sized universe, as they would have to ignore the version of the Source Wall that surrounds every universe.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

@ZephyrosOmega and Ehnkr2beboh
If the alleged consistancy is cross-examined and confirmed, then there should be no issues with a revision. I'm curious as to what thread is proposing the infinitley sized universe, as they would have to ignore the version of the Source Wall that surrounds every universe.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blogrinceOfTheMorning/DC_Cosmology_-_From_a_Holistic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Cano

Matt gave the sign-off on it. It's got a couple problems, but none of them pertain to the actual size of the universes.

 

[Firestorm808]

I see. In regards to the Green Lanterns traveling from Oa to Sector 3601, that would depend on how far each sector stretches from Oa as only a portion of the universe has been mapped by them.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Hi, I'm just popping in to confirm that I'm part of the team responsible for implimenting that blog, and we've already discussed that universe-crossing feats are just going to default to the best estimates we have for a finite universe. They are not going to be disregarded as outliers nor will they be treated as indicative of infinite speed. So don't concern yourself with that in your revisions.

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay. We'll handle those revisions when we get to them. However, I would like your input regarding my above cross-examination of the Wally West Flash feat that was used in this thread.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Sorry. I'm kind of in the middle of something. I have not had time to look over the thread entirely. I just happened across the most recent comment and thought I could share my assurances about the problem. But based on the brief review I just gave it, I do see how this scene could be difficult for a reader to interpret. It can sometimes be confusing to tell exactly how fast a character is going relative to some other nearby object or explosion when reading a comic, especially a character like The Flash, who is known for running at speeds so great that the surrounding atmosphere seems frozen. That being said, in regards to the direction Wally is traveling specifically, I have to say that it seems more obvious from my perspective that he is still running away from the new Big Bang in this scene and not running towards it.

It's true that Wally did eventually return to his original time in this comic, but this scene takes place immediately after several scenes of continuous forward running with no real indication that he had stopped and turned around yet. He also claims that the entropy at the beginning of time is culminating in another Big Bang. The entropy is illustrated by the white of the background in this story, and that white is used in the referenced scene to also become a flash (rimshot) signifying the Big Bang. That's why Wally's shadow is cast the way it is, because a massive source of light is flaring up behind him (the Big Bang). The DNA coil slowly coming together and stretching out into blackness (space) is indicative of new space and a new universe being born. It looks to me like Wally is almost definitely running forward here, and he's witnessing creation itself restart. This is a reference to the Big Bounce, a niche scientific theory that proposes the universe is in a constant state of death and rebirth through an endless cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches. DC has used the concept in a handful of past stories, and with certain interpretations of the idea, characters can sometimes return to the present by just continually going forward. This misleading take on the subject proposes that in the event of a Big Bounce, the entire universe will play out the exact same way it did the last time.

All I'm saying here is that he was running forward beforehand, the scene cues seem to indicate he is ahead of and nearly keeping pace with the Big Bang, there was no indication he suddenly stopped and changed directions, and he may not even necessarily have needed to go backwards to rearrive at the present in the first place. It's actually far more likely that he just accelerated from that point until he breached the Speed Barrier and returned from the Speed Force in the present. After all, the last scene we see of him involves him pining for Linda after her death and vowing to "be together again." Then immediately following that scene, Max Mercury is suggesting Wally might have breached the Speed Barrier in mourning for Linda, effectively committing suicide. From a narrative perspective, this is obviously meant to convince the reader that might have actually happened, but Wally soon reemerges with Linda in tow, Max even claiming he must have done exactly as he suggested and breached the Speed Force but somehow survived and reconstituted himself after finding Linda. This is something that Flashes have always been theoretically capable of, but I don't think any of them had ever pulled it off before this scene. So it's another demonstration of Wally's mastery in the field. In short, it's pretty unlikely Wally returned to the present by conventional means, so it's pretty unlikely he was running toward the new Big Bang.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

What I'm curious about is why Barry doesn't have an "Immeasurable by running through time" rating like Wally does. He DID cause a Flashpoint on his own, after all (Well, absorbing massive amounts of the speed force to do it, but you know what i mean)

 

[Firestorm808]

@ClassicNESfan

Going by your perspective, we still have the wave of creation going ahead of Wally. In the scene prior, the blackness of space becomes the white of entropy. Entropy becomes the Big Bang. The Big Bang's light flashes ahead of Wally, and the DNA coil and blackness of space forms faster than he runs as he is shown running on the path of the DNA coil.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Yes, I agree. That's a good catch. Perhaps I was not reviewing with the proper level of scrutiny when evaluating this thread earlier. The difference in speed is still relatively minor (on a cosmic scale anyway), but Wally is indeed just behind the growing universe. Perhaps this calls for a rewording of the feat in his profile. It currently says "At least more than 3.8 sextillion times." It should probably say something more like "Nearly 3.8 sextillion times." Tbh, I like that better anyway. It's more definitive.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I'd still like to know whether or not Matt calculating the speed for one shard instead of trillions was intentional or not.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Ehnkr2beboh

It would be best if you comment on his blog or message him directly.

@ClassicNESfan

Considering that we don't know how far ahead the blackness and DNA coil extends off the panel, I wouldn't say it's reliable to say his base speed is comparable to the wave of creation.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I disagree. I think that the fact we clearly see the blackness of space forming immediately ahead of Wally indicates that he is on the very edge of the formation. In this respect, the illustration is pretty straight forward. The Flash was deliberately placed just behind the border by the artist, and he percieves the entire event happening.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

@Ehnkr2beboh
It would be best if you comment on his blog or message him directly.

@ClassicNESfan

Considering that we don't know how far ahead the blackness and DNA coil extends off the panel, I wouldn't say it's reliable to say his base speed is comparable to the wave of creation.

I did comment on the blog, but yeah I guess the Message Wall would be the best place to ask.

 

[Antvasima]

@Classic & Firestorm

Thank you both for helping out.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

@Ant I'm just happy to lend a hand.

I think we should change the description to say "Nearly 3.8 sextillion times," but other than that, I stand by the overall calculation, all things considered.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm leaning against it, but we should probably move this to its own thread and get additional input from other knowledgeable members as well.

 

[AKM sama]

But isn't it still time travel?

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I don't really see any meaningful objections to the argument. Our main point of contention at this moment is that the comic book panel cuts off before we see the full extent of the illustration, despite the Flash clearly running right next to the border of expanding space right after the Big Bang and describing the events as he percieves them. The idea that Mark Millar included all of this but also meant for the DNA coil to secretly extend 12 trillion miles off panel in that one scene is kind of absurd. It's clear that space was not expanding at any rate so fast as to not be somewhat comparable to the Flash in this shot.

 

[Firestorm808]

We did agree that the light of the big bang went past the Flash. In turn, he was going slower than light at the time.

 

[AKM sama]

My point being, if it is time travel then it will be incorporated in his "Immeasurable by running through time" part of the description.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

As if light speed in DC was not inconsistent enough already, to act like the light representing the DC universe's Big Bang is in any way scalable to standard light speed is bordering on disingenuous.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Classic. Yet another way to keep DC heralds down.

 

[Firestorm808]

To be fair, at the time this comic was written, the theoretical speed of the Big Bang was the speed of light.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I'll be honest. This is starting to get a little absurd from my point of view. Initially, I was onboard with it being kind of confusing to read and open to interpretation, but it's starting to really feel like we're just looking for any reason within reach to dismiss it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

DC debunks in a nutshell.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not trying to downplay anybody. I'm just being the devil's advocate to solidify the consensus.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're cool, Firestorm. I know you well enough to know that you're being genuine. Not directing my passive aggressiveness to anyone in particular either.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I appreciate the need for counterarguments. I agree that this particular panel is a little difficult to read. I mean, look at it. There is literally a giant DNA coil emerging from the ether. It's clearly an abstract and awkward portrayal of an event that mankind has only theorized about and probably can't even imagine properly. That's why I was onboard with analyzing it a little bit closer at the beginning of the discussion, but the implications are just very straight forward at this point. Wally is running right behind the emerging wall of space in that picture. I don't know how it could be any clearer, short of Wally saying "I'm running right behind the emerging wall of space!"

 

[Antvasima]

There is no agenda to "keep them down". We are just trying to make the profiles as accurate and reliable as possible under the circumstances ("the circumstances" here means ridiculous amounts of inconsistency).