DC Hold back revision

[San-Kakarot]

Post-Crisis Superman has no concrete 4-B feats. Most of his feats are either moon, planet, or small star level.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

So I have two questions.
1: Why doesn’t Doomsday scale to “peak” Superman?
2: Where exactly is Hal Jordan ending up at? Cause he’s not listed anywhere.

Doomsday is 4-B. I mentioned in the blog that anyone who isn't mentoned stays the same. Doomsday isnt the mentioned so hee stays the same.

Hal Jordan is mentioned in the GL section, and should scale to GL feats. Aside from fighting Cyborg Superman a number of times, GL members are usually shown to be outclassed by peak Kryptonians.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Post-Crisis Superman has no concrete 4-B feats. Most of his feats are either moon, planet, or small star level.

That's a discussion for anther time.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Doomsday at his peak should be comparable to Superman at his peak, yes.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Doomsday is 4-B. I mentioned in the blog that anyone who isn't mentoned stays the same. Doomsday isnt the mentioned so hee stays the same.

Hal Jordan is mentioned in the GL section, and should scale to GL feats. Aside from fighting Cyborg Superman a number of times, GL members are usually shown to be outclassed by peak Kryptonians.

He's actually listed under the ones who're being downgraded to only 5-A

 

[LordTracer]

Doomsday is 4-B. I mentioned in the blog that anyone who isn't mentoned stays the same. Doomsday isnt the mentioned so hee stays the same.

Actually you put Doomsday in the “Downgraded to 5-A” section.

 

[The_Impress]

Post-Crisis Superman has no concrete 4-B feats. Most of his feats are either moon, planet, or small star level.

Can y'all folks not treat every single DC thread as your complaints centre and stick to the core thread topic for unfucking the goddamn verse in steps?

Kthx

Boy are you gonna be disappointed with the next planned thread kek

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Doomsday being in that section was a mistake on my part. I didn't intend him to be 5-A. I fixed it.

 

[Antvasima]

Can y'all folks not treat every single DC thread as your complaints centre and stick to the core thread topic for unfucking the goddamn verse in steps?

Kthx

Agreed.

Doomsday being in that section was a mistake on my part. I didn't intend him to be 5-A. I fixed it.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Greenshifter]

This is a separate thread topic YOU have to prove, this thread isn't dealing with what SUPERMAN should be, it is dealing with what EVERYONE ELSE should be.

In regards to "more tier 4 feats" you have to provide them and get them calced, because I remember a thread prior basically yeeted all 4-B reasoning except the two calcs

Wow wow calm down there. Now why would I need to prove Superman or other leaguers hold back during their feats when I can just use your own blog to argue that + some extra arguments? My main point is that the feats should be assumed them holding back unless they explicitly aren’t which seems to be the opposite of what you’re proposing, hence it’s relevant to the concept of the thread.

The last thing was just a question, so I’d like a straight answer on how many feats there are left. Which I now got more or less, so thanks.

 

[The_Impress]

Wow wow calm down there.

???

Now why would I need to prove Superman holds back during his feats when I can just use your own blog to argue that + some extra arguments? My main point is that the feats should be assumed them holding back unless they explicitly aren’t which seems to be the opposite of what you’re proposing.

And this is a separate topic, you're applying our revision the other direction as well, which noting, you're admitting to be bulking up the revision with your separate proposals that HAPPEN to have scans common with ours.

Mate do you WANT both of our revisions to end up unresolved and closed? If not you can make your separate revision, taking scans from here, and we'll see how it floats on its own merits in contrast, k?

The last thing was just an question, so I’d like a straight answer on how many feats there are left. Which I now got more or less, so thanks.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I guess the stories where superman requires extra energy from the yellow sun to defeat an enemy, is a good representation of him scale to the Superman peak, right?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Anyway.
Since the basic idea seems accepted, I would like to mention that I'll make a thread afterwards to discuss a few of the more complicated to scale guys (namely some GL members) and whoever anyone is contentious about

I guess the stories where superman requires extra energy from the yellow sun to defeat an enemy, is a good representation of him scale to the Superman peak, right?

Probably.

 

[Thelastmlg]

3-A Marvel Moonbust Energy

Amadeus hulk failed to crack the moon with a mag 100+ earthquake punch, whoever busts the moon should be 3-A, earth scales since the moon is a piece of it

 

[Greenshifter]

???

The capital letters seemed unnecessary

And this is a separate topic, you're applying our revision the other direction as well

So I’m disagreeing with a specific point of your revision and should make my own thread for that?

you're admitting to be bulking up the revision with your separate proposals that HAPPEN to have scans common with ours.

Those scans will be useful for you as well since they’ll be in the “leaguers hold back trend” which is the concept you’re trying to get across. As a matter of fact what you should have done if you just wanted to prove the “holding back” thing is give everyone currently 4-B a “higher at peak”. Yet that’s not what you’re doing.

 

[LordTracer]

Since the basic idea seems accepted, I would like to mention that I'll make a thread afterwards to discuss a few of the more complicated to scale guys (namely some GL members) and whoever anyone is contentious about

And I’d just finished a paragraph on why Hal should be in the same category as Superman, Diana and Aquaman-

 

[The_Impress]

The capital letters seemed unnecessary

...for emphasis? Seems moreso you underestimating formatting here tbh

Those scans will be useful for you as well since they’ll be in the “leaguers hold back trend” which is the concept you’re trying to get across. As a matter of fact what you should have done if you just wanted to prove the “holding back” thing is give everyone currently 4-B a “higher at peak”. Yet that’s not what you’re doing.

Ohhhh you're going that route.

Then tbh I'd rather just say that's nonsensical right here and now, mate, unless you explain why do they retain the 4-B

 

[Greenshifter]

...for emphasis? Seems moreso you underestimating formatting here tbh

I can read

Ohhhh you're going that route.

Then tbh I'd rather just say that's nonsensical, mate, unless you explain why do they retain the 4-B

Every feat done by Supes or leaguers that can be used will be them holding back or it scales to other leaguers who hold back. If you disagree with 4-B altogether then that’s also fine but then it should be 1) a separate CRT and 2) doesn’t change my argument, I’d say it should be 5-A, higher at peak in that case for instance. My main point is that you don’t know their peak and it should just be upscaling from their casual calced feats.

I can go more into detail tomorrow if necessary.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I can read

Every feat done by Supes or leaguers that can be used will be them holding back or it scales to other leaguers who hold back. If you disagree with 4-B altogether then that’s also fine but then it should be 1) a separate CRT and 2) doesn’t change my argument.

I can go more into detail tomorrow if necessary.

Not every feat Superman does like this is 'casual', in many of the feats I've come across, he struggles with far less.

1. Superman giving his power only barely helps the GLC have enough power to push a huge clump of dirt
2. Superman clearly struggling to move the planet with the help of MMH and Wondy
3. Once again struggling to move a celestial body, in this case, the moon

I don't think we should his like, two Tier 4 feats he did while he was weakened as justification for Superman being Tier 4 casually. Not only are these likely outliiers, as the majority of his weakened feats end up at Tier 5 at best, but also conflates something he does casually with something he does to hold back. This isn't about Superman's casuall feats, it's about the measures he does not to kill his opponents, which are clearly not solar-system busting attacks.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

...for emphasis? Seems moreso you underestimating formatting here tbh

Sorry being a little off-topic but I just want to say that it’s better to use italics for emphasis, as using capital letters makes it look like you’re yelling

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with everything here as well. Finally DC is getting a clean up

 

[Newendigo]

Yeah, this this gets a pass from me.

 

[Teezar]

Not every feat Superman does like this is 'casual', in many of the feats I've come across, he struggles with far less.

1. Superman giving his power only barely helps the GLC have enough power to push a huge clump of dirt
2. Superman clearly struggling to move the planet with the help of MMH and Wondy
3. Once again struggling to move a celestial body, in this case, the moon

I don't think we should his like, two Tier 4 feats he did while he was weakened as justification for Superman being Tier 4 casually. Not only are these likely outliiers, as the majority of his weakened feats end up at Tier 5 at best, but also conflates something he does casually with something he does to hold back. This isn't about Superman's casuall feats, it's about the measures he does not to kill his opponents, which are clearly not solar-system busting attacks.

Superman struggles for almost every feat he does from 5A to teir 2. He isn't really a flex character, just because he's seen like some embodiment of hope he would do all his feats casually.

Plus I don't even see firestorm here.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Not every feat Superman does like this is 'casual', in many of the feats I've come across, he struggles with far less.

1. Superman giving his power only barely helps the GLC have enough power to push a huge clump of dirt
2. Superman clearly struggling to move the planet with the help of MMH and Wondy
3. Once again struggling to move a celestial body, in this case, the moon

I agree with this CRT and I always loved the whole things of making separated keys for Superman, but isnt this part just a Lifting Strength thing? ^

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like much of this has been accepted, but it is best if a few knowledgeable members go through and evaluate which of the listed characters that should scale to what.

@Firestorm808 might be willing to help in that regard, for example.

 

[KLOL506]

Also didn't Post-Crisis Supes have his Mageddon feat revised by Firestorm808 to being High 5-A?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I feel we're getting a bit side tracked here. Let's focus on scaling everyone else first before we get to pinning down Clark, especially sense more knowledgeable members seem to have a separate revision in mind for him.

 

[The_Impress]

I can read

...nobody said you couldn't?

Every feat done by Supes or leaguers that can be used will be them holding back

As long as it's logically coherent, sure.

or it scales to other leaguers who hold back.

...Why?

If you disagree with 4-B altogether then that’s also fine

...I am genuinely so confused what you're even arguing, I thought I got it, but I didn't.

We DIDN'T make a single point FOR keeping the 4-B (at least, shouldn't have), why are you going off the presumption it has ANYTHING to do with it. Hell we've made points discussing how it's NOT at all related to the ratings Superman tiers scale to.

I am genuinely either starting to believe this is either masked derailment, or extremely poor pointmaking, either way can you like, focus?

I can go more into detail tomorrow if necessary.

Elongating CRT duration, yay. Extremely fun stuff.

Sorry being a little off-topic but I just want to say that it’s better to use italics for emphasis, as using capital letters makes it look like you’re yelling

Either/Or imo, and on mobile the Caps Lock is far easier to use since it's built-in on the keyboard, as opposed to me popping an artery over using the mobile unoptimized forum formatting tab. Also I thought basic general consensus on that was SAYING EVERY SINGLE WORD YOU CAN ALWAYS IN CAPS LOCK was the "yelling", not individual words.

So yeah unless you're willing to buy me a new PC where I can italicize just fine, be a fraction more considerate, mm?

Superman struggles for almost every feat he does from 5A to teir 2. He isn't really a flex character, just because he's seen like some embodiment of hope he would do all his feats casually.

"Superman is an inconsistent ************ with metaphorical implications, can now you please buy my BEST POSSIBLE SHOWCASE interpretation of him because I really want it?"
Shit folks say sometimes, I can talk this level of bullshit on any character in fiction.

"Yeah you see you can read No Road Home where the 1-A Nyx gets beaten up by Moon Knight and every other superhero in existence, and narration says they're all embodiments of creation, that's how 1-A Daredevil is legit bro, no ignore everything else and how writers treat the characters just focus on this singular comic because i said so, what do you mean outliers outliers don't exist because I have facts bro, facts that get contradicted by other facts and don't seem to fit in to most of the verse showcase, and get retconned whenever another cosmology structure is introduced."

Sad state of comics debating tbh, where folks read Respect Threads over the actual issues, and seeing that hyperfocused lens makes them think they're now capable at how to represent the character, for shame.

I was GONNA make the tier 2 Superman thread after this, I don't even mind the concept, but this has to be one of the worst ways to argue for it, harms the proposal more than supports it, kek

Plus I don't even see firestorm here.

Firestorm isn't Jesus, if he doesn't want to input he doesn't have to, this isn't some next level shit we haven't ever touched, this has been in Marvel for an year and talked in front of him several times.

 

[KLOL506]

I was GONNA make the tier 2 Superman thread after this, I don't even mind the concept, but this has to be one of the worst ways to argue for it, harms the proposal more than supports it, kek

This gon' be good.

 

[The_Impress]

Shh ;3

Anyways if any topic right now is brought up about SUPERMAN's 4-B rating alone, it is derailment and I'll straight up delete it.

 

[Teezar]

"Superman is an inconsistent ************ with metaphorical implications, can now you please buy my BEST POSSIBLE SHOWCASE interpretation of him because I really want it?"

Comic books in general are inconsistent, don't say it as if it's only superman. And I get your point on superman, yes he struggles with 4-B characters at times sometimes lesser than later does teir 2 or teir 1 feats and later reverts to struggling again with lesser. It don't know why writer's make it so or maybe because his some good dichotomy or just plot convince.

Shit folks say sometimes, I can talk this level of bullshit on any character in fiction.

?

"Yeah you see you can read No Road Home where the 1-A Nyx gets beaten up by Moon Knight and every other superhero in existence, and narration says they're all embodiments of creation, that's how 1-A Daredevil is legit bro, no ignore everything else and how writers treat the characters just focus on this singular comic because i said so,

No one has brought any outlier here except you trying to pull an agenda now with 1A moon knight and daredevil which isn't anyone's concern on this thread especially since it's specifically a DC thread. Yes outliers are common in DC/ marvel and we all no that especially now it's stated Lobo killed the new gods and it will be daft for anyone to bring this up since we are looking for consistent teir for them all.

what do you mean outliers outliers don't exist because I have facts bro, facts that get contradicted by other facts and don't seem to fit in to most of the verse showcase, and get retconned whenever another cosmology structure is introduced."

That's why we have this thread to give DC heralds the best teir for them.

Sad state of comics debating tbh, where folks read Respect Threads over the actual issues, and seeing that hyperfocused lens makes them think they're now capable at how to represent the character, for shame.

What are you even talking about.

I was GONNA make the tier 2 Superman thread after this, I don't even mind the concept, but this has to be one of the worst ways to argue for it, harms the proposal more than supports it, kek

I don't remember anyone pushing a teir 2 superman on

Firestorm isn't Jesus, if he doesn't want to input he doesn't have to, this isn't some next level shit we haven't ever touched, this has been in Marvel for an year and talked in front of him several times.

His easily the most knowledgeable person/staff on DC comics that's available at the moment on wiki and its possible he doesn't know about this thread. And I still don't get why you keep mentioning marvel in this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I sent a notification to Firestorm about this thread earlier today.

 

[Continuum19]

Already I see issues with that blog (John destroyed Mogo as a Black Lantern channeling powerful Indigo power, which isnt communicated in the blog, it mixes up continuities constantly, no sources, etc). I don't think the blog itself is useful and it seems like most of the noteworthy feats from it are things I've already used. Still, could be useful to look through.

1. I literally mentioned that the feat was performed by Indigo John in the blog.

2. I’ll label all of the DC feats by continuity if that’ll make things better.

3. If lack of sources is an issue I’ll take care of that as well.

 

[Confluctor]

Can we please drop the "we want to find the best tier for the heralds of DC" narrative? Because it's not the best, it's the highest, while ignoring everything else. I have been hearing this for a long time on this wiki and no one before tried to find the "best tier" other than trying to upgrade everyone and their grandmas.

 

[KLOL506]

It seems nobody still responded to finding the Kryptonite Moon feat and Larger-Than-Earth-Spaceship-With-Manhunter feat for New 52 Supes and it seems that no one bothered to change Post-Crisis Supes's 5-A to High 5-A based on the Mageddon feat, since those would be pretty important for scaling.

 

[Confluctor]

This one?



Or this:

 

[KLOL506]

The first one, as for the Kryptonite Moon thingy, I believe Superman was wearing a fancy suit and a big green moon was visible in front of us.

 

[Confluctor]

The only one I can think of ATM is this. Lemme see if I can find something else

 

[Confluctor]

The first one, as for the Kryptonite Moon thingy

Tbf that's lifting strength and not sure if it can be used for AP