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So… The Presence tier 0 with divine simplicity?
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DC Cosmology General Discussion
- Thread starter EmperorRorepmeThree
- Start date
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- Tags
- dc comics dc cosmology
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Pretty sure the “shaped by external forces” thing is an anti feat even if he qualifies for everything else
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Yes yes true
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That's just Vertigo Presence: Yahweh. To whom his physical form was retroactively shaped by beliefs. It really doesn't affect him at all, it just shows what humankind can do. On a lesser note, the Divine Presence is 0.
They just shaped him as Yahweh. He still can do what he wants and change his appearance in any way. They just gave God a face and that's literally it.
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A friend reminded me of this scan, what do you guys think?
The immediate takeaway is that the Source was shaped [into existence] by belief.
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Source origin story and understanding were shaped. That's really all there is, they didn't “create” it. Belief/hope/magic/dreams only go so far.
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Yeah. What must be remembered is that humans believe in the gods so they exist and that the gods believe in the Source so the Source exists. However, since Source was there since the beginning, as this ocean of energy flowing through all creation, it would make sense that gods' beliefs would only shape the origins around it.
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Quick question about Vertigo’s cosmology: does the Lucifer Void hold 3 creations (Lucifer’s, Elaine’s, and Yahweh’s), or infinite creations?
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Both. When Lucifer enters the Void in the location called the “Heart of Eternity” he tells us that each heartbeat(Creation dying) is a cause of one Creation’s death and another to take its place. Since the Void lacks time, everything in that space is simultaneous thus there's always a Creation.
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@Asterotheology
Yeah, I was guessing what you meant was actually from Books of Magic. Even though it is not that issue (the episode where Lucifer is mentioned), Peter Gross has a contribution to the series. Mike's Lucifer is a stand-alone series, with the Morningstar as the protagonist, rather than any of the supporting characters in the series. But of course we will use this kind of thing for cosmology. The only catch is Swamp Thing and Hellblazer and how important it is to use them.
Yeah, I was guessing what you meant was actually from Books of Magic. Even though it is not that issue (the episode where Lucifer is mentioned), Peter Gross has a contribution to the series. Mike's Lucifer is a stand-alone series, with the Morningstar as the protagonist, rather than any of the supporting characters in the series. But of course we will use this kind of thing for cosmology. The only catch is Swamp Thing and Hellblazer and how important it is to use them.
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I am of the opinion of using them both because of their importance and how DC treated them but even if we can't use it all, we should at least use Alan Moore/Garth Ennis/Carey contribution.
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The distinction is meaningless, whether its an infinite number of Creations or an infinite permutation of three, the result is the same.
The story leaves it uncertain for a reason.
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I want the base to be Sandman. I know many things in Sandman existed before it, but the limit for our cosmology should start there. If you have any notable recommendations from Fables, Hellblazer, and Swamp Thing, it should be along the lines of the Sandman story.
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That would need a reread but I do remember Garth Ennis in The Demon talking connecting the stories with Gaiman's Sandman.
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I would like to see more concrete things on this subject.
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I would have to reread it further. Swamp Thing, still to my opinion, should be considered. Aside from the inspiration that Gaiman had taken, we see it being connected. Matthew the Raven, Cain and Abel, the Great Darkness storyline, and even the Aleph that Lucifer uses is from Swamp Thing.
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The history of the characters you mentioned goes back further than both Sandman and Swamp Thing. As for the Great Darkness, what we saw in Swamp Thing was mentioned in Sandman by Lucifer himself. But how we will use it is a big question mark. It's clear that the Aleph was inspired by Swamp Thing or another series. But for example, the Source is in this situation, what I mean is actually not like small references. But if you can still open this, I can help you. I am not against taking references from the questionable series I mentioned. But it is difficult to get what we need.
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Question about the Vertigo separation, are we allowed to composite hax and statements for members of the Endless, or just leave out anything from their non-Vertigo appearances?
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As long as it doesn't contradict anything we know of them. However, given we separated the Presence profile and only included the feats in their specific continuity would likely alleviate we do the same for the Endless. So I highly doubt we do the composite feat, hax, or statement unless it's completely identical.
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Deagon said it wouldn't be a problem.
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Sorry for the late response. Anyway, Yeah, I agree with this. I'm of the opinion that Sandman should've always been the base for the Vertigo Cosmology. While I have no problem with Carey's work being included, Lucifer has never been the main part of Vertigo. It has always been Sandman with its many spinoffs and continuations. It makes more sense to prioritizes it over Lucifer.
Now, with that out of the way. I caught up to the revision thread and see that Tim was brought up as potentially being 1-A. This brings interesting questions to the table. Those being where Faerie realm scales, where Tim's shadow worlds scale and if it would increase his rating higher. From what we know, his shadow worlds are completely independent from the True world, with their own destinies as shown in Issue #51. In issue #55, we see that one of the worlds contain its own version of Faerie. Which we know is true because Titania in the true world is still alive after Tim's evil other destroyed that entire world. She also mentions nothing of what happened in that world as seen in Issue #66 and #67 when she visits Dream Tamlin in the inn. Showing there's indeed a separation and that the two Titania's and Faerie realms aren't the same.
So, the question would be what would Tim's created worlds be tiered as for containing their own version of the Faerie Realm? And would that boost Tim even higher? I'm not sure where Faerie scales on this site, but each of Tim's worlds should contain their own version of it. I didn't include the Dreaming, Heaven, Hell and so on because there's no evidence for it. Well, beyond Barbatos of an older Tim showing up, which implies that Hell does exist in one of the worlds and Heaven is stated to be its opposite in Issue #66.
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Yes, Crisis Cosmology.
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Is there a reason to suggest the shadow world is illusory or just fiction to the true world?
I've read it and I personally think it warrants layers into 1-A. However, there's talk between me and Ultima about a High 1-A+ Cosmology, so there's that.
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Weaver261
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I've said this in a discussion thread I made before. This is from countdown issue 49 and it's said here that
Timestream is a place unaffected by the flow of time or confines in dimensional space. And it's where Monitor Satellite exists.
We know that Timestream is Fourth Dimension in term of Scott Synder's plane of existences. We know that Monitors observed and monitored Orrery of world from there. So my question here is "are timestream and hypertime the same?". I know hypertime is once called a web of time streams. But Hypertime is also stated to be outside of time which is the same of timestream. In DC Comics Cosmology page here :
Speed force is currently 1-A for having Gallery of moments. In flash vol 4 issue 8, timestream is also stated to be seen from speed force. This doesn't mean much but they have connections. This scan from Alan Moore swamp thing comic stated :
Orrery is currently H1-C for 11D and we've jumped straight into fifth dimension to be 1-B without addressing the fourth dimension "Timestream". Imo, fourth dimension should be at least low 1-A alongside with Divine Continnnum considering how physical world can unfold into beyond math shapes. It's not confined in dimensional space. How do you think about this?
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It's not specific enough nor that well elaborated for a 1-A rating.
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It's crazy that except for God level, the others are 1-A. They contain no R>F or qualitative superiority elements. They are 1-B and should be Possibly Low 1-A only.
Weaver261
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I'm not suggesting for 1-A, only L 1-A here for Divine Continnum and Timestream
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I think “possibly Low 1-A” is better then. Though, if you want to apply said rating you're going to have to make a CRT for it.
Weaver261
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Currently, it's 1-B so it's not much of an upgrade but will other higher dimensions like Fifth and Sixth will upscale from there or? Fifth dimension is said to be Imagination which shouldn't have reality properties and also have a scan of mxyzptlk reverting back the comic to sketches.
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1-B to Low 1-A is a big upgrade. Your example is meant to entail what?
Weaver261
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Well....if Divine Continnum and Timestream(Fourth Dimension) became L 1-A, fifth dimension as a higher plane of existence should transcend over it. I'm saying is it possible to get existences above fourth dimension as 1-A from there or not. Sphere of the gods also have multiple scans of indicating platonic ideas.
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The Timestream statement could literally just mean four-dimensional space and that in fact makes more sense.
The Sphere having platonic ideas is not even used correctly and doesn't scale correctly to it.
Weaver261
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If u only look at countdown scan, that would be true but Scott Synder already said these dimensions are plane of existences. It's also said there that it's not confines of dimensional space. So, equating four-dimensional space to Fourth Dimension is not possible here. Also more....Monitor Satellite later became house of heros which is stated as "pan dimensional room". I know stuffs like pan dimensional, transgeometric doesn't mean much here but tiering system said :
Pan Dimensional = pertaining to all dimensions of reality. Divine Continnum is also all time and all spaces.
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Pan-dimensional by itself literally doesn't mean much. Especially if the dimensions are finite.
Why would the Timestream scale to the Divine Continuum? If the Timestream was accepted as Low 1-A by your proposal then everything would logically be bumped up in tiers.
Weaver261
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In the case where timestream and hypertime being the same. I don't see much contexts about the difference between the two
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I don't see how this interpretation is valid with the current information we have.
Weaver261
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Timestream is outside the flow of time and Hypertime is also outside of time. The difference between timestream and hypertime wasn't clarified as far as I know. But both of them represents all possible time.
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Hypertime is literally “Time” as in the abstract concept, not a dimension of time.
Weaver261
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Well, it's technically a place outside multiverse. In justice league vol 3 issue 33, cyborg and his team went into hypertime.
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