DC Cosmology General Discussion

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Fax, what yall opinion on Lucifer being the Great Darkness

He could be an avatar or a manifestation of the Great Darkness as well, at least according to more recent writers like with Dan Watters' Lucifer (2018).

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

To make it very short, I think a separate Morrison cosmology is possible but only with the following material: Animal Man, JLA, Doom Patrol, Action Comics...

Final Crisis, Multiversity, Green Lantern (2019) should stay in the Crisis Cosmology since the very basis of Scott Snyder and Joshua Williamson's works were primarily based on what Morrison established since Final Crisis and Multiversity. It wouldn't make sense to not add them.

Back on the topic now.

@Antvasima @Deagonx Thoughts?

 

[Deagonx]

I don't think a pre-2000 Morrison cosmology is significant enough to warrant it's own section in our blog, personally. The other issue is that even during that era Morrison was wildly inconsistent, which would make it hard to index accurately.

 

[Elizio33]

I don't think a pre-2000 Morrison cosmology is significant enough to warrant it's own section in our blog, personally. The other issue is that even during that era Morrison was wildly inconsistent, which would make it hard to index accurately.

I think it would be quite coherent, on the contrary. Morrison's pre-2000 cosmology is possible and we know for sure that:

The material multiverse is 4-D

The Fifth Dimension is outside creation and transgeometric compared to the first four dimensions, but is a higher mathematical realm that can be affected by physics.

There are sixth-dimensional bottles and eight-dimensional mazes that can contain fifth-dimensional beings.

Anyway, there are other things I won't mention here.

 

[Deagonx]

I think it would be quite coherent, on the contrary. Morrison's pre-2000 cosmology is possible and we know for sure that:

The material multiverse is 4-D

The Fifth Dimension is outside creation and transgeometric compared to the first four dimensions, but is a higher mathematical realm that can be affected by physics.

There are sixth-dimensional bottles and eight-dimensional mazes that can contain fifth-dimensional beings.

Anyway, there are other things I won't mention here.

Right but take for instance the term "astral." In one storyline it refers to heaven, in another it refers to an underworld for soulless husks, in another it refers to a platonic mind-state where a girls imaginary characters live.

 

[Elizio33]

Right but take for instance the term "astral." In one storyline it refers to heaven, in another it refers to an underworld for soulless husks, in another it refers to a platonic mind-state where a girls imaginary characters live.

Okay, I understand your point, but we should at very least try and if it doesn't make sense we can consider not adding a separate pre-2000 Morrison cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, I understand your point, but we should at very least try and if it doesn't make sense we can consider not adding a separate pre-2000 Morrison cosmology.

So what should we do then?

 

[Elizio33]

So what should we do then?

Maybe try starting a sandbox and see if it works at first or, as @Deagonx says, avoid it if it's too complicated.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems like a good idea then. Feel free to do so if you wish.

 

[Executor_N0]

This is quite funny, when Grant Morrison heard that DC was getting back at using Hypertime, they made a post on their Xanaduum archive with the sole reason of helping DC not get the concept wrong

It's more of what we already know, but he does leave the amount of "higher temporal dimensions" open to higher beings (Such as hypercube time), and it doesn't stop at 3.

Given time point and timeline, it was obvious what came next, and here was where it got interesting – point, line, plane…

There had to be a time plane, and I imagined what that would look like, as a flat sheet with all the various timelines – parallel worlds alternate histories, cancelled continuities – laid side by side across the time plane like multitudinous rail tracks, sometimes crossing over, branching off, reconnecting, terminating.

The 2-D timeplane was what all of your comics looked like spread out on a massive floor. Where 1938 Superman could exist at the same time on the same floor as 2022 Superman.

The time plane naturally implied a time cube of stacked realities, piled timeplanes extending perpendicularly into our own dimensionality (both the aliens in 52 and Bat-Mite in Batman call this cube Space B, implying that Space A is the Timeplane).

From there you can do hypercube time and so on, in each case imagining a more panoramic and elaborate picture which not only includes we, the readers, but also potentially higher dimensional forms of life or intelligence existing ‘above’ our own.

The idea of Grant doing this in fear of the concept getting misunderstood is quite telling considering how many times DC changes where Hypertime fits in.

 

[Elizio33]

This is quite funny, when Grant Morrison heard that DC was getting back at using Hypertime, they made a post on their Xanaduum archive with the sole reason of helping DC not get the concept wrong

It's more of what we already know, but he does leave the amount of "higher temporal dimensions" open to higher beings (Such as hypercube time), and it doesn't stop at 3.

The idea of Grant doing this in fear of the concept getting misunderstood is quite telling considering how many times DC changes where Hypertime fits in.

Interesting

 

[Ramasugita11]

Interesting

What do you think about the unreasonable split cosmology? They say the anti-monitor JW is the creation of the great evil when it is very clear to say, the anti-monitor is cursed [controlled]
HH Here they say it https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/D...=search#Why_Divide_the_Different_Cosmologies?

 

[Deagonx]

What do you think about the unreasonable split cosmology? They say the anti-monitor JW is the creation of the great evil when it is very clear to say, the anti-monitor is cursed [controlled]

You're correct in that the Anti-Monitor was not created by the GD, but corrupted by it, so that could be updated but since we're combining those cosmologies it's likely to just be removed completely.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Interesting

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, and James Tynion IV; J.M. DeMatteis; and Neil...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This seems forced, TGD creates antimonitor? Even though in the comics, he is only controlled by TGD. Also Empty Hand is said to be the avatar of the TGD comic Joshua, Even though in the comic it says empty hand is his right hand, not his avatar

 

[Ramasugita11]

You're correct in that the Anti-Monitor was not created by the GD, but corrupted by it, so that could be updated but since we're combining those cosmologies it's likely to just be removed completely.

My network is lagging, I think my message hasn't been sent. There are actually many more, for example Hecate, the creator of the gods, even though in the comics it is clear that the sphere of the gods existed before.Hecate went into darkness and the sphere of the gods above her, meaning she went into the dark multiverse

• In the Gaiman/Carey stories all gods were created from Dream of the Endless through the power of dreams and beliefs,[171] while in the Snyder stories they were created from Hecate's Collective Unconscious.[52]

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It didn't say Hecate created them. They merged through the belief of humans which took shape and grew as the Multiverse grew. Hecate symbolizes the Collective Unconscious, she didn't create it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33

What are the conclusions here so far, and what should currently be done here?

 

[Ramasugita11]

When do we apply dc 1a? sandman lucifer [not black label] is also part of overvoid.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Overvoid isn’t used as a concept in Vertigo.

 

[LazyMortician]

Yesterday it occurred to me why Lucifer doesn't have Aca5, actually he should have it but I guess I missed something.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yesterday it occurred to me why Lucifer doesn't have Aca5, actually he should have it but I guess I missed something.

Perhaps the causality within Creation but his not free from everything. Something still does affect him and most beings can interact or cause some type of damage to him, if played right.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Yesterday it occurred to me why Lucifer doesn't have Aca5, actually he should have it but I guess I missed something.

The type 5 acausality standards were revised. It's no longer enough to be "free from all laws/concepts" or something akin to that, you now need evidence of existing in a non-interactable or unchanging state because of a causality transcendence. Lucifer's Aca5 was actually one of the first to get yeeted.

 

[LazyMortician]

Perhaps the causality within Creation but his not free from everything. Something still does affect him and most beings can interact or cause some type of damage to him, if played right.

Just because he's interactable shouldn't prevent him from doing so entirely. Moreover, he has now isolated himself from everything with a less absolute and subjective view. There is no one other than Yahweh who can interact with him.

Cestis wanted Lucifer's gate because he was tired of all this time, space, and causality nonsense, and once he got out of creation, they would be free of this situation. Now Lucifer was absolutely and unchangeably detached from all this cause and effect.

 

[LazyMortician]

The type 5 acausality standards were revised. It's no longer enough to be "free from all laws/concepts" or something akin to that, you now need evidence of existing in a non-interactable or unchanging state because of a causality transcendence. Lucifer's Aca5 was actually one of the first to get yeeted.

Lucifer certainly got what he wanted, he escaped from his own function.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Lucifer certainly got what he wanted, he escaped from his own function.

Let me link you to the standards revision thread.

Let's get the requirements out of the way: to qualify you need to have some statements that you're beyond causality to the point of being an unchangeable entity (essentially being unaffected by anything and everything that would affect the world in some way shape or form). Both of these are required for type 5 to be validated, as without these two, it can be taken as either a resistance to causality manipulation or type 4 Acausality or some other ability depending on the context. The same applies to the alleged acausal character being interactable by normal people, or more generally beings that have absolutely no precedent for being able to do that as that would be an anti-feat and would be one of the two mentioned prior.

Qualifies: TES Gods, Madoka Kaname, Time Lords (Doctor Who), Chaos Gods (Warhammer [possibly Type 5]), Cradle Robber (possibly Type 5), MSPA reader, The Ultimate Gods (Cthulhu Mythos), Sun Wukong, Light and Darkness (Destiny), Dragon Talisman characters, Axl Low, Gao Chuan, Marvel characters, SCP characters, Sage Monarch characters

Disqualifies: Lucifer Morningstar, Oryx, the Taken King, Homestuck characters (7), WoD characters, Umineko characters, I/O characters, AWLB characters, Transformers characters, SMT characters, Luminous Being, Alpha Centauri, Oblivion, Akuto Sai, Law of Identity, DC characters, Tokyo Babel characters, M, Unwritten, Gods of Heaven, Twin Peaks, Mana-Yood-Sushai, Dorozhand, Q, Sassy the Sasquatch, Swirl of the Root, Downstreamers, Animorph characters, The Starmaker, The Narrator, The Player, Goddess of the Manifold, The Illusionist, Mother Eater, Yogiri Takatou

Lucifer was actually the first one to get his Aca5 removed.

• Acausality (Type 5; Yahweh's plan is stated to have been an all-encompassing "scheme" which contains all of creation,[12] with Destiny of the Endless having described events such as Michael's arrival at his home as all a part of this "scheme"[13] and Destiny having been the source of cause and effect in Yahweh's cosmos.[14] Lucifer specifically is described as having escaped his function from the scheme and as such the causality of it[1] )

Looks like type 4 Acausality at best, nothing about it mentions being in an unchangeable state as a result of Lucifer being outside of the function of cause and effect.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm curious, how the new Tiering System would affect the DC Cosmologies?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm curious, how the new Tiering System would affect the DC Cosmologies?

It'll heavily favor Matteis and Vertigo due to their supernatural elements.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Just because he's interactable shouldn't prevent him from doing so entirely. Moreover, he has now isolated himself from everything with a less absolute and subjective view. There is no one other than Yahweh who can interact with him.

Yeah, but that's the Void’s nature and not really him.

Cestis wanted Lucifer's door because he was tired of all this time, space, and causality nonsense, and once he got out of creation, they would be free of this situation. Now Lucifer was absolutely and unchangeably detached from all this cause and effect.

He's not in any system, of course, he won't be affected by cause and effect because there isn't any in the Void.

 

[Elizio33]

It'll heavily favor Matteis and Vertigo due to their supernatural elements.

Yeah DeMatteis and Vertigo Cosmologies would cap at 1-A and i suppose that the Overvoid would return to 1-A too?

 

[LazyMortician]

Let me link you to the standards revision thread.

Lucifer was actually the first one to get his Aca5 removed.

In general terms, it is clear to everyone that it is outside and beyond all cause and effect, and causality as a whole, the problem is to prove that it is unchangeable and in fact they could not fully defend this there. I'll leave a message in the thread starter. I can open a separate thread if necessary.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yeah DeMatteis and Vertigo Cosmologies would cap at 1-A and i suppose that the Overvoid would return to 1-A too?

Under Ultima revision, he said God from Matteis is 0. Due to the fact, that the entire premise is from Matteis's similar view. Where God is the only one and true Reality while the main Reality is an Illusion and finite to God and is fictitious to him.

He agreed Yahweh's “unbound state” or his true nature might be 0. Monad as he calls 0 and Lucifer series is a Gnostic who believes in the One/Monad. I told him Yahweh contains the Void and explained it and he might agree but he was weary on Yahweh's state as God of Creation rather than Absolute Supreme.

 

[LazyMortician]

Yeah, but that's the Void’s nature and not really him.

He's not in any system, of course, he won't be affected by cause and effect because there isn't any in the Void.

Is it the nature of the void that it escapes from its own function? This is the nature of the void, yes, but this success belongs to Lucifer.

 

[Elizio33]

Under Ultima revision, he said God from Matteis is 0. Due to the fact, that the entire premise is from Matteis's similar view. Where God is the only one and true Reality while the main Reality is an Illusion and finite to God and is fictitious to him.

He agreed Yahweh's “unbound state” or his true nature might be 0. Monad as he calls 0 and Lucifer series is a Gnostic who believes in the One/Monad. I told him Yahweh contains the Void and explained it and he might agree but he was weary on Yahweh's state as God of Creation rather than Absolute Supreme.

DeMatteis Divine Presence being Tier 0 makes sense. The Presence from Vertigo should definitely be 1-A at least. I don't know for the Overvoid, maybe Tier 1-A?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

DeMatteis Divine Presence being Tier 0 makes sense. The Presence from Vertigo should definitely be 1-A at least. I don't know for the Overvoid, maybe Tier 1-A?

If he goes by Morrison's view that Overvoid is Supreme then maybe 0. I believe The Presence and God are 0 under his view. Pralaya will be probably High 1-A+.

 

[LazyMortician]

I think Lucifer and Michael can reach High 1-A.

 

[Elizio33]

If he goes by Morrison's view that Overvoid is Supreme then maybe 0. I believe The Presence and God are 0 under his view. Pralaya will be probably High 1-A+.

Well, the idea that the Great Darkness > Overvoid cannot be refuted so I guess that Tier 0 wouldn't works.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, the idea that the Great Darkness > Overvoid cannot be refuted so I guess that Tier 0 wouldn't works.

Yeah, and the Great Darkness doesn't also fit the “Supreme stick.”

I'm genuinely curious if he'll merge Matteis's personal story with one he writes for DC because the God characters work. However, I don't think creator-owned content will count, so Seekers won't be added to the main stories he writes for DC. This means Maya can be High 1-A+ in Seekers and Pralaya High 1-A+ for DC. However, if he did make both since Matteis uses a lot of Hindu and we can make a sort of holistic canon then Maya would be High 1-A and Pralaya High 1-A+. I asked Matteis and he told me Pralaya transcends Maya being the birthplace of Creation. Maya embodies the Dream(Creation) and Pralaya embodies the Illusion(Anything that isn't God, so everything else including Maya).

 

[LazyMortician]

Yeah, and the Great Darkness doesn't also fit the “Supreme stick.”

I'm genuinely curious if he'll merge Matteis's personal story with one he writes for DC because the God characters work. However, I don't think creator-owned content will count, so Seekers won't be added to the main stories he writes for DC. This means Maya can be High 1-A+ in Seekers and Pralaya High 1-A+ for DC. However, if he did make both since Matteis uses a lot of Hindu and we can make a sort of holistic canon then Maya would be High 1-A and Pralaya High 1-A+. I asked Matteis and he told me Pralaya transcends Maya being the birthplace of Creation. Maya embodies the Dream(Creation) and Pralaya embodies the Illusion(Anything that isn't God, so everything else including Maya).

If a lower manifestation of the Monad would be 0, could characters that have its powers, and scale to it, also be 0? Ultima seems to have hinted at this... Or is this an anti-feat?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If a lower manifestation of the Monad would be 0, could characters that have its powers, and scale to it, also be 0? Ultima seems to have hinted at this... Or is this an anti-feat?

You can't scale to or down from 0. It's not within the system as Ultimate claims. High 1-A+ is the highest you can go with the system. Meaning if Yahweh is God who is 0 then he still is the same Moand so he'll always be 0 unless there's something that takes away from him or are contradictions with his nature to disprove he was ever 0. The anti-feat would need context and ultimately won't affect 0 that much unless they were never supposed to be 0 to begin with.

 

[Asterotheology]

DeMatteis Divine Presence being Tier 0 makes sense. The Presence from Vertigo should definitely be 1-A at least. I don't know for the Overvoid, maybe Tier 1-A?

By the way, with the Crisis Cosmology upgraded and finished, is it time to make the Divine Presence/Smile profile for the DeMatteis Cosmology? It's probably best to get it up and running before Ultima's revision is completed so that it can be properly evaluated. Especially with it qualifying for transduality and potentially several other abilities. It'll need that all of that passed.