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To note, that whole back and forward from this was unnecessary in a bad way, you should have asked this in private. Anyone can reveal some extra info while keeping more that seem to matter as much.
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DC Comics - Spectre Low 1-C AP Proposal
- Thread starter Oliver_de_jesus
- Start date
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- dc comics neron the spectre
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I wouldn't call it inconsistent, moreso has a varied power mechanism
As for the idea that hell and heaven aren't higher d and not infinite or whatever... That's just plain wrong and silly. they exists on at least a 6D plane. That's more than enough to warrant a higher tier for them. And spectre affecting them is more than enough to get the tier he deserves. Either downgrade every aspect of Sphere of God, which is plain stupid, if not, then just follow the standards and treat feats the way it's meant to be instead of making up some new mechanism and some stuff to disqualify it.
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Aren't they considered metaphysical on the wiki? If so, would they not lack physical dimensions?
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It wasn't as if Deagonx had to say that it was "his" interview, but I digress. It doesn't really matter anyway.
Why are you trying to make this an issue? Everybody here can understand what I mean when I say "general level of existence" in this context. How "big" the "god worlds" are relative to each other is ultimately an academic question, one irrelevant to this thread as a whole, because they're all at least Low 1-C anyway.
Grant Morrison only said that "none of it [the map] is spatial or time based" in your conception of things. How you, by your own logic, extrapolated that to "he's not claiming that none of these realms have space or time, but rather their placement on the map is not correlated to actual spatial positioning relative to each other" is beyond me, because by your own logic, all you're doing is based on assumptions without evidence. The only person performing "mental gymnastics" is you right now.
Nobody here is claiming that the map is structured in a way to show compass directions, because that's not what the map is even about. The DC Map of the Multiverse, like any cosmogram, is mean to depict the overall structure of the DC cosmology (circa Multiversity). And in the overall structure, the afterlife realms are in the same wider plane of existence, one overall higher than that of the Orrery of Worlds, the Bleed, or the Speed Force.
Why are you continually isolating the first half of that quote as "evidence" while ignoring the second half? Once you take the second part of that quote, the part that begins with "you really cannot do a map beyond imagination", the context of the quote becomes very clear. It's about how the Sixth Dimension relates to the multiverse map, first and foremost.
You don't need express help to visualize a preexisting map that's already drawn for you. Also, it's not Grant Morrison's direct words here, but Scott Snyder's retelling of them. Some things could be lost in translation due to that, for reasons I hope I don't have to explain. We shouldn't interpret these as if they're direct Grant Morrison quotes anyway.
And I noticed that you're not really transcribing Scott Snyder's answer in it's totality anyway, and I feel that this is a big problem for the discussion's integrity, so let's go to 7:00 and transcribe it in full. Anyone can go to the video and confirm the accuracy of the transcription below. Even the stutters and grammar errors are replicated here. The answer is finished at the tail end of the video. And from it, it's even more clear that it's all about how the Sixth Dimension relates to the Map of the Multiverse, and not the multiverse map itself.
Rando coming from his voice in Deagonx's other uploaded interview videos: You know, I really liked the Sixth Dimension. So...you know...in Multiversity which Grant made, you know you got that map...um, and...you know and I was wondering if you could you know sort of your vision for the Sixth Dimension...relative to the map. What, uh...you know what kind of was, was your take on that? What, what kind of were you going for with that?
Scott Snyder: Well I spoke to Grant about that. The hard thing is it was funny 'cause it was like...I was talking to him about it and I was like 'I want to visualize the map' and he's like 'well the map is such a...the map is always a pain in the ass because none of it would be spatial or time based', do you know what I mean, so...there really isn't a way to...to do a map when you're talking about a realm of...it's beyond imagination or...imagination it's totally...counter-intuitive. So it's hard to place that layer.
Scott Snyder (cont): The way that I like to think of it, even though again it doesn't really make sense geographically...was that it existed towards like...'cause if the Sixth Dimension is the place where beings that exist beyond our imagination that are capable of things we can't fathom...sort of form, that it would be almost towards the top where...you know above...uh it was at the top of the sphere. So it was almost like...the beings that wind up coming down...that are responsible for uh...that are responsible for sort of writing the rules of things...wind up coming down from the top in that regard and then planets that come up from the dark bubble up through the House of Heroes...and all of that. From the Dark Multiverse into the main multiverse, and the House of Heroes kind of stands at the center of it.
Scott Snyder (cont): And at the top, yeah, and at (unintelligible part) it's sort of like...it's almost spherical...so I see it, I mean that...it's not just like a layer it's a realm. It's sort of like...it exists 'out of here', where...it's more for...if things that aren't supposed to die, die, or killed, they kind of 'come back' through that. And they're responsible for forming...this sort of major laws and rules of what's going to come into the multiverse from that outer realm, almost like a...not a bubble wrap but kind of like...layers...
Rando (interrupting): A dome?
Scott Snyder (cont): ...yeah like a spherical layer that surround it...before the Source Wall*
Rando: And that's around, around the whole thing, like the Source Wall and the modern-
Scott Snyder (interrupting): ...yeah...no, well the Source Wall to me is the actual, is the actual...boundary of it before it was broken.
Rando: Okay, before it was broken. So it's kind of over...like you have the Sphere of the Gods and Nil and, and it's just kind of like that. Kind of like a...I don't know, like a perch...the, for the top beings. Is that right?
Scott Snyder: Yeah and there no...there's no ruler of it or anything like that. It's sort of like something that they wind up...if somebody is killed that shouldn't be killed and he needs to exist in our...universe, they kind of reform there and come back through. It can take...if, if the whole thing is in jeopardy and breaks like the Source Wall breaks...that's the protective membrane around it, where you're going to sort of...reform the structure of things. That's why because the Source Wall broke it was accessible, you know what I mean? It's almost like it's the emergency...it's like the emergency layer that's like the...
Rando: Keeps everyone else out?
Scott Snyder: Yeah, it's sort of like the jelly that goes around everything where it's like...if the being...if one of the major beings die that shouldn't die, they reform there and come back in. But if the Source Wall breaks, and the universe falls apart, and they have the chance to rebuild it, they rebuild it from there. It's almost like a...not a control room, but like a kind of triage, you know a triage room, the layer like that. Does that make sense?
Rando: Yeah so that's sort of why the World Forger came back even though it was said like Barbatos killed him at one point.
Scott Snyder: Yeah, exactly. That's where he was reforming. That's why he was there. So if like Barbatos or any of the kind of super cosmic beings died they would...be there...and then you could either pull them and trap them in the Source Wall, or they could come down into the multiverse.
Rando: Okay, thank you I really appreciate it.
Scott Snyder: Yeah, that's, and by the way someone might...take it, write it in a different way, and then they're right...so we'll never (recording starts glitching up) we'll never have an answer. It really is, I think the gist-point I was trying to make about this stuff is that...we really do, we do care about it a lot. Like James and I, and Josh when we do Metal, and we're doing Death Metal now. Like, we read all of the stuff, I talk to Grant, you know, we talk to...um...uh...ah anyone that we can speak to about...you know, the rules and regulations, the deepest DC fans in editorial there about it because we don't want to step on anything. But the fun of it is to try and...find the pieces you're inspired by and...be additive. You know, no one's trying to...break anything or...detract from the DC universe, it's all about adding to it.
Scott Snyder (cont): So the idea is trying to say, well, yes the Source Wall was the boundary, but if we go past it, can you create something that...gives an equal sense of...mystery, awe, all of that, and then creates a mythology that's only gonna keep that...that's what Grant was saying when we were talking and he's like 'if you break the Source Wall, you gotta put something on the other side of it that's equally...you know...sort of wonderous and terrifying.' And I was like 'yeah I know and I am.' And he's like 'let me guess.' He's like 'you know they break the Source Wall, and on the other side it's Marvel Comics.' And I was like 'oh if only, if only.' If only we could do that, if it was like the Source Wall breaks at the end of Metal and then you see the Silver Surfer...know what I mean? And it's like, the beginning of the DC-Marvel crossover. I'd do it in a "sah"**, I'd write Batman on that. I'd do that. I would do that.
*it's sounds like "sirkwall" to me, but given later context, he was clearly trying to say "Source Wall". I couldn't tell at first because Scott Snyder's manner of speech can get very unclear at times, what with all the stuttering that tends to become downright unintelligible at times.
**I think he tried to say "second".
Why are you acting as if the above quote from Antvasima didn't address anything?
1. The Asmodel scans Sandman brought up didn't prove anything other than that Superman Blue fought Asmodel once. They certainly didn't mention a thing about how Asmodel was in his "full glory" on Earth in that storyline.
2. What @Oliver_de_jesus already posted.
Tiering System
The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system which this wiki utilizes in order to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats, and the varying scopes which they can affect or create/destroy. However, it...
vsbattles.fandom.com
""Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc."
Spectre putting out all of Hell's fires with his will almost certainly counts for at least "warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question".
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What does that have to do with anything?
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Many realms otherwise considered "metaphysical" in this wiki are given a "dimensional tier" or some other kind of high tier based on their existential level, because it's simply how this wiki does things like this.
If you don't like it, make a content revision thread about it.
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I think he's trying to argue that because the realms involved are "nonphysical" or something like that, then they shouldn't even be given a tier (or any tier) as if they're "physical" spaces.
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You just described them as 6-dimensional?
That seems exceptionally odd.
Okay. But to be clear, it isn't forbidden to challenge standards in a CRT without creating a whole new thread.
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Why wouldn't I? I was literally the one who did it.
Why are we assuming they are at least Low 1-C?
It's embarrassingly childish for you to insist upon this idea that I lied about conducting an interview, uploaded on my "Deagonx" Vimeo account two years ago, along with several other videos with my voice in it. Are you supposing I just stole some guys videos and put them on my vimeo years ago to take false credit for them or something?
Jesus dude. Oh and great job putting my full name in your comment after finding it in another video, that's totally not doxxing.
Because the first half is evidence in and of itself, and you are trying very hard to pretend it's only meant to apply to the Sixth Dimension, when the wording obviously implies it isn't.
Because it literally does not mention any of my specific arguments.
Putting out a universe's worth of fires shouldn't be interpretted to mean you are universal. This is such a non-feat, and if this is the primary evidence for scaling Spectre to Heaven, I completely disagree with it.
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Right
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Time to downgrade a few dozen verses based on that. LETSGOOO
But in all seriousness, no. That's not how it works.
Oliver_de_jesus
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I mean, what are you waiting for? most of the fiction deals with the higher dimensions being made of their own form of abstract matter (example: the time-based fifth dimension, its inhabitants are made of time rather than normal matter)
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We are NOT going to downgrade most tiers because of reasons like this. Again, as long as a higher dimension has infinite superiority over another one, that's fine for tiering purposes.
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Only if you've somehow remained completely ignorant of how the process of standard-making has been going on in this wiki for years now.
It isn't "forbidden" (per se), but it is certainly looked down upon as "derailing" a thread if you go about it too long without just making a new thread about it.
These videos are all public. Anyone can see them. They show the full names of most everyone involved in them. If you were so squeamish about "doxxing", you would have edited it all out.
It doesn't really matter to me why you have those videos up to begin with.
Because they've been universally agreed upon to transcend the Bleed, itself universally agreed upon to be at least 5-D.
You're basically arguing against what has been universally established for several years now.
And the second half contextualizes the first half as referring to the Sixth Dimension.
Because he was arguing in broad strokes.
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This does not change the fact that you went through my account to look an unrelated videos to pull my real name, and posted it here literally no reason. That's doxxing.
"Established for years" isn't synonymous with "correct"
No, it doesn't. The first half was about the map. The wording makes that completely certain.
That does not mean the arguments have been addressed.
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 23,292
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blowing out all the stars in one fell swoop, leaving the entire universe in a state of heat death/frozed isn't that a universal feat? because that's literally what the Spectre does
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Just saw this, and wanted to say this, if you have issues with site standards in general, it's fine to question it, but challenging it... Yes, you need a new thread, or at least a Q&A thread if you don't understand something. We have got process for stuff like this.
Seems like your issue with standards. Might want to create a proper thread and get it downgraded. Otherwise this isn't really the place for it.
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I was making an analogy regarding his Heaven feat, not that.
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That is accurate, yes. Sorry about that, Deagonx, but Confluctor is correct here.
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That text on what "Significantly affect" means I proposed should be more abundantly clear on what it means, it has been misused many times. I can use for example this to prove that it roughly meant "A feat would need to prove that it has equal power to destroying or creating [X structure] to be labeled as "significantly affect", any other feat that does something to [X structure] and it seems notable but we don't know by how much does not count".
Put out all of Hell's fire is cool and all but with no statement that it's equal to destroy all of Hell, it simply wouldn't mean that. Comparisons with structures we can understand don't help either.
Put out all of Hell's fire is cool and all but with no statement that it's equal to destroy all of Hell, it simply wouldn't mean that. Comparisons with structures we can understand don't help either.
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But aren't Hell's fires pretty much an intrinsic part of Hell itself though?
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Can't get the scans, cause thanks RCO for being stupid, but in Day of Judgment #1, page 3 or 4, it's stated that Spectre's power far dwarves that of Neron. And when they fight later in the issue? Yep, Spectre wins.
Few pages down, he says that the fire will be hist to control. Controlling fire means controlling entirety of hell, as well as it's residents.
Next page down, he broke the veils between hell and earthly plane. Effects of which can be seen two pages after it fully
Few pages down, the other god realms are scared that spectre will wreck them apart too and are scared of him.
Second page after that, he says he will destroy heaven too.
Few pages down, he says that the fire will be hist to control. Controlling fire means controlling entirety of hell, as well as it's residents.
Next page down, he broke the veils between hell and earthly plane. Effects of which can be seen two pages after it fully
Few pages down, the other god realms are scared that spectre will wreck them apart too and are scared of him.
Second page after that, he says he will destroy heaven too.
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Why does controlling fire mean controlling the entirety of hell and it's residents?
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Fire in this case is a metaphysical aspect. Controlling fire of hell means complete control over hell, it's soul, the demons, etc, etc.
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My brother in Christ, this is how it works in the canon. Just read the comic, man. It's there. This is literally from the first issue of the comic.
Also metaphysical was probably slightly wrong word, but idk what else to replace it with ATM
Also metaphysical was probably slightly wrong word, but idk what else to replace it with ATM
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My brother in Christ, this is a CRT. Post evidence and explain it with clear logic.
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As I literally said messages above, RCO doesn't work properly these days. And I posted the pages numbers, rough estimates. Just read it.
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Neither of those scans say "controlling fire means controlling the entirety of hell and it's residents."
He proclaims he will control the fires of hell and it's residents, and it doesn't say one is connected to the other.
So with this evidence in mind, I maintain the assertion that controlling the fires of hell and it's residents does not constitute scaling one's power to the entirety of hell without stronger evidence.
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...........
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Thanks for the scans.
He does say that he will destroy Heaven, but I don't think that statement alone is sufficient evidence. Lots of villains claim they will destroy things and then fail. Likewise Heaven itself has several beings capable of stopping Spectre.
He did control the fires of hell, and the residents of Hell, but without better evidence, that's not sufficient to say he can destroy it. I am leaning towards Eficiente's assessment here:
He does say that he will destroy Heaven, but I don't think that statement alone is sufficient evidence. Lots of villains claim they will destroy things and then fail. Likewise Heaven itself has several beings capable of stopping Spectre.
He did control the fires of hell, and the residents of Hell, but without better evidence, that's not sufficient to say he can destroy it. I am leaning towards Eficiente's assessment here:
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The second scan here blatantly shows the fire is controlling the demons, Spectre plainly says that the demons are following the hellfire after remarking on its qualities.
The heaven destruction statement is also very blatant, Spectre knows it better than almost anyone, he should be very aware of his capabilities to destroy it or not, can't really see it as an empty boast at all.
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To me it sounded more like he was ordering them to. "Devils, it is our time. Follow the fire."
I am not completely opposed to the idea that controlling the fire could in turn control demons, but I interpreted this more as an uprising than Spectre literally taking control of all demons via the fire. I suppose it isn't super important one way or the other, as I don't think either interpretation would speak to scaling to Hell
I'm not saying it's necessarily an empty boast, but I lean against using statements like that as they have been proven wrong in the past.
What's further, he seems to be leading an army of demons.
Spectre: "Damned souls, demons, it is our time. Follow the fire, follow me." "Onward, soldiers! I will have my vengeance."
So I would be inclined to interpret this as him saying he's going to lead all the demons and destroy Earth and Heaven. Similar to when the Lilim invaded the Silver City in Lucifer (2000)
So with that said, my opinion is that this scan alone shouldn't be used to say "The Spectre can destroy the entire realm of Heaven with his power" given the context.
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