Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #361
Do we consider Grant's Supergods canon? If we do there's this scan
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight
- Thread starter Transcending
- Start date
- Status
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #363
Asked
- 18,393
- 14,311
Nice
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #365
bump
- 1,276
- 1,022
Just to give some input on the plot manipulation thing involving Mandrakk since I was asked.
Starting off, from Mandrakks level of existence DC is essentially a story. We can go back to Final Crisis Superman Beyond and The Multiversity and see that within the Overvoid where Mandrakk was, DC is presented as this flaw containing stories and an endless narrative.
Here's the scan from The Multiversity which describes the multiverse as an endless play of matter and narrative.
Scan 1 (Multiversity Guidebook #1)
And here's the scans from Final Crisis which also establish how when Mandrakk first inspected the flaw he discovered that it was essentially a structure containing stories.
Scan 1 (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)
Scan 2 (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)
It is important to note from the second scan that it mentions how the Overvoid became haunted by the mystery of the Thought Robot who infected the Overvoid with narratives causing story to spread like a contagion. Once this legend took root, the Monitors, their history, and the Monitor Sphere were created as an added layer to the Multiverse, with Mandrakk adopting the role as this vampiric, devil like figure who's desire is to destroy existence and the Thought Robot adopting the role as existences savior.
What this means is that basically Nil/The Monitor Sphere and the Monitors were byproducts of the formation of a story with Mandrakk and the Thought Robot adopting biblical like figures/forms within said story. Proving that the concept of story plays an actual foundational role in the formation of existence within the cosmology that beings and structures within the Multiverse are byproducts of. And we know this to be the case through multiple pieces of evidence.
The Monitors themselves are recognized by the Thought Robot as being once faceless and numberless until their essential nature was changed by narratives which formed around them like crystals in solution.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
And Mandrakk was capable of one shotting these beings.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
Another example is the Thought Robot who is also considered to be a literal story that Mandrakk was capable of harming which was displayed all throughout the fight scene in Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
The Multiverse which is treated as containing stories was being drained dry by the Monitors who's true nature is the same as Mandrakks.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
There is also this "self assembling hyperstory" thing that was mentioned when the Thought Robot was fighting Mandrakk. The Thought Robot would describe this hyperstory as something that was "trying it's best to destroy him." Taking into account everything I've mentioned already, I believe that this hyperstory is what formed and governs the Monitor Sphere and the Monitors after the event that happened in the Overvoid. Additionally, I also believe Mandrakk was the one manipulating this story. Which makes sense as the Thought Robot only becomes aware of this hyperstory the moment Mandrakk starts fighting him and Mandrakk is the only one there who wants to destroy him.
So all in all, I think Mandrakk should definitely keep his plot manipulation. There's proof of the concept of story being something foundational in the formation of existence and being within the cosmology and there's proof of Mandrakk manipulating and destroying things that are defined as a story/narrative. And that's not even taking into account all of the author statements from Grant Morrison which imply Mandrakk has plot manipulation.
Starting off, from Mandrakks level of existence DC is essentially a story. We can go back to Final Crisis Superman Beyond and The Multiversity and see that within the Overvoid where Mandrakk was, DC is presented as this flaw containing stories and an endless narrative.
Here's the scan from The Multiversity which describes the multiverse as an endless play of matter and narrative.
Scan 1 (Multiversity Guidebook #1)
And here's the scans from Final Crisis which also establish how when Mandrakk first inspected the flaw he discovered that it was essentially a structure containing stories.
Scan 1 (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)
Scan 2 (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)
It is important to note from the second scan that it mentions how the Overvoid became haunted by the mystery of the Thought Robot who infected the Overvoid with narratives causing story to spread like a contagion. Once this legend took root, the Monitors, their history, and the Monitor Sphere were created as an added layer to the Multiverse, with Mandrakk adopting the role as this vampiric, devil like figure who's desire is to destroy existence and the Thought Robot adopting the role as existences savior.
What this means is that basically Nil/The Monitor Sphere and the Monitors were byproducts of the formation of a story with Mandrakk and the Thought Robot adopting biblical like figures/forms within said story. Proving that the concept of story plays an actual foundational role in the formation of existence within the cosmology that beings and structures within the Multiverse are byproducts of. And we know this to be the case through multiple pieces of evidence.
The Monitors themselves are recognized by the Thought Robot as being once faceless and numberless until their essential nature was changed by narratives which formed around them like crystals in solution.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
And Mandrakk was capable of one shotting these beings.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
Another example is the Thought Robot who is also considered to be a literal story that Mandrakk was capable of harming which was displayed all throughout the fight scene in Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
The Multiverse which is treated as containing stories was being drained dry by the Monitors who's true nature is the same as Mandrakks.
Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
There is also this "self assembling hyperstory" thing that was mentioned when the Thought Robot was fighting Mandrakk. The Thought Robot would describe this hyperstory as something that was "trying it's best to destroy him." Taking into account everything I've mentioned already, I believe that this hyperstory is what formed and governs the Monitor Sphere and the Monitors after the event that happened in the Overvoid. Additionally, I also believe Mandrakk was the one manipulating this story. Which makes sense as the Thought Robot only becomes aware of this hyperstory the moment Mandrakk starts fighting him and Mandrakk is the only one there who wants to destroy him.
So all in all, I think Mandrakk should definitely keep his plot manipulation. There's proof of the concept of story being something foundational in the formation of existence and being within the cosmology and there's proof of Mandrakk manipulating and destroying things that are defined as a story/narrative. And that's not even taking into account all of the author statements from Grant Morrison which imply Mandrakk has plot manipulation.
Last edited:
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #368
Yeah
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #369
Also please remove Wally's while you are at it
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #371
You forgot to update the Keys, it still shows me like this:
Key: The Batman Who Laughs | The Darkest Knight (Before Crisis Energy) | The Darkest Knight (After Crisis Energy)
- 17,500
- 11,892
Thanks, fixed.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #373
I think you should also remove the "After Crisis Energy" part.
- 5,879
- 1,070
ecds
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #375
- 165,252
- 72,300
I do not think that we can use anything unofficial and non-canon, such as Supergods, as a basis for the content of our profile pages.
Anyway, is the plot manipulation issue the only thing that we have left to decide here?
Anyway, is the plot manipulation issue the only thing that we have left to decide here?
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #377
That and we need to edit Wally's profile but if Xearsay's post on the topic is good enough, we can ignore the Plot Manip topic.
- 18,393
- 14,311
After looking at that user response, it seems fine to be applied. He cleared most of stuff.
- 165,252
- 72,300
Are the following edits that Eseseso and I made sufficient for Wally's page, or is anything more needed?
vsbattles.fandom.com
I am not sure about the plot manipulation, but Xearsay seemed to make good points.
What do you think, @Deagonx ?
Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth)
Wally West is The Flash, the fastest man in the multiverse.[1] Formerly the protégé and successor of Barry Allen, he was trapped in the Speed Force for years, with the world forgetting his history until his metaphorical "rebirth." Tier: Varies with speed, up to 2-C, higher with Speed Steal. Low...
vsbattles.fandom.com
I am not sure about the plot manipulation, but Xearsay seemed to make good points.
What do you think, @Deagonx ?
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #380
It still shows me the Low 1-C and Mobius Chair stuff?
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #382
This is what I see
I thought that we removed that. Check again please.This is what I see
- 165,252
- 72,300
I handled it. Is the page acceptable now?
vsbattles.fandom.com
Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth)
Wally West is The Flash, the fastest man in the multiverse.[1] Formerly the protégé and successor of Barry Allen, he was trapped in the Speed Force for years, with the world forgetting his history until his metaphorical "rebirth." Tier: Varies with speed, up to 2-C, higher with Speed Steal. Low...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #385
"Mobius Chair" needs to be removed-I handled it. Is the page acceptable now?
Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth)
Wally West is The Flash, the fastest man in the multiverse.[1] Formerly the protégé and successor of Barry Allen, he was trapped in the Speed Force for years, with the world forgetting his history until his metaphorical "rebirth." Tier: Varies with speed, up to 2-C, higher with Speed Steal. Low...
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #387
Also a doubt, here Perpetua says that she was going to create a story, is this Plot Manip or Healing?
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #389
Okay
- 181
- 278
Plot manipulation. You can't heal a story without having the ability to manipulate it after all.
- 181
- 278
Can you elaborate on your reasoning for it being figurative speech?
- 165,252
- 72,300
She is talking about creating a universe and hiding clues throughout time. That is space-time manipulation, not plot manipulation, and talking about people who have eventful lives as living out their stories is quite commonplace. She also never displayed any control over the narrative itself. If she had that ability, she would just have written "...and then all of my opponents and the settings for their stories permanently disappeared, and I won and lived happily ever after. The end." at some point.
- 18,393
- 14,311
Space-time manipulation by healing a story? What does the story even present? Is the story universe (reality-based)? If so… I doubt that only “space-time” manipulation.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #396
Iirc Doom?
To be clear Perpetua wasn't going to heal a story, she was going to destroy one and create another.
Yes. Crisis Energy represents the 7 fundamental forces of the Multiverse.
- 18,393
- 14,311
My bad. Apologies. It is likewise destroying one and creating a multiverse (story). This is actually plot manipulation if he reviewed it as a story.
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,525
- Thread starter
- #399
Also doesn't the fact BWL could fight without seeing anything(he literally has a steel helmet covering his eyes) count for an ability?
- Status
Similar threads
