DC Comics - Post-Crisis Superman Early Key Proposal

[Qawsedf234]

Doomsday does not have an emotion-based power level.

He says Doomsday is slower and weaker due to agony and when he's saying that hes effortlessly dodging Doomsday and Doomsday shatters his claw punching him.

While Superman did get rid of his mental limits with Mongol, that wouldn't apply to Doomsday. He mentioned explicitly to Lois that he's only overcome his mental limits when fighting one person, which was Doomsday.

DD was also fighting Imperiex Drones with Superman and they were even with each other and when Doomsday lost that weakness he went back to being physically stronger and faster.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not disputing that Doomsday was not able to use his powers as efficiently at that time, but it doesn't make sense that it would affect his durability to the extent of breaking his claws as well.

You are correct about that Doomsday did much better during his preceding fight with the Imperiex drones though, so never mind about that part then.

Superman was still explicitly powered-up after training with Mongul though. Before that he was not able to move planets on his own, for example.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Firestorm808 still makes very good sense here and has lots of explicit logical evidence, and our job is to be as honest and informative as we can manage to our visitors, so I do not think that we should avoid including this information.

 

[Firestorm808]

To clarify, we'll save all the Post-Death Doomsday stuff for a different thread.

Currently working on the Pre-Death stuff.

 

[Firestorm808]

While that does happen, strength of a planet makes no sense. Planet's aren't 5-B because they're strong or explode or whatever. They're 5-B because gravity holds them together and some of them are moving at fast velocity.

As mentioned prior, Superman explicitly states that he couldn't break out of the hold, and we don't scale characters to being held in place unless intentionally being crushed.

 

[Antvasima]

To clarify, we'll save all the Post-Death Doomsday stuff for a different thread.

Currently working on the Pre-Death stuff.

Okay. No problem.

As mentioned prior, Superman explicitly states that he couldn't break out of the hold, and we don't scale characters to being held in place unless intentionally being crushed.

That seems to make sense.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As mentioned prior, Superman explicitly states that he couldn't break out of the hold, and we don't scale characters to being held in place unless intentionally being crushed.

Even then I don't believe it would be a Tier 5 feat. It would just be LS if anything.

Superman was still explicitly powered-up after training with Mongul though.

I do agree, but my point was that by Superman's own admission he broke those limitations when fighting Doomsday

 

[Firestorm808]

Even then I don't believe it would be a Tier 5 feat. It would just be LS if anything.

I agree.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Spoiler: The Life and Death of Superman Chapter 10

"Bellowing in pain, Doomsday lashed out and kneed Superman in the chin. Superman stumbled, and the monster pressed on, delivering a slashing left that laid open Superman’s cheek. The Man of Steel could feel the blood flowing again, but even more he felt the energy surging through him. If he had held back earlier that day, he now reached down into reserves of power that he’d never tapped before."

Superman is said to tap into a greater reserve of power when fighting Doomsday, this was during the death of superman fight. Can be used as supporting evidence for Superman growing stronger as Firestorm said, and someone could add it to Statistics Amplification

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Yeah, everything about it says that last deathblow against Doomsday was the first time Superman went all out with his then current strength, but doesn't negate his Eradicator upgrade, his Mongul training and his post Infinite Crisis upgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Even then I don't believe it would be a Tier 5 feat. It would just be LS if anything.

Agreed.

I do agree, but my point was that by Superman's own admission he broke those limitations when fighting Doomsday

Okay. That seems reliable then.

 

[Firestorm808]

Here's the proposed split of abilities.

• Abilities
  • Pre-Death
    • Limited Electricity Manipulation (Can generate enormous amounts of static electricity),
    • Limited Sound Manipulation (Destroyed an illusion by shouting[1], should be able to replicate Supergirl's sonic scream.),
    • Stellar Radiation Absorption and Empowerment
    • Acrobatics (There have been times when Superman has lost his powers and had render to rely on his own nimbleness, agility, balance, and body coordination to help him get by and survive[2])
    • Afterimage Creation
    • Aura (Generates a constant aura around himself to protect his clothes and avoid grime[2]),
    • Super Breath
    • Enhanced Senses (Super Vision, Hearing, Smell, Touch and Taste.[3] He can focus up to a sub-atomic[4] and molecular level or widen to a planetary scale. Can hears across the planet and can identify heartbeats[5])
    • Flight
    • Genius Intelligence (Capable with alien technology)
    • Ice Breath,
    • Information Analysis (Can quickly analyze molecular and genetic information[6], electromagnetic makeups[7]. Able to make quick calculations of his[8] opponent[9] and the[10] environment)
    • Statistics Amplification and Statistics Reduction by himself (Superman can mentally control his power levels. According to Darkseid, in order for Superman's powers to work properly, he needs his full active brain[11]),
    • Weapon Mastery (Proficient with guns[12])
    • Limited Power Nullification (He can cut off external sources of power using heat vision),
    • Martial Arts (Superman is a master combatant. Excelled in wrestling[13] and trained with Granny Goodness,[14])
    • Non-Physical Interaction (His heat vision can hit intangible beings[15] and counter molecular phasing)
    • Statistics Amplification (Can temporarily increase his powers by immersing himself within a yellow star. Under a blue sun his powers are boosted and he gains the ability to imbue others with his powers)
    • Superhuman Physical Characteristics
  • Post-Death
    • All prior abilities.
    • Limited Air Manipulation (Can generate and cancel tornadoes; Can draw air out of an area by creating updrafts),
    • Limited Electricity Manipulation (Can generate enormous amounts of static electricity),
    • Limited Intangibility and Invisibility (Can become intangible[16] and turn invisible via vibrating),
    • Limited Light Manipulation (Can can control the luminosity of his heat vision[17])
    • Limited Light Manipulation (Can can control the lumonisity of his heat vision[18])
    • Limited Space-Time Manipulation (Capable of opening and closing holes in the fabric of spacetime via static electricity and Heat Vision.),
    • Limited Vibration Manipulation (Can thunderclap[19]),
    • Minor Power Mimicry (Learned stealth just by observing Batman do it[20]),
    • Absorption of Electromagnetic Energy (Getting shocked recharged his strength), and other types of Energy,
    • Accelerated Development (Learned Torquasm Vo in mere moments, achieving a state where he nearly defended against the attacks of Dominus[21]),
    • Acrobatics (Can leap tall buildings[22] and a capable acrobat[23])
    • Afterimage Creation (As shown[24] here[25]).
    • Astral Projection (Via Torquasm-Vo,[26] Matched the Eradicator[23]),
    • BFR (Utilized counter-vibrations to send a Phantom Planet outside the universe[27]),
    • BFR (Utilized counter-vibrations to send a Phantom Planet outside the universe[28]),
    • Body Control (Can control his brainwaves to enter a state of hyper-calm[21]. Can control autonomous body functions, allowing him to fool sensors),
    • Extrasensory Perception (Can see the aura of every living creature.[29] By Torquasm-Rao and Torquasm-Vu, he can detect and view the psychic energy of other[30]),
    • Hacking (Reprogrammed a Superman Robot[21]),
    • Heat Manipulation, Limited Radiation Manipulation and Limited Matter Manipulation via Heat Vision (His heat vision can match absolute zero[31], emit precise doses of microwaves to kill organic Nano-Machines[32], replace the heat of the sun[33], and agitate molecules to cause structures to shatter[34]),
    • Illusion Creation (Torquasm Vo can create illusions to provide a distraction),
    • Illusion Creation (Torquasm Vo can create illusions to provide a distraction),
    • Information Analysis (Superman's senses allow him to search and analyze huge stretches of land[35])
    • Instinctive Reaction (As explained here. Due to how often he holds back and how powerful he is, he instinctively reduces his attack power to not accidently kill anyone[36])
    • Longevity (Lived for 1000 years in Valhalla[37])
    • Martial Arts (Superman is a master combatant. In his youth, he was trained by his father[38] and as an adult, he trained with some of the universes greatest fighters[39] such as, including Wonder Woman,[40][41] Wally West,[42] Dick Grayson,[43] Batman[38][43], Muhammad Ali,[44][45] and Mongul.[36][46] Occasionally trains when under a Red Sun to make sure he can hold his own when weakened.[47] Has over 1000 years of raw experience thanks to his years in Valhalla.[37] With his teachings, Superman has matched and defeated highly skilled fighters such as Commander Gor, a high-ranking member of Zod's military[39], Kobra, a master of all martial arts[48], Mongul[49], Mongal[50] Conduit, a skilled wrestler[51], Asmodeus[52], Parasite[45], Sakki[53], and Lex Luthor[54]. Capable of fending off groups of enemies while depowered[20][47]),
    • Pressure Points (Has shown to be skilled at precision-hitting techniques, hurting foes with finger pokes to specific areas or knocking them out with strikes to the neck[20][39][55]),
    • Purification (Type 3; Can utilise the life-force of the universe to cleanse and purify the form and spirit when using Torquasm-Rao and Torquasm-Vo),
    • Regeneration (Mid-Low for combat applications, High-Low over time. Low-Mid. (Could fight after both getting his blood turned into Kryptonite, and being impaled by a Kryptonite sword, with the wound quickly healing after the sword's removal))
    • Self-Sustenance (Types 1 and 2 when sun dipped. Type 3[31]),
    • Statistics Amplification (Can temporarily increase his powers by immersing himself within a yellow star. Under a blue sun his powers are boosted and he gains the ability to imbue others with his powers),
    • Stealth Mastery (Even when depowered, could sneak up and knock out guards without being noticed[20]),
    • Weapon Mastery (Was trained in the usage of Batarangs by Batman.[43] Skilled in the usage of swords[56], shields[57], capable of matching Captain Freelance[58] one of the most feared space pirates in the universe),
• Resistance to
  • Pre-Death
    • Energy Manipulation,
    • Ice Manipulation,
    • Fire Manipulation (Withstood Apokolips' fire),
    • Empathic Manipulation (Has nearly infinite willpower),
    • Magma Manipulation (Was unaffected by Lady Blaze's magma),
    • Remove, unless we have scans he explicitly resisted the erasure effect not generic blasts. | Existence Erasure (Can withstand Darkseid's Omega Beams),
    • Pain Manipulation (Resisted Kalibak's Nerve Beam, which activates all its target's pain receptors).
    • Electricity Manipulation (Unaffected by high levels of electricity),
    • Acid Manipulation (Inhaled acid gas to protect others, and was unaffected by having liquid acid dumped on him),
    • Telekinesis (Forced his way through telekinesis),
  • Post-Death
    • All prior resistances.
    • Reality Warping (Resisted Mister Mxyzptlk's realm without physics, gravity, reality as well as fractured space-time. Mxyzptlk also attempted to erase Superman from all of reality and memory[59]),
    • Soul Manipulation,
    • Mind Manipulation (Through Torquasm-Vo, a Kryptonian mental technique, Superman can access his own inner consciousness and astral plane to build up psychic blocks and fight off telepathic attacks),
    • Illusions,
    • Power Absorption (Resisted the Hollow Men from taking away his powers and energy),
    • Transmutation (resisted several magical attempts of being transmuted into salt),
    • Fear Manipulation (resisted a crystal that brings out the primal fear within someone),
    • Radiation Manipulation (Regularly absorbs nuclear energy and higher-than-usual amounts of red solar energy, all of which contain high levels of radioactivity),
    • Matter Manipulation (Survived sub-atomic destruction),
    • Time Slow (Countered a temporal modulation field slowing him down),
    • Time Stop (Broke out of full chrono-suspension),
    • Possession (Neron couldn't possess him),
    • Death Manipulation (Overcame death inducement and prevented his heart from being stopped),
    • Deconstruction (Was unaffected by a disintegration beam),
    • Gravity Manipulation and Black Holes (Contained a mini-black hole that would eventually destroy the entire solar system.[60]),
    • Corruption and Biological Manipulation (Overcame Skyhook's corrupting power),
    • Limited resistance to Paralysis Inducement (With enough sunlight, Superman resisted paralysis beams)

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine to me at least.

 

[Firestorm808]

Alright, I think we have everything settled for the pre death key.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll have the draft profile prepared.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Firestorm808]

Here's the profile draft so far.

DC Comics - Superman (Post-Crisis) Profile Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Here's the profile draft so far.

DC Comics - Superman (Post-Crisis) Profile Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

This looks good, but you're double posting a few things. Light manip is double posted, BFR is double posted, Illusion is double posted

 

[Firestorm808]

Ah, thanks. Should be good now.

 

[KLOL506]

Some of the feats... IDK.

The Kepler Supernova feat is obviously not 4-B by any means whatsoever. Superman only tanked the initial neutrino burst of the supernova, which carries only 1% of the overal power of said explosion, (1e+44 times 50 is 5e+45 J, 1% that is 5.e+43 J, or High 4-C).

As for the Country level explosion, I don't think we've still managed to determine a proper formula for outer space explosions, but we can't use our airburst formula or ground-based formula in outer space because there's no air to speak of in outer space to begin with, thus, nothing to exert pressure on from the explosion.

Also I think we should just remove the Apokolips and Genesis feat as it was rejected on grounds of being part of a story of dubious canonicity.

 

[Firestorm808]

As for the Country level explosion, I don't think we've still managed to determine a proper formula for outer space explosions, but we can't use our airburst formula or ground-based formula in outer space because there's no air to speak of in outer space to begin with, thus, nothing to exert pressure on from the explosion.

In any case, we still have other Tier 6 feats for use.

 

[Firestorm808]

Some of the feats... IDK.

The Kepler Supernova feat is obviously not 4-B by any means whatsoever. Superman only tanked the initial neutrino burst of the supernova, which carries only 1% of the overal power of said explosion, (1e+44 times 50 is 5e+45 J, 1% that is 5.e+43 J, or High 4-C).

Also I think we should just remove the Apokolips and Genesis feat as it was rejected on grounds of being part of a story of dubious canonicity.

I'm fine with changing the Neutrino feat.

IIRC, the Apokolips and NG feat was scaled to planet level when normal size.

 

[Firestorm808]

@KLOL506

Your thoughts on the Earth Drilling feat?

DC Comics - Kryptonians Drill to the Earth's Core

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[KLOL506]

I'm fine with changing the Neutrino feat.

IIRC, the Apokolips and NG feat was scaled to planet level when normal size.

No, it was rejected completely, downscaling Supes to his normal size got us Low 4-C as per Spino's calc, but even that was put into contention despite having confirmed statements that Apokolips and New Genesis are at the very least bigger than the largest stars in the universe.

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506

Your thoughts on the Earth Drilling feat?

DC Comics - Kryptonians Drill to the Earth's Core

vsbattles.fandom.com

Depends on the timeframe they took to drill through all that.

Also, the mantle and outer core are liquid. You can't frag a liquid.

 

[Stefano4444]

DC Comics - Superman (Post-Crisis) Profile Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

Didn't Post-Crisis Superman had Heat Vision as one of his default abilities? Why It isn't listed in his Post-COIE Key?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Here's the profile draft so far.

DC Comics - Superman (Post-Crisis) Profile Draft

vsbattles.fandom.com

Better to use a render for that first pic.

Also like, there aren't any visual or design differences between the two pictures, so using two is pointless? I'd rather just stick the current pic.

 

[Firestorm808]

Better to use a render for that first pic.

Also like, there aren't any visual or design differences between the two pictures, so using two is pointless? I'd rather just stick the current pic.

Reasonable.

 

[Firestorm808]

Didn't Post-Crisis Superman had Heat Vision as one of his default abilities? Why It isn't listed in his Post-COIE Key?

Corrected.

 

[Firestorm808]

Depends on the timeframe they took to drill through all that.

Also, the mantle and outer core are liquid. You can't frag a liquid.

Copy. Will look into that part.

I assume it also applies to this calc?

DC Comics - Starbreaker Penetrates a Planet

vsbattles.fandom.com

We also have:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/DC_Comics_-_Superman_Survives_a_Nuke | City level | 7-B | Limit

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/DC_Comics_-_Superman_Tanks_City_Explosion | Mountain level | 7-A | Limit. Left him too weak to fly

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/DC_Comics_-_Superman_Causes_a_Quake | City level | 7-B | Moderate to High effort, Enraged

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/DC_Comics_-_Superman_and_Doomsday's_Deathblows | Small Country level | Low 6-B | Limit

Might need to adjust to Tier 7, possibly Tier 6.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Boomtubes amp you to the size of a new god's "true form", which is Low 1-C. AP/Durability feats for Supes on Apokolips can't be used

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that Superman would get the proportionate power of his regular self after using a Boom Tube, and I obviously don't mind a High 4-C or 4-B feat in itself. The problem is just that it happened in "Death of the New Gods", in which Jim Starlin as usual didn't give a crap about if he severely contradicted other continuity, such as the nature of The Source, or other storylines such as Final Crisis. In addition, wouldn't Superman just have tanked a small part of such a collission, given that he was so much smaller than the two giga-planets?

Superman would still likely scale to 4-B from Alan Scott though.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Wait, I thought Neutrino Bursts were 99% of the Supernova's explosion, not 1%

Context "An enormous amount of a supernova’s energy, a whopping 99 percent, is carried away by a burst of neutrinos (of all flavors) in a span of about 10 seconds"

"They carry away about 99% of the gravitational energy of the dying star as a burst lasting tens of seconds."

" When giant stars die in impressive supernova blasts, about 99% of the energy released goes into producing a flood of neutrinos." and "Indeed, less than 1% of the total energy of a supernova explosion goes into light. And given the fact that a single supernova can outshine entire galaxies, it’s amazing to contemplate the sheer number of neutrinos produced with the other 99% of the available energy."

 

[KLOL506]

Wait, I thought Neutrino Bursts were 99% of the Supernova's explosion, not 1%

Context "An enormous amount of a supernova’s energy, a whopping 99 percent, is carried away by a burst of neutrinos (of all flavors) in a span of about 10 seconds"

"They carry away about 99% of the gravitational energy of the dying star as a burst lasting tens of seconds."

" When giant stars die in impressive supernova blasts, about 99% of the energy released goes into producing a flood of neutrinos." and "Indeed, less than 1% of the total energy of a supernova explosion goes into light. And given the fact that a single supernova can outshine entire galaxies, it’s amazing to contemplate the sheer number of neutrinos produced with the other 99% of the available energy."

Wait, I misunderstood this from Day 1?

Or is it the electromagnetic shockwave that has 1% the power?

EDIT: Actually no wait, the term "neutrino burst" is not mentioned at all in the feat's scans.

 

[KLOL506]

Copy. Will look into that part.

I assume it also applies to this calc?

DC Comics - Starbreaker Penetrates a Planet

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yes.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, I think that Superman would get the proportionate power of his regular self after using a Boom Tube, and I obviously don't mind a High 4-C or 4-B feat in itself. The problem is just that it happened in "Death of the New Gods", in which Jim Starlin as usual didn't give a crap about if he severely contradicted other continuity, such as the nature of The Source, or other storylines such as Final Crisis. In addition, wouldn't Superman just have tanked a small part of such a collission, given that he was so much smaller than the two giga-planets?

Apparently the Boom Tube enlarges Superman to Low 1-C size so uh... good luck with that.

Superman would still likely scale to 4-B from Alan Scott though.

Yeah, I saw this, until I realized that I might have confused "electromagnetic shockwave" with "initial neutrino burst", and I might have as well confused the 1% with 99% (Turns out, the neutrino burst itself is actually 99% the power of a supernova, not 1% as I believed).

 

[KLOL506]

Though I do have a question. How do we deal with Superman being threatened to be incinerated by that expanding ball of radiation?

I also remember Amelia saying that this entire story was made up by Jonathan, is that true @Firestorm808 ?

 

[Antvasima]

What feat(s) do you refer to when you say "made up"?

 

[KLOL506]

What feat(s) do you refer to when you say "made up"?

The "50 times the size of Kepler Supernova" feat.