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DC Comics - Post-Crisis Superman Early Key Proposal

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"laid waste" can mean a whole lot of things. The scans don`t show what happened to the planet so it can`t be calced
 
Doesn't Superman no longer scale to the IMP's 4-B feat? Or does he scale to other 4-B characters who scale in full to the IMP?
 
 
Armorchompy said:
If it's difficult to determine you can just do what I did with Hawkman characters for Post-Flashpoint and do "At least TIER, possibly/at peak TIER"
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Would the At peak Tier for Pre-Death be compatible with the staff notes regarding the intentional depowering of Superman for Post-Crisis?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Would the At peak Tier for Pre-Death be compatible with the staff notes regarding the intentional depowering of Superman for Post-Crisis?
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Can you re link the staff notes for him being below planetary? And explain why that writer speaks for the entirety of DC comics?
 
KLOL506 said:
Doesn't Superman no longer scale to the IMP's 4-B feat? Or does he scale to other 4-B characters who scale in full to the IMP?
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Why did we ditch Supes downscaling from it?

AFAIK, the Alan Scott 4-B feat is the most we have rn.
 
On the topic of the editor's note, 4-B at peak doesn't contradict being weaker than Pre-Crisis at all. Pre Crisis Superman is a 2-C to 2-A character here, that nerf would still be massive. As well as that, being a "Planet Juggler" is in reference to lifting strength, and juggling planets implies a level of ease for performing the feat.
 
Firestorm808 said:
The 4-B force RMP wasn't used on Zum.
Click to expand...


Also, I found some inconsistencies in the Starbreaker nova feat. Its possible to have large island level destructive capacity and large planet/star level attack potency, so him only producing large island level of damage isn't a limit to his AP. Destructive force of a nova could mean just AP of it, especially since that power is concentrated in a small area

If you believe that his large island feat is a limit to his AP, you must also accept that Superman is only large island level
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Also, I found some inconsistencies in the Starbreaker nova feat. Its possible to have large island level destructive capacity and large planet/star level attack potency, so him only producing large island level of damage isn't a limit to his AP. Destructive force of a nova could mean just AP of it, especially since that power is concentrated in a small area
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It isn't Real-Life Nova AP
  • Justice League America Vol 1 #64, July 1992
    • At the time of the attack on Superman, it's more than likely hyperbole.
    • Starbreaker's MO is that he moves a planet into the gravitational pull of the nearest sun, and he absorbs the energy from that exploding planet.
    • Even after his attack on Superman, he still needs to absorb energy from the whole league in order to do his plan.
    • At the moment, he has not reached his goal of living up to the name 'Starbreaker.'
    • "By attacking this planet from three different corresponding points of structural weakness, I will set off a chain of events that will culminate in the most explosive climax of energy released anywhere!"
      • So the 'Nova' energy used against Superman < Energy of a planet exploding.
 
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XXKINGXX69 said:
If you believe that his large island feat is a limit to his AP, you must also accept that Superman is only large island level
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From the current list of Superman's Pre-Death Calculations, Tier 6 limit seems to be consistent.
 
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Ehnkr2beboh said:
On the topic of the editor's note, 4-B at peak doesn't contradict being weaker than Pre-Crisis at all. Pre Crisis Superman is a 2-C to 2-A character here, that nerf would still be massive. As well as that, being a "Planet Juggler" is in reference to lifting strength, and juggling planets implies a level of ease for performing the feat.
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I don't think the writers ever made a distinction in Lifting Strength and Attack Potency for general power. It's pretty straightforward.

Moving the Earth, the length of 5 of its diameter in a second is 1.21E+40 Joules / High 5-A.
10 lengths at 4.8481747123552E+40 Joules / Low 4-C.

They don't intend to have Superman be at the above levels at the time.
 
I'm gonna be busy for the next few hours, so this will be my last response for a while.

The writers don't need to make a distinction between LS and AP, we do that already. It would also solve the contradiction you gave by giving a possibility where they can coexist, so under the law of non-contradiction, this would be a logical way to go about it imo. For you to claim they're correlated, the Burden of Proof would be on you.

Plus, as I mentioned before, the juggling aspect implies that it's very casual, so he could still possibly have Planetary LS, just it wouldn't be casual.

Anyways, when I come home tonight, I'll try to send some more feats for Pre Death Supes.
 
Firestorm808 said:
I don't think the writers ever made a distinction in Lifting Strength and Attack Potency for general power. It's pretty straightforward.

Moving the Earth, the length of 5 of its diameter in a second is 1.21E+40 Joules / High 5-A.
10 lengths at 4.8481747123552E+40 Joules / Low 4-C.

They don't intend to have Superman be at the above levels at the time.
Click to expand...
You can have planetary punches without planetary lifting
 
I heard from several sources that there may be a potential cosmic upgrade for DC heralds later. If that is true, would they affect these revisisons?
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
I heard from several sources that there may be a potential cosmic upgrade for DC heralds later. If that is true, would they affect these revisisons?
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I am not familiar with such a herald revision. I don't see how that would affect Pre-Death stuff.
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
You can have planetary punches without planetary lifting
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The entire point of the staff statement is to address general power concerns. I don't think they would mislead their readers with a Lifting Strength VS AP technicality.
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
I heard from several sources that there may be a potential cosmic upgrade for DC heralds later. If that is true, would they affect these revisisons?
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Not really? But basically, 4-B is definitely gonna go bye bye at some point, whether or not this will result in a downgrade or upgrade. But back the main topic
 
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Alright, I got the time to make a full response. Thanks for your patience.
Firestorm808 said:
The entire point of the staff statement is to address general power concerns. I don't think they would mislead their readers with a Lifting Strength VS AP technicality.
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I don't get how it would be misleading though. Like, yeah I think the statement about him being depowered is in reference to both AP and Lifting Strength, and the example is probably is supposed to mean that too, but I don't know why that means him not having Planetary LS = not having Planetary AP? Like, he can be vastly nerfed in both aspects but not to the same extent.
Armorchompy said:
Moving planets is AP lol
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My bad, I should've clarified what I meant. I know it counts as an AP feat, but my point is we don't limit someone's AP off of a lifting strength feat, and plenty of characters have higher AP than LS.

Now, on the topic of back-scaling, it seems like it's agreed that the League members didn't get stronger, but the point of contention is their portrayed power was lower. However, even in comics made in the 2000s, Pre-Death Superman is still treated as scaling to or above other League members. At this point, many of their feats had been established, and since they're not considered to actually get stronger, this would be a feat of Pre-Death Kal scaling to Leaguers even with their modern portrayal.


Lastly, with the Darkseid stuff.
  • For "The Power Within", as I mentioned before, Superman is very clearly stated to be fatigued. However, Firestorm has brought up a different argument, saying that this would still scale Darkseid over Superman, since he's more powerful than the machine that weakened Superman. I have two contentions with this. First of all, the machine can weaken Superman without scaling above him, as Superman still endures it (while battle damaged previously), just with injury. Secondly, nothing states Darkseid to be more powerful than his machine. Darkseid has had machines capable of cracking the Source before (New Gods #1), so it's very possible his machine is at least equal to him, or at the very least, nothing necessitates Darkseid being more powerful than it.
  • For the Byrne story, Darkseid only brings up his Omega Effect weakening after he strikes Superman with it, and the color of the Omega Beams doesn't really matter, since they're shown as white again when Superman hits him. Darkseid considers this a legitimate win as well, and as I brought up before, the same Doomsday that Superman stalemated was likely his strongest opponent yet.
 
I think that Firestorm808 makes sense above. Thank you to him and Maddie for helping out.
 
I'm not very convinced on early Superman being 6-B and not 4-B though, sorry. I don't believe a list of anti-feats has been provided and without those I don't see reason to ignore the scaling to characters who scale to what is currently 4-B.
 
Armorchompy said:
I'm not very convinced on early Superman being 6-B and not 4-B though, sorry. I don't believe a list of anti-feats has been provided and without those I don't see reason to ignore the scaling to characters who scale to what is currently 4-B.
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The OP had been revised with labels regarding the feats that are Pre-Death SM's limits. I can repost them on their own if you like.
 
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