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DC Comics - Post-Crisis Superman Early Key Proposal

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LordTracer said:
Last thing I’m gonna note before I leave this thread is that we have an accepted 5-C calc for Superman and some Green Lanterns that took place in 1987, that same calc has an accepted High 5-A calc for John Stewart from 1988, both of which happened before The Death of Superman, so the notion that there’s not even Tier 5 stuff for Superman at that point is incorrect.
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Completely agree with this. Even if we don't go with up to tier 4, I think up to tier 5 would be a minimum, both we these calcs and statements like Orion being able to shatter worlds.
 
LordTracer said:
Last thing I’m gonna note before I leave this thread is that we have an accepted 5-C calc for Superman and some Green Lanterns that took place in 1987, that same calc has an accepted High 5-A calc for John Stewart from 1988, both of which happened before The Death of Superman, so the notion that there’s not even Tier 5 stuff for Superman at that point is incorrect.
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You are aware that this when Superman channeled his willpower through their Lantern Rings to give them a boost, right? It shouldn't scale to Superman's physicals.

Also, why is the Xanashi calc using the point of contact as the center of the supernova instead of the center of the star since it states that it was just the contact that caused a chain reaction that tore the star asunder.
 
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Firestorm808 said:
Also, why is the Xanashi calc using the point of contact as the center of the supernova instead of the center of the star since it states that it was just the contact that caused a chain reaction that tore the star asunder.
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I didn’t make the calc, why are you asking me
 
In any case, my point about Superman's varying power in this era not going past Tier 5 still stands.
 
Firestorm808 said:
In any case, my point about Superman's varying power in this era not going past Tier 5 still stands.
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Hence why I brought up Tier 5 feats instead of Tier 4. DC’s Tier 4 stuff is extremely iffy anyway.
 
I believe other Green Lanterns have Tier 5 stuff from that era as well.
 
Firestorm808 said:
I mean that Superman doesn't have Tier 5 feats for this era.
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Except I just brought up Tier 5 stuff from people that Superman scales to, and @Ehnkr2beboh mentioned that Orion (who Superman scales to) has planet busting statements, something you acknowledged in the OP. So…
 
If one comic series is consistently Tier 4 with another consistently Tier 7/6, how is that cherry picking?
 
LordTracer said:
Except I just brought up Tier 5 stuff from people that Superman scales to, and @Ehnkr2beboh mentioned that Orion (who Superman scales to) has planet busting statements, something you acknowledged in the OP. So…
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You didn't explain why Superman scales to what you provided.

My OP means that Orion scales above Superman since it would be easy to kill him.
 
Yeah, that's GL is a different series from SM.

What reason do we have to scale between the two reliably in this era?
 
Firestorm808 said:
What reason do we have to scale between the two reliably in this era?
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Superman scales to Doomsday. Doomsday no-sold a full power blast from Guy Gardner and several other Justice Leaguers in 1992 as I’ve mentioned earlier. Guy Gardner matched John Stewart in combat and broke through his barriers during Green Lantern Vol. 2 #197 (1986), and John Stewart’s barriers have the aforementioned High 5-A feat from 1987.
 
Again, I refer to my previous post.

Firestorm808 said:
Due to the nature of the Death of Superman storyline, it is more accurate to scale Doomsday at this time to Superman than the side characters. In turn, Superman of this era has consistent Tier 6 limits.

Let's say we have a story called Death of Batman who has consistent Tier 8 limits in his stories.

Now we have a new villain who appears. A side character in this story is taken down.

Said side character is consistently Tier 7 in his own stories.

The new villain then proceeds to fight evenly matched with Batman for several issues.

Is it accurate to scale the new villain and Batman to the Tier 7 character?
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Superman is heavily injured by a 40 MT Nuke | Limit

Superman is heavily injured by a City level Explosion | 7-A | Limit

An angry Superman Causes a Tier 6-C Quake | High effort

Cyborg Superman and Eradicator, both stronger than Superman at this time survive and barely survive a High 6-A explosion respectively | Limit

Superman and Doomsday's Deathblows | Low 6-B | Limit
 
I agree with Firestorm. DC Comics clearly and explicitly continuously tried their best to consistently portray the Superman of the early Post-Crisis era as tier 6 only.

However, they seemed to eventually realise that this did not logically work in a bigger context relative to other characters in this verse, especially as Superman is not supposed to be a massive underdog, and upgraded him to a similar level as Green Lanterns.
 
Yeah, Green Lanterns have always had their variable tiers that often resulted in much higher results from up to planetary for sure and some later much grander cases stellar levels. But they also always tend to have potential to be far above the JLA piers; especially in the earlier comics. But anyway, the fact that Superman can also basically become a lot stronger when using a lantern kind of shows how initially powerless he was compared to the potential power of the Lantern Rings.

I agree with Firestorm that it would not scale to how strong Superman was back then.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Again, I refer to my previous post.


Superman is heavily injured by a 40 MT Nuke | Limit

Superman is heavily injured by a City level Explosion | 7-A | Limit

An angry Superman Causes a Tier 6-C Quake | High effort

Cyborg Superman and Eradicator, both stronger than Superman at this time survive and barely survive a High 6-A explosion respectively | Limit

Superman and Doomsday's Deathblows | Low 6-B | Limit
Click to expand...
Maybe the Superman from death of Superman is just stronger than in the previous comics? Especially since he was using a greater reserve of energy during that fight, as mentioned in Chapter 10 of The Life and Death of Superman


The tier 6-C quake isn't a limit for his AP

The deathblows of Doomsday and Superman has 0 reason to be a limit especially since they were near death at the time

The Eradicator and Cyborg Superman anti-feat could just be a bomb with high 6-A destructive capacity and tier 5 AP


Let's say we have a story called Death of Batman who has consistent Tier 8 limits in his stories. Now we have a new villain who appears. A side character in this story is taken down. Said side character is consistantly Tier 7 in his own stories. The new villain then proceeds to fight evenly matched with Batman for several issues. Is it accurate to scale the new villain and Batman to the Tier 7 character?
Click to expand...

Yes
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, Green Lanterns have always had their variable tiers that often resulted in much higher results from up to planetary for sure and some later much grander cases stellar levels. But they also always tend to have potential to be far above the JLA piers; especially in the earlier comics. But anyway, the fact that Superman can also basically become a lot stronger when using a lantern kind of shows how initially powerless he was compared to the potential power of the Lantern Rings.

I agree with Firestorm that it would not scale to how strong Superman was back then.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the evaluation.

I suppose that Firestorm's draft can probably be applied now then.
 
No problem. 🙏
 
Honestly this whole "No cross-scaling between different character comic runs" debacle I just don't like at all, not even a bit. This is by far one of the most excessive forms of cherrypicking I have seen. Like Armor said, this'll just lead to even more inconsistent scaling down the line.

Just look for context, see if they have valid reasons to scale to each other, then scale them off of that. Frequency of feats alone isn't enough to accept or deny a feat. Context is king. ALWAYS.
 
Armorchompy said:
If Superman blatantly scales above tier 5 people, then his ratings should reflect that. One can't just ignore consistent scaling, it will just cause inconsistencies across the verse. I agree with Tracer here.
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100% agreed.
 
Armorchompy said:
If Superman blatantly scales above tier 5 people, then his ratings should reflect that. One can't just ignore consistent scaling, it will just cause inconsistencies across the verse. I agree with Tracer here.
Click to expand...
So you agree that we should stand by the consistent Tier 6 limits that Superman has shown?
 
KLOL506 said:
Honestly this whole "No cross-scaling between different character comic runs" debacle I just don't like at all, not even a bit. This is by far one of the most excessive forms of cherrypicking I have seen. Like Armor said, this'll just lead to even more inconsistent scaling down the line.

Just look for context, see if they have valid reasons to scale to each other, then scale them off of that. Frequency of feats alone isn't enough to accept or deny a feat. Context is king. ALWAYS.
Click to expand...
How is it cherry picking if the constancy between characters are clearly different?
 
Firestorm808 said:
So you agree that we should stand by the consistent Tier 6 limits that Superman has shown?
Click to expand...
I don't know how you get that from my post but no that is the opposite of what I expressed.
 
Firestorm808 said:
What consistency are you proposing to follow for this case?
Click to expand...
The greater verse's consistency, unless you want to argue literally every tier 5 should be tier 6, which you are free to do, then someone who has scaling to tier 5s should be tier 5 in return. Not doing this will just lead to a huge amount of scaling issues down the line.

Also, Superman's a Kryptonian. Going with the assumption that not every single Kryptonian villain or supporting character goes under a similar amp to the one you're suggesting brings Superman all the way from 6-B to 50/4-B, but still fights against his newer, 5-A/4-B self, then that would scale back to his previous self.
 
Firestorm808 said:
How is it cherry picking if the constancy between characters are clearly different?
Click to expand...
Constancy doesn't mean jackshit here, we're talking about the grander scheme of things like Armor just said. Bear in mind that Supes isn't the only one affected here, everyone else is. Separating characters based on what storyline they're expected to appear in and discarding any legitimate crossovers here will simply lead to a mess of a scaling chain where it'd be even more inconsistent than what we have for Marvel people.
 
Armorchompy said:
The greater verse's consistency, unless you want to argue literally every tier 5 should be tier 6, which you are free to do, then someone who has scaling to tier 5s should be tier 5 in return. Not doing this will just lead to a huge amount of scaling issues down the line.

Also, Superman's a Kryptonian. Going with the assumption that not every single Kryptonian villain or supporting character goes under a similar amp to the one you're suggesting brings Superman all the way from 6-B to 50/4-B, but still fights against his newer, 5-A/4-B self, then that would scale back to his previous self.
Click to expand...
As mentioned prior, this key is standalone. Like Golden Age SM, we aren't having his early age keys applied to others without just cause.

We can't just ignore this era of Superman's history and just lump it under the umbrella of his later years.
 
KLOL506 said:
Constancy doesn't mean jackshit here, we're talking about the grander scheme of things like Armor just said. Bear in mind that Supes isn't the only one affected here, everyone else is. Separating characters based on what storyline they're expected to appear in and discarding any legitimate crossovers here will simply lead to a mess of a scaling chain where it'd be even more inconsistent than what we have for Marvel people.
Click to expand...
Per my previous reply, this key is standalone and won't influence other profiles like Golden Age Supes.

Also, consistency is everything. It's part of the site rules. Why use something if it's not consistent?
 
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