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Hello in today’s content revision I think we should look over Lucifer Morningstar and why he deserves High 1-A.

Here is one on Yahweh and why he deserves it.
Yahweh

This is the basis of how DC Vertigo is structured, remember Vertigo is written differently from the rest of DC.


Vertigo down to everything starting from the Void. This Void is paradoxical because it is the mind and body of the Creator and it cannot never be full filled as it is always waxing and waning with Creations.
The Void

This Void is split into many part’s and since the Void is separated by distance and not Time every Creation exists simultaneously. Lucifer can view all these Creation at the heart of it all. This is while having already given up his powers.
Lucifer scales past every Creation

Each Creation has a Creator and Dream of the Endless who again is an Omniversal entity and knows of Lucifer credits him only behind his Creator to be the most powerful being in the Universe.
Lucifer is the 2nd most powerful entity in the Omniverse

This speaks volumes since Destiny himself has referred to Lucifer as being way beyond him in power. This speaks volumes since everyone that was, is, and will be all are under his book. Noting Lucifer could probably destroy him.
Lucifer>Destiny


Each Creation depending on the Creator has build a Totality that has infinite amount of Universes that are endlessly built upon a greater structure.
Infinite Structural Hierarchy

These Creation are built upon or at least repeat that of Bohm’s Impilcate Order theories and these structure’s are surfaced to be infinitely larger than lower levels lil that of lower cardinals to larger Cardinals axiom.
David Bohm’s Implicate Order Theory

This speaks volumes since Yahweh can make Totalities on a whim and despite that credits Michael and Lucifer for being the best he made.
I have made well. And I made the best when I made you
Best of Yahweh Creation

This speaks to the greater grandeur of Yahweh since we know he has made countless amounts of Creations in the Mansions. With afromention, With infinite amounts of rejected Creations.
Infinite Rejected Creations

This Mansion exists beyond even the Silver City and its structure is so larger that it engulfs all of them. To them, they perceive the mirrors as mountains and this is because of their limited perspective. Each mirror is always reflecting and contains the Creation that Yahweh did not like. All this is contained within the Mansion.
Mansion beyond the Silver City

Sizes of Mirrors

This is quite funny because Yahweh uses the analogy “Infinity answer Infinity” referring back to Lucifer and Michael being Infinite Power and Will in places where Infinity doesn’t reach. In this manner, Lucifer's Infinite Will shatters and breaks the entire mansion. Since the Mansion pulls on your mind, Lucifer being Will itself shatters it just based on Willpower alone.

Infinity answers Infinity. Like mirrors facing each other across a narrow hallway.
Infinite Beings

Lucifer destroying the Mansions

Lucifer presence of Will greater than the Mansion

This is quite funny because there is no evidence to refute these Creations were less than. The reason why people regard this notion is based on two principles,

1. Mansions of Silence are fragile.
The Mansion are not fragile, they are ever only fragile when in the presence of Lucifer. Mazikeen highlights specifically that Lucifer presence cannot be sustain because they were to fragile, this only refers to Lucifer since the Mansion could hold the rest of them.
Lucifer>Mansions of Silence

2. Those Creation are weak.
The Creation are not weak, the only thing we know of is Yahweh discarded them because they did not meet his demand. He told his sons he did not need them and everything could play to a nicety, but he made Lucifer and Michael because they were greater than the rest he has created. People tend to say the normal Universe can hold him and why not the Mansions. This is because the Mansion are not the Creations, the mirrors contain the Creations, the Mansion is the just the structure that contains all things left and have nowhere else to go even Universes.
Yahweh failed Creations

The place of the Forgotten and Afterlife to all that cannot have

Elaine even shocked as Godhood on how Lucifer performed his feat

The same Elaine in charge of all 3 Creations and making her own Heaven and Hell to encompass all the Creation

These Universes are structure to be a stacking, endlessly in a almost Transfinite way. These Multiverses infinite amounts of Universes and Dimensions tacking on infinite possibilities and much more.

DC large unquantifiable Infinites

Levels of Infinity and Alephs

Thbarely stretching the surface when talking about DC structure and can go into larger sets of Larger Cardinal Axioms.

Larger Cardinal Axiom

Lucifer destroyed these structure as if they were just in the way. He is Yahweh Divine Will capable of shaping all forms and matters of platonic and archetypical ideas. Even Infinity bends to his Will. Every substance and every nuances is controlled and manipulated by his Will down to the lowest and highest levels.

Divine Will of Creation

To give you perspective on how large the DC Universe is read this detailed explanation I made.
How big is the DC Universe

Lucifer is above all these Creation even ones Yahweh didn’t create because he only has one superior.
Lucifer only superior

Every time I say Creation just know how big it is. Being a Creator in DC especially to one as big as Yahweh and other gods is already 1-A

Transgress above the Jin En Mok, Formless gods of voidless space in the destruction of their Creation. Beings capable of forming back with their non-dual self that can destroy Creation as side effects.
Jin En Mok

Berim himself was scared of Lucifer before he realizes his power were gone and even then only tries to annoy him. Archangels>Jin En Mokk beings capable of making Infinite Structures of Creation.
Lucifer > Jin En Mok

Even Berim plan of attacking the Silver City with Fernis, Sandalphon, Lilith, The Lilim, and the half breed Angelic host dared not to attack when Yahweh or Michael is there. They all were ******** there pants when they saw Lucifer and all halt just by him being there. Other 1-A beings scaring for their lives in the face of the Morningstar.
Morningstar name alone strikes fear to even Demons

Even the Basanos knows at full power even the highest of Fate Manipulation cannot work. As the Divine Will of Yahweh it is impossible to kill “Will” itself. Scaling above in power than what would be if Destiny Books could have sentience. Another 1-A literally so much lower than Lucifer in power. Had they not use many trick would easily be destroy.
Fate Manipulation useless against fully powered Morningstar

So much so Neoma who told Jill she could toy with Morningstar life because he was waning in power was so scared knowing that Lucifer still has power and easily destroy Fernis who she was using as a conduit to destroy him. Another 1-A being scared of a weakened Lucifer because Infinity is hard to fit into account.

Infinite is still Infinite

1-A beings a lot weaker than a weakened Lucifer

Another 1-A being begging for her life

Basanos, Fernis, and the Jin En Mok all 1-A beings fairly high up on the scale all scared of Lucifer.

Now we go up into the conceptual hierarchy with the Night and Time alongside the Endless.

Night and Time are the first two beings from the endless Void to have existed. The coming of these two formulated every single existence of the possible Infinite Multiverse of the Greater Omniverse.
Before the beginning was the Night. And the Nightwas without boundaries and the Night was without end. In the beginning was Time. The rentless beat in which things could happen, in which everything could become, dust could coalesce and matter could exist. In that coming together, the Universe was possible, all versions of it. In it, people could dream and die. In it stars burned and flared and went out.

main-qimg-9b86f6ab4eb3849ed69836b53e84693f-lq

This is where the lines start getting stretched. These two beings can very easily be High 1-A because of how DC structures their Universes to be Infinite and then Multiverse to several layers of Infinite and etc……. Lucifer is equal to Michael and only surpassed by their father. Even these two beings are still inferior although they may have more influence over existence, Lucifer is much more powerful. Even their son Dream of the Endless fears Lucifer.

Dream of the Endless scared of Lucifer

Lucifer is deathless in the immortal sense. Death heralded question whether she will ever get the chance to ask him things because as long as Yahweh is nice, Lucifer is eternal. You cannot kill Will that is greater than Death itself. This is why I like how Gaiman and Carey writes they write the answer in subtle details.

Lucifer > Death

Death question if she might even see Lucifer again and Lucifer could destroy her if need be

Banishes Death from his Creation

Withheld Death

He could even tear and burns pages from Destiny’s Book. The Book of Soul mapping everything in Creation and down to the smallest detail. Lucifer destroying these pages is similar to just being angry and performing a Multiversal feat.

Lucifer 1-A feat as casually as possible

The Book contains everything and is so paradoxical it writes itself in anything that occurs. This mean anything and everything

Scales above 1-A that could maybe qualify as High 1-A as Omniversal truth of every Creation. Lucifer casually being more powerful than all of them.

When the first Creation was set about the rules of that Creation. Order maintain in the Universe even to those of the Endless must follow and in so forming a Council. This of the First Circle sets about the rules and regulation for every single Creation.

The Glories

Something that the Endless sworn to follow

They were unaffected by Dream making existence reappear again

Lucifer casually breaks rules that even Yahweh imposes.

Lucifer Creation to rivals Yahweh

Destroying the Mansion

Splits his gate infinite way for every Universe, Realm, and Dimension in his Universe

Lead a revolt, ruled Hell, and left it

All this to condelude himself from the plan. Suffice to say the Glories rules don’t apply to him. Shekinah whose name roughly translates to “The Glory of God” maybe be powerful but not when your against Yahweh Will that imposes those rules, the Glories would just enforce it.

Lucifer creating his own Multiverse, and to give you a scale of how large it is. It houses it’s own afterlife.

These Creation housing infinite worlds and dimension in infinite vast space into infinite Universes. The scales of these keep carrying on infinitely.

Lucifer Multiverse is the same scope as a Multiverse but on a higher scale similar to infinite structure of layers of infinities stacking on each other since he is Infinite Will he can shape it to that degree.

In the Void all these Creation are in an axis that revolves around the layers of infinity that keep stacking on infinite repetition across all space.

When Yahweh is not formed by human belief is unbound by anything. His essence that surpass everyone and everything in Creation to that of the Void beyond all Voids. His spiritual connection as his own “Oversoul.” Lucifer literally defines this being Will

By merging the Logos with the Divine became one with it’s Oversoul. The first word of God that brought Creation into existence

The Logos houses the Voice of God and is the connection for the Spectre to his master. The tower that is infinitely high and a few dare to go to

Lucifer destroying it and almost High 1-A feat

Defining the Creator limitless Will. The Creator that imposes as all the head pantheon and all the gods. The very being that created everything and Lucifer is his opposing force

The Creator beyond all comprehension and logic, so paradoxical the Void is part of it’s being. Existing beyond Mahapralaya and the dissipation of the Yuga Cycle

Everything as just fiction to this Creator minds and the Mind is the Will and Lucifer beings it’s Infinite Will

Everything in existence his dream and every small detail of his creativity and Lucifer being only 2nd to this

As we breathes his life into perfectness that became everything that is and of the duality between all things starting from the Void.

The God beyond Gods. The One Above All

Creating Michael and Lucifer to be his very own Power and Will. His creativity(Creation) and his grasp(Manipulation)


When God made the world, the first thing he created was the Host of Heaven. Beginning with your father, Michael—-and Lucifer
For everything else that was made, they were his intermediaries.
Michael’s Demiurgic Power gave birth to the first matter and Lucifer’s Will shaped it into suns.
main-qimg-98f622cf6cd0b1457e37d858e7020b5c-lq


So yeah Yahweh deserves High 1-A as well as Lucifer and Michael.
 
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Every single comic book scan needs a citation before this can even begin to be evaluated.
 
Every single comic book scan needs a citation before this can even begin to be evaluated.
It was my mistake on that behalf but for the most part it’s just a bit of Vertigo comics like Lucifer and Sandman. With a bit of JLD, Doctor Fate, and Spectre. From now on I will cite but this was already to long to go back for. For the most part most people already know the scan I was just digging dropper since Vertigo is written a lot differently from DC.
 
It was my mistake on that behalf but for the most part it’s just a bit of Vertigo comics like Lucifer and Sandman. With a bit of JLD, Doctor Fate, and Spectre. From now on I will cite but this was already to long to go back for. For the most part most people already know the scan I was just digging dropper since Vertigo is written a lot differently from DC.
I understand, it’s just citing comic scans is wiki policy
 
Does luci really merged with overvoid?
No it has never happen. The idea was if he kept traveling eventually his perception will be gone. So he stop or keep going as he will be eventually engulfed by the Void and “become” it. Not as merge with it but simply be out of reach.
 
I think Yahweh most definitely because even if you combined Lucifer and Michael as much as possible they still won’t match him. There was no limit to his power. Michael and Lucifer at full power scale so much higher and this isn’t even over scaling but they are much greater than everyone in Creation.

Comparing them to any 1-A beings is fallible. All 3 are much more powerful than even the strongest Vertigo has to bring.
 
I don't know much about vertigo so sorry I can't help much here.

Although I don't see the point here, since everything will soon get separated during the revamp
So should we close this thread then?
 
Hello in today’s content revision I think we should look over Lucifer Morningstar and why he deserves High 1-A.
I appreciate the work you put into this, however, the organization and presentation leaves a lot to be desired. It would be helpful to focus less on finding as many scans as you can, and more about putting together a clear explanation as to why you feel the character is High 1-A as compared to the 1-A he currently is.

Without understanding why and how certain evidence is being used, it's impossible to evaluate.


I also don't feel that all of your evidence is described accurately which is a big problem. You should stick as closely as possible to what the source material literally says, only adding your own explanation with clear reasoning rather than implying the scan says it directly if it doesn't.

For example:

This scan only says "infinity." Nothing about unquantifiable or anything like that.

Overall I can't speak to an evaluation without understanding the reasoning, and of course I do not want to sift through every scan and try to cobble together an explanation myself.

So if you can explain per the criteria why you feel like Lucifer should get upgraded, and show us why certain scans support that justification, we can go from there.
 
I appreciate the work you put into this, however, the organization and presentation leaves a lot to be desired. It would be helpful to focus less on finding as many scans as you can, and more about putting together a clear explanation as to why you feel the character is High 1-A as compared to the 1-A he currently is.
Most of the presentation isn't necessarily just about the having the scan it connects to the idea of how Lucifer is when compared to the structure of the Multiverse and his power and control over a larger part of the Cosmology. I feel the upgrade isn’t a huge leap of power because for the most part what Lucifer has shown can easily equate to being High 1-A.

Without understanding why and how certain evidence is being used, it's impossible to evaluate.
For example, we know Yahweh words created the Multiverse in which Lucifer and Michael in turned shaped into beings.

In doing so created a structure large enough to contain Infinite amounts of worlds, dimensions, and universe in the totality they made. This is baseline 1-A, however because of how DC is structure these are in larger quantity as if we were to equate this to mainline DC it would be everything just outside the Source Wall.
Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg
I won’t go in-depth with explaining the Cosmology Structure because the map isn’t finished or goes through the points much. However we do know each Universes is unquantifiable infinite.
Universes co-existing have Infinite Universes

With a larger structure like the Multiverse containing the Infinite amount of Universe, they keep stacking endlessly.
Multiverse

There are an immeasurable amount of these Multiverse, but we will stop there because Lucifer and Michael created these structure using the Infinite Power (Demiurgic Power) and Infinite Will large enough to create a Creation that is a larger scheme of the word Universe, Cosmos, Multiverse forming a totality that encompasses being like the Endless and all cosmic rules and entity that exist in it.
Mike Carey explaining how Universe and Multiverse are synonymous to each other. To gr the idea these are broken down into level and the Creation emcopasses all that and more on a larger scale

What people miss is that it is a Universe and a Multiverse but there are levels to it and when they stack infinitely in repetition getting these almost cardinal-like structures each Aelph bigger than the last which is to a Creation all-encompassing. This applies to all of the Creations hence why it can be argued why the Jin En Mok, Glories, and Endless can get High 1-A and yet Lucifer is so much more powerful than these guys.

Lucifer literally is embodiment of this Divine Creator Will. Yahweh isn’t different from the Divine Presence, the only difference is Yahweh is bound to a form that he does not need but just uses. His still Infinite and Eternal as the Void is a way for Mike Carey to connect the Creator Mind is the Void. The unconscious also known as the Sea of Brahma or “The Sleep of the Creator.” Lucifer embodies this Creator that exist beyond Mahapralaya as the 5 cycles of Hindu Cycle.
Divine Smile is just Yahweh when he chooses not to use aspect or come into form

Lucifer defines his limitless Will as capable of shaping these Creation that spaces for the Infinite Universes or these countless Multiverse because in scope they are the same but in scale they differ as Lucifer explain his Creation real size in conjunction to what is explained previously known to us about what the Universe and Multiverse have in common to a Totality that is Creation.
Multiverse as large as Yahweh

I also don't feel that all of your evidence is described accurately which is a big problem. You should stick as closely as possible to what the source material literally says, only adding your own explanation with clear reasoning rather than implying the scan says it directly if it doesn't.
Vertigo is written differently from DC. This is how they are written, the info isn’t subject to change. It just doesn’t cover the full topic since its interpretation differs. The scan is what they say, although I admit maybe more the context was needed. However, it's not different from the Source Material I expanded upon it. Not everything has to be explain exactly word for word.

This scan only says "infinity." Nothing about unquantifiable or anything like that.

Deagon you read for context. These are parallel world containing Infinite Possbilties which is an Infinite Universe all within these worlds. The worlds are also Infinite. See where this is going? Most people read it just as blatantly as possible when the scan is just showing part of the context we readers have to finish.

What did you think “Infinite numbers throughout all possibilities meant” is not to be read as Infinite possibilities, it's read as Infinite possibilities in these worlds that is Infinite. The scan actual says this, people misinterpret it because they see a specific word. Unquantifiable doesn’t need to be said it can be indeed within these text. Again not everything has to be said because it still doesn't go away from Source Material when saying that.
 
In doing so created a structure large enough to contain Infinite amounts of worlds, dimensions, and universe in the totality they made. This is baseline 1-A
I'm not convinced the DC Multiverse is 1-A, but for the time being, I will accept this part of your reasoning.

However we do know each Universes is unquantifiable infinite.
Are you trying to say "Uncountably Infinite?" And if so, can you explain your reasoning? Scans that say infinity don't necessarily amount to an uncountable infinity.

What people miss is that it is a Universe and a Multiverse but there are levels to it and when they stack infinitely in repetition getting these almost cardinal-like structures each Aelph bigger than the last which is to a Creation all-encompassing
Okay, so your argument essentially is that the levels of the multiverse represent alephs, and that they stack infinitely? I will say, you will have a hard time proving this.

Not everything has to be explain exactly word for word.
I get that, but you can't go around saying "unquantifiably infinite" to describe a scan that doesn't have the word "unquantifiable" in it without explaining why you added that.

These are parallel world containing Infinite Possbilties which is an Infinite Universe all within these worlds. The worlds are also Infinite. See where this is going? Most people read it just as blatantly as possible when the scan is just showing part of the context we readers have to finish.
I do see where it is going, but infinity * infinity =/= uncountably infinite. Infinite multiverses which each have infinite universes which each have infinite timelines isn't a stacking of alephs. For these additional infinities to have meaning in the context of the tiering system, you have to provide evidence of qualitative superiority, not just another instance of the word infinity.
 
that multiverse map I see on all these threads says that the Sphere of the Gods is home to demons, angels and the endless. I did a quick wiki search on “the endless” and found a few characters who are 1-A, and presumably Lucifer is considered an Angel, yet Darkseid who iirc is in the sphere of the gods is low 1-C in his true form.

is there any level to scaling consistency on this site when it comes to DC comics at all?
 
Also, DC Comics itself has extremely limited scaling consistency, so you are complaining to the wrong people.
 
I am not sure what your complaint is. Are you saying all beings from the Sphere should be tiered the same? If so, why?
I’m suggesting that we currently accept the sphere of gods as a plane that ranges from low 1-C to 1-A and have seemingly arbitrary interpreted who goes where in said scale.
 
Not arbitrarily. DC Comics just portrays them all over the place.

Also, we have made an extreme and prolonged effort to prepare an upcoming revision for DC Comics that will hopefully help us get a much more logical scaling system.
 
I’m suggesting that we currently accept the sphere of gods as a plane that ranges from low 1-C to 1-A and have seemingly arbitrary interpreted who goes where in said scale.
It's not arbitrary. Every rating was justified in a CRT.
 
It's not arbitrary. Every rating was justified in a CRT.
Yes, I never said it was arbitrary, I made the statement it was “seemingly arbitrary” which I suppose is more of a comment on the lack of connectivity between the abstracts of DC in how they appear on their wiki pages. When you have a map granted to us by the authors claiming 1-A characters exist in the same plane of ideas as low 1-C characters, it does kind of seem as though the intent of power or level of abstraction is being vastly misinterpreted or just as likely miscommunicated.

it most definitely doesn’t help every other person appears to have a drastically different interpretation on the cosmology and I suppose canonicity (although that might not be the right term but with all the DC retcon events I don’t know what term to use) of a lot of material.
 
When you have a map granted to us by the authors claiming 1-A characters exist in the same plane of ideas as low 1-C characters, it does kind of seem as though the intent of power or level of abstraction is being vastly misinterpreted or just as likely miscommunicated.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your reasoning, but this seems pretty easy to dismiss.

There's no reason to assume beings from the same plane are the same tier. Parademons and Darkseid exist on the same plane, but they are not the same tier. Superman and Batman are from the same plane, but they are not the same tier.

However, I agree that most of the cosmic beings in DC are vastly misinterpreted in terms of power.
 
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your reasoning, but this seems pretty easy to dismiss.

There's no reason to assume beings from the same plane are the same tier. Parademons and Darkseid exist on the same plane, but they are not the same tier. Superman and Batman are from the same plane, but they are not the same tier.

However, I agree that most of the cosmic beings in DC are vastly misinterpreted in terms of power.
I’m not arguing for any sort of upgrades nor downgrades, however parademons aren’t deities, to my knowledge they don’t have abstract true forms, and you’d probably know this, but do they appear on Earth without the need for avatars?

Superman and Batman are both 3D, I think that the fact Superman is stronger is very much not relevant to what I’m saying at all. Low 1-C characters can be stronger than other low 1-C characters as well, as I’m sure you know.

I’m just saying that when we have authors intending of all these abstract beings to be native to 1 plane, it seems like a misinterpretation of intent to have such drastic differences in tiers. The difference between 1-A (aleph 2) and low 1-C (aleph null) I don’t even think can be described adequately in English.
 
however parademons aren’t deities, to my knowledge they don’t have abstract true forms, and you’d probably know this, but do they appear on Earth without the need for avatars?
I'm just using them as an example that two beings in the same plane aren't necessary equals. Also, to my knowledge no. Most of the beings in the Sphere do not have Avatars as far as I know.


The difference between 1-A (aleph 2) and low 1-C (aleph null) I don’t even think can be described adequately in English
I agree, the upcoming revisions aim to address some of this.
 
I’m not arguing for any sort of upgrades nor downgrades, however parademons aren’t deities, to my knowledge they don’t have abstract true forms, and you’d probably know this, but do they appear on Earth without the need for avatars?

Superman and Batman are both 3D, I think that the fact Superman is stronger is very much not relevant to what I’m saying at all. Low 1-C characters can be stronger than other low 1-C characters as well, as I’m sure you know.

I’m just saying that when we have authors intending of all these abstract beings to be native to 1 plane, it seems like a misinterpretation of intent to have such drastic differences in tiers. The difference between 1-A (aleph 2) and low 1-C (aleph null) I don’t even think can be described adequately in English.
parademons aren`t from the sphere. They are captured slaves tortured and experimented on.
 
I'm just using them as an example that two beings in the same plane aren't necessary equals. Also, to my knowledge no. Most of the beings in the Sphere do not have Avatars as far as I know.



I agree, the upcoming revisions aim to address some of this.
Yes but not having the same power isn’t the same as two native beings having sizes 2 alephs apart.

and I look forward to the revision.
 
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