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Went back and checked and yea, sadly it's dub only
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DBZ Toei: More Downgrades
- Thread starter Vizer04
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I legit don’t think Kid Buu is that much stronger than Buuhan Tbh, if we accept Vegito as being above even kid Buu as a SS1 ( considering Goku actually regrets not finishing Buu when he was Vegito) he at bare minimum should be 1/50th of Kid Buu.
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Did he? I recall him actually making Super Vegito put more than just casual effort at specific points during the fight but I could be wrong.
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I can unlock it. Is someone able to edit it?
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Does everyone accept my revised keys above?
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Using Goku's Ki sensing ability as a counterargument to Kid Buu>Buuhan isn't exactly in good faith, considering how half those Kid Buu>Buuhan anime statements come from Goku himself, who has fought and/or sensed Super Buu, Buutenks and Buuhan.
In the manga and by extension the anime it's explained by Shin that the heart/emotions "soul" he developed from the personalities of his absorptions made him weaker and not capable of putting out all his power as a result. In the manga it's left vague if he only meant absorbing Grand Kai or the entire Fat Buu/Super Buu identity created by absorptions in general, and the anime simply takes on the latter interpretation. This isn't hard to grasp or comprehend, nor is it consistency or narrative breaking in any way.
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GT does have Super Baby 1 claiming to have obtained the greatest Saiyan power after taking everyone’s energy which is promptly followed by Goku saying he never felt a power as awesome as his which in both cases would include Super Vegito as Baby had Vegetas Memories and Goku could remember his time as Vegito ( something he mentioned in his fight vs Kid Buu)
Nullflowerblush
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His Revenge Death Ball was also powerful enough to disturb Kibito Kai in the space between dimensions, but I dunno if that is enough to put him above Buuhan.
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I think it makes sense. Baby went to his equivalent Super Saiyan form and was stronger than SS3 Goku, so his base is >>> base Goku that was casually stomping Super Saiyan + heavily trained Potential Unleashed Gohan (according to the GT Perfect Files, which is substantiated by his SS form being stronger than his base that fought almost on par with Rildo in the Super 17 arc).
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So how does this new Baby scaling affect the GT scaling chain(s)?
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IIRC, Majuub is stronger than this particular Baby, since he needed the full strength of his SS2 form to win.
In the next arc, Goku and Vegeta put up a way better fight against Super 17 in their Super Saiyan forms than Majuub could in general.
It's probably not a small gap, either, since base Gohan (although far inferior, as Majuub one-shot Ridlo) produced a Super Kamehameha that was portrayed as stronger than Majuub. Although GT has some of the vaguest scaling ever.
In the next arc, Goku and Vegeta put up a way better fight against Super 17 in their Super Saiyan forms than Majuub could in general.
It's probably not a small gap, either, since base Gohan (although far inferior, as Majuub one-shot Ridlo) produced a Super Kamehameha that was portrayed as stronger than Majuub. Although GT has some of the vaguest scaling ever.
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I think the general portrayal of their fight vs S17 places everyone in SS1 around Majuubs level, he actually powers up and flares his Aura when Gohan Goten Vegeta and Trunks Transform.
Vegeta himself at that point should most likely be = Majuub since he was the last man standing before Goku arrived.
Ayewale
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This could probably come off as thread derailment, but I am curious about something. Apologies for asking but:
Isn't it wiki policy to treat feats as being greater than statements in terms of validity? Going by that logic, all of the statements about Kid Buu being the strongest Boo are made invalid by virtue of Buuhan's better feats, no? It reminds me of how the naruto manga states plainly that Pain is the strongest member of the Akatsuki but we all collectively decided that statement was pure bullshit because Obito/Tobi displays far better feats.
Of course, some feats are dismissed due to being outliers that contradict statements, but from what I can tell Buuhan's short-lived existence consistently portrays him as being a lot stronger than Kid Buu in terms of feats. I've read arguments that member Goku got a very, very large zenkai boost, but having to create headcanon to justify something that already breaks the rules sucks.
However a lot of smart people seemed to have agreed that Toei Kid Buu > Toei Buuhan, so I probably missed something. But I went through most of the posts here, I think?
@Vizer04
Isn't it wiki policy to treat feats as being greater than statements in terms of validity? Going by that logic, all of the statements about Kid Buu being the strongest Boo are made invalid by virtue of Buuhan's better feats, no? It reminds me of how the naruto manga states plainly that Pain is the strongest member of the Akatsuki but we all collectively decided that statement was pure bullshit because Obito/Tobi displays far better feats.
Of course, some feats are dismissed due to being outliers that contradict statements, but from what I can tell Buuhan's short-lived existence consistently portrays him as being a lot stronger than Kid Buu in terms of feats. I've read arguments that member Goku got a very, very large zenkai boost, but having to create headcanon to justify something that already breaks the rules sucks.
However a lot of smart people seemed to have agreed that Toei Kid Buu > Toei Buuhan, so I probably missed something. But I went through most of the posts here, I think?
@Vizer04
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I know it’s not the point, but this is just… wrong. Pain is never directly stated to be the strongest member of the Akatsuki in the manga proper, and Obito’s doesn’t have better feats than him until he gets the Rinnegan.
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Having better feats only takes precedence over those statements if said statements are flagrantly contradicted. That's not really the case for Kid Buu>Buuhan, and the fight with Goku definitely isn't one, considering how he's stated to be an extreme troll who holds back to drag shit out, this is why even Base Vegeta can take a beating from him. The only time Kid Buu probably really put out his full power is resisting the Spirit Bomb.
Also Toei Goku does indeed get ridiculous Zenkais to such an extent, he literally re-overpowered the Spirit Bomb which was then under Kid Buu's control after having his stamina restored as SSJ1, and even the episode title is literally "Son Goku is strongest after all."
Ayewale
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In one of the manga chapters it's said at the end of a chapter that "Pain, the strongest member of the akatsuki rises!" I don't remember the actual chapter right this moment but I'm not just lying.
Feats take precedence over statements pretty much always, not only if the statements are 'obviously' wrong. Although the point about the zenkai seems to make sense (although from what I remember, Goku and Vegeta usually call-out said zenkais and we don't usually just assume it happened).
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I didn’t say you were lying, I said the statement doesn’t exist in the manga proper. The little blurbs at the end of each chapter don’t exist in the official translations.
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If that's true, I'll revise it soon.
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Ironic that Goku was supposed to get downgraded but not Base Baby Saga GT Goku scales to 1.5x the fusion reborn calc (IIRC)
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Can you please unlock it since my proposed keys above were accepted?
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Basically, his values are like this:
Baby Saga:
Edit: Finished revising GT Goku's page, so check it out and lemme know if you have any issues
Baby Saga:
- Base: 127.5 zettafoe
- SSJ1: 6.375 yottafoe
- SSJ2 and 3: Upscale to Baseline 3-B
- SSJ4: At bare minimum 2x Baseline 3-B, since Elder Kai said he was only using "a fraction" of his power in the Japanese sub against Super Baby Vegeta 2 and he was still toying with Baby Vegeta despite using only a fraction of his strength
- Base: 1.181 yottafoe (As he shook Hell which is 1/4 of the power of the Fusion reborn feat)
- Super Saiyan 1, 2, 3, and 4: 59+ yottafoe
- Super Full Power Saiyan 4, the Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Dragon Fist, and Universal Spirit Bomb are all 3-A
Edit: Finished revising GT Goku's page, so check it out and lemme know if you have any issues
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I thought that SSJ4 was accepted as 10x SSJ1?
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No multiplier other than SSJ1's 50x is allowed.
And regardless, SSJ4 is way above 10x SSJ3, contrary to what Death Battle thinks.
SSJ Baby Vegeta stomped SSJ3 Goku, yet Super Baby Vegeta 2 (which is confirmed to be his version of SSJ3) was scared of Golden Oozaru Goku, making Golden Oozaru alone above 8x SSJ3.
And SSJ4 is clearly above Golden Oozaru, since SSJ4 Goku was equal to Golden Oozaru Baby (and since SSJ1 Baby Vegeta > SSJ3, if Golden Oozaru was as strong as SSJ4 than Golden Oozaru Baby would've stomped SSJ4 Goku).
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It's basically about stacking the Oozaru's multiplier on top of SSJ1, and SSJ4 is above that, but you're right that it would be 10x above SSJ3, not 1.
Also we do accept other multipliers, like the kaioken.
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Well I'm not talking about SSJ2 or 3's multiplier, I'm talking about the Oozaru's multiplier.
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Oozarus multiplier is accepted, it’s just that no one thought of implementing it yet, only SS2 and 3 are not accepted.
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We could use a bare minimum value of 10x SSJ to at least give a concrete lowball number to SSj4's strength instead of simply putting higher.
Both are confirmed multipliers in more than just a single guide book statement
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