DBZ/GT non canon ratings and Universe size

[SSJRyu1]

So just wanted to mention a few things for Z/GT guys that are showing tier 3 for them. I know there was a thread about this recently but it was abruptly closed befroe I could even finish my post so I wanted to put this up.

Off the top of my head for confirmation of tier 3

1. Goku shakes afterlife (heaven alone is size of Universe)

(size of heaven = Universe) https://imgur.com/a/E6zOr

(shaking all other world) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMQeueJnzSo

For further proof they actually specifically mention Goku doing this feat as well in Dokkan saying he has the power to shake the Universe. (non canon, but considering this is non canon Goku, and this is official, and referencing that specific feat, worth mentioning.)

https://imgur.com/a/XnJss

2. Syn alone has the power to wipe out a galaxy with his energy and it's stated by popo shadow dragons have in the past and that the dragons could wipe out the universe even unfused by elder kai

(Elder kai says they can wipe out the Universe without being fused even.)

https://imgur.com/a/YAc3j

Popo says that in the past evil dragons quickly wiped out the planet and surrounding galaxies they were on (literal word used is Ginga which means galaxy or galaxies, likely plural is the contexct as they chose cosmos for translation as opposed to galaxy)

https://imgur.com/a/hSYAT

States Syn has enough power to destroy the entire galaxy

https://imgur.com/a/MfsrX

3. Omega is a immediate Universal threat stated in GT and TOIE website with his power, to the point Kibito kai wants to run, so not over many years or a ridiculous time frame.

https://imgur.com/a/y0Rkw

(TOIE site)

http://web.archive.org/web/20051222073531/http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragonball/48.html

""What a surprise? Now shenron is the enemy?

At last, Goku and his friends defeated Dr. Myuu's ambitions. In order to resurrect Krillin and restore the ruined Earth, Goku and his friends gathered the dragon balls, but they had cracks in them. Nervous, Goku called shenron. But an evil dragon appeared instead, ready to do evil deeds. The evil dragon stole the seven dragon balls and spread them all over the world! The evil dragon seems to have been born because Goku and his friends have used the dragon balls too much. If they leave him alone, he would destroy not only the Earth but also the whole universe. What is the evil dragon power that can destroy the universe? And can Goku beat this mysterious power? Now a fierce battle over the destiny of the whole universe has begun."

4. Janemba actually warps all hell which is the size of the Universe. 3-A (but arguably not combat applicable)

https://imgur.com/a/k6vOk

5. Hirudegarn is stated to be able to destroy the Universe multiple times.

https://imgur.com/a/CqQoU

6. As well as many for buu etc of being an immediate threat to the Universe, holding back a spirit bomb made from the Universe's energy etc. which fits right in with tier 3, albeit more vague than the other feats earlier.

https://imgur.com/a/MAIqq

https://imgur.com/a/Pchxy

https://imgur.com/a/o3FYj

https://imgur.com/a/1kXfy

7. And of course the infamous Vegito and Buuhan being able to collapse the Universe, even if by chain reaction it is very impressive to have Universal range and be able to cause a collapse on that scale with power by warping space. Which btw Vegito overpowers and states to buuhan that he should focus all that power on him.

https://imgur.com/a/NM2FW

So yeah, lots of tier 3 feats and statements in DBZ/GT non canon.

It's certainly not outlier as we have many instances since Buu arc and in movies and GT as well as guides and other secondary canon media.

And for anybody who claims the Universe is only 4 galaxies, first off Super proves that wrong, and it uses the same cosmology as DBZ etc. Second the term "galaxy" can also be translated as "galaxies" so that makes any mention of north galaxy etc also translate to north galaxies, so it was never solid proof for 4 galaxies to begin with. But if that's not enough Buu destroys galaxies in the past before any DB events yet all 4 are present, Broly does to, and the shadow dragons do to, yet we still see the 4 quadrants remain, and we see the 4 galaxies in GT with Omega to during the simulation by elder kai. So it is illogical to cling to the notion of 4 galaxies in any DB media when Super has ditched it and there is significant evidence against it, with shaky arguments from secondary sources like guides or translations open to interpretation for it at best.


Edit: Multiple showings of many diffrent galalxies, star structures etc beyond the yellow galaxies shown in GT. btw this is all post Buu and Omega destroying galalxies in the past. Much more than 4 diffrent galaxies over all even despite galaxies being destroyed in the past.

http://www.abload.de/img/omegadestroytheuniverv4ubs.gif


https://youtu.be/9HX1x9epWtY?t=309


https://youtu.be/QMdQqS_pB8M?t=30


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFOQZUjEE0c


https://youtu.be/dFOQZUjEE0c?t=200

 

[AguilaR101]

hmm, the thing about goku's universe shaking feat is that it could be calculated if we have the right variables, so it needs to be calculated.

I think most of these statements are supportive of tier 3 feats, though not necessarily 3-A, at least the popo statement seems like a solid 3-C if nothing else.

I have no real opinion on the size of toeis DB's cosmology, Heaven = Universe seems legitimate and kai realm is 1/5th the size of an universe according to guidebooks.

But the simulation thing really does seem to portray more than 4 galaxies, considering the fact Buu has destroyed one in the anime continuity those objects you see besides the three ones shown in the gif can't be the stars of a 4th galaxy but rather other galaxies that are farther away from the observers POV.

 

[IkaniL]

I agree that the GT universe should probably be considered to be similar to the Super cosmology. There is nothing explicitly saying there are only a few galaxies, and that galactic clusters aren't the intended meaning. It also doesn't make sense since at least two galaxies have been destroyed already.

However, I disagree with anything higher than possibly or just galaxy level since we have several outright galaxy busting claims and then some over-time universe busting claims. The Shadow Dragons being able to destroy a galaxy is said in the anime and then GT files, and we have Syn Shenron being capable of destroying a galaxy hinted at in Tenkaichi Budokai. Unlike the universe busting claims, there is implication the Shadow Dragons could destroy a galaxy very easily. It also fits in with powerscaling.

Btw, the GT characters have MFTL+ speed. He likely could zip around galaxy busting, rather than just destroying the universe entirely.

You left out Omega Shenron going to destroy the galaxy, which is another scan in the GT files.

The feat regarding Buu attempting to collapse the universe probably shouldn't have been brought up, its unquantifiable and is heavily regarded as an outlier.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@AguilaR101 I agree Gokus feat can be quantified when used for proof, but ive seen similar universe shaking feats in the past and they come out to 3-B so im confident that it would as well if we use a normal size universe, or observable universe for that matter to calc it.

I agree, most indicate 3-C or 3-B, but we can agree they should eb tier 3 for sure.

Agreed, it is clear heaven = Universe and Hell is depicted as similar size at least and iirc it to is said as wide as Universe in guides.

I agree, and we actually have the shadow dragons in the past being stated to have destroyed galaxies to by popo.

And we even see other blue galaxies etc in other DBZ scenes that are seemingly vastly different ones from the GT ones to, this is all post buu and dragons destroying the galaxies btw in terms of timeline.

https://youtu.be/9HX1x9epWtY?t=309 https://youtu.be/QMdQqS_pB8M?t=30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFOQZUjEE0c

So certainly more than 4 galaxies. And DBS has already specified this anyway.

 

[Firestorm808]

Dragon Ball GT follows the Anime of DBZ, including all of the filler. If the Anime shows that there are more than 4 galaxies, then... yeah.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would also like to say that the destruction of a galaxy isn't immediate. It could be a decaying effect due to the negative energy. I have the Japanese GT Perfect files that I plan on uploading the scans of soon.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well I'm gonna head off to bed, but I would be interested to see the feedback tommorow and such.

• To Admins/Mods Kindly don't close the thread until I have come back to see the feedback and give any sort of response or rebutle if neccisary. I will likely be busy till tommorow night at which time I will check back.

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

I fully agree

 

[IkaniL]

I would also like to say that the destruction of a galaxy isn't immediate. It could be a decaying effect due to the negative energy. I have the Japanese GT Perfect files that I plan on uploading the scans of soon.

Just because it uses that effect doesn't mean it can neccessarily take a very long time. It could happen extremely quickly, and I've seen translations of the claims saying "Immediately" too.

But hey, go for it. That could really help us out with figuring out whether they could legitimately have galaxy busting power.

@SSJRyu

Only galactic. Multi-Galaxy is the same as 3-A in terms of being an overtime thing. The best you will get out of this is GT cosmology being considered a full universe, and GT characters getting galaxy busting power accepted.

 

[Therefir]

I was looking in Janemba and Gogeta's discussions and the mayority of your arguments has been debunked, Antvasima himself said: We are not going to upgrade the size of the DBGT universe. We have had long discussions about this in the past, and it is even a forbidden topic at this point.

1. Dark649: Goku shaking the afterlife was deemed as a Solar System level feat as it was discussed with Darkanine, also in the non-canon continuity there is only the afterlife/hell and four galaxies and not multiple universes, like the canon continuity.

2. All galaxy busting statements are meaningless when you ignore that Omega Shenron cannot destroy a galaxy instantly, he was going to destroy the galaxy through a chain reaction that would take a long period of time, infecting planets and stars with his negative energy until the galaxy was destroyed, meaning that much weaker dragons also cannot destroy a galaxy.

3. Omega Shenron's negative energy shockwave would take time to destroy a single galaxy. It would eventually destroy the universe, but at such a slow rate that not even galaxies would be one-shot.

We can't use a videogame scan.

4. Janemba only managed to warp the Check-in Station and a part of hell, then it managed to warp as far as the Other World Tournament to Grand Kai's planet, but this was range alone, not AP. He can warp and make appear thousands of little constructs and not something with a planetary size or higher, so he can't reality warp an entire galaxy or the entire universe.

5. Majin Buu being 3-A based on statements of "Threat to the universe"? Is it really so difficult to comprehend basic context, rather than to just look at the words and assume the maximum possible interpretation?.

6. He is considered a threat to the universe like Majin buu, also doesn't make any sense that Hirudegarn could be stronger than Omega Shenron, who needs time in order to destroy a galaxy.

7. Collapsing dimension is not attack potency and is completely unquantifiable. And like you say it's a chain reaction. Also, this was only done with what amounts to a suicide attack and a technique only available to this form of Buu.

The galaxies thing was answered in the first paragraph.

 

[Firestorm808]

Found the scenes from GT only talking about 4 Galaxies.

[1]

https://imgur.com/a/CjT73

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with Heaven being universe sized and the whole otherworld is big enough that even heaven seems puny compared to it.

I also agree with the 4 galaxies being 4 areas/sections. The only argument about it being only 4 galaxies stems from the lack of plurals in japanese language. Herms also covered it: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11656&p=302382

 

[AguilaR101]

The fact that we see three different anime-only galaxies and star clusters in Z that look very different from the ones portrayed in GT pretty much confirms that the universe isn't following a 4 galaxy model

 

[Therefir]

What do you suggest with all of this?, GT still have 4 galaxies.

 

[AKM sama]

Suggesting that the reason for using "4 galaxies only" is wrong as there is no evidence of it. That's all.

 

[AKM sama]

"However, Kaio introduces himself to the Great Elder as "the Kaio of the North Galaxy" (ÕîùÚèǵ▓│Òü«þòîþÄï/kita-ginga no kaiou; in Viz he says "god" instead of "Kaio"). There's no real plural in Japanese, so "North Galaxy" could also possibly be "North Galaxies"."


"Rather than "galaxies", the South Kaio talks about "Areas" (Òé¿Òâ¬Òéó/eria). Goku is said to be the first or second strongest warrior from the North Area, and South Kaio mentions his own South Area (in Viz, "Area" isn't used, and they simply say "the North" and "the South")."

 

[Golden_Void]

This is already a thread.