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DBS Manga Cosmology Rework (Downgrade)

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StarShooter80

StarShooter80

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To be straight forward, in the following threads it was accepted to split the manga, current anime, and toei continuities from being alternate realities, which resulted in the manga cosmology getting downgraded from its current 3 universes rating:
vsbattles.com

Dragon Ball's Main Cannon Timeline number downgrade

got permission from @Damage3245 to create this thread, doing in a staff thread given the unbelievable amount of bloat created in past threads about the topic when made in normal CRTs Forget this up above This thread's objective is to cover up some misconceptions about the Dragon Ball cosmology...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

Continuation of this thread Now that the mutiverses have been separated, now we deal with the consequences of it 1 What remains shared Now that the current justification for full shared cosmology is not valid anymore, is there anything that would still be valid for both continuities? 2 Size...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
The votes for the afterlife being a Low 2-C structure was 2 agreements, 1 likely agreement, 2 disagreements, and 1 neutral. The Kaioshin Realm is unquestionably no longer a Low 2-C structure in the manga, as it relies on the anime afterlife calc to be significant enough in size, but now it's just an insignificant 4-D structure that is 3-B in size.

So now all Low Multiverse level tiers will be "Universe level, likely Low Multiverse level (2 universes)"

For now there'll simply be a note on Goku's profile, highlighting how "due to the Afterlife being portrayed as equal to the living world in most macrocosm depictions, being said to be the dead world that contrasts the living one, and being referred to as "the cosmos" several times, it may likely qualify as a universal structure, as agreed in this thread." or something along those lines. A proper cosmology page for the manga will definitely be made in the future, alongside Toei, but for now this will do. Thanks to @Omegabronic for checking on some of this.

Edit: however there’s also the afterlife statement regarding it transcending the living world entirely, making it a larger structure (don’t ask how I forgot) which should justify it being solidly Low 2-C even on its own, with aforementioned evidence further supporting that, so I’ll change it to just solidly 2-C (2 universes).

(Only counting staff)

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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Iirc Afterlife doesn't even have time so it wouldn't even qualify for Low 2-C on it's own in the manga atleast
 
Saqphire said:
Iirc Afterlife doesn't even have time so it wouldn't even qualify for Low 2-C on it's own in the manga atleast
Click to expand...
Considering the context of the statement it's referring to how Goku in SSJ3 doesn't have a time limit in the Afterlife, but in the living world it drains the remaining time he has (with the 24hrs of life he was given by Baba)
image.png
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Considering the context of the statement it's referring to how Goku in SSJ3 doesn't have a time limit in the Afterlife, but in the living world it drains the remaining time he has (with the 24hrs of life he was given by Baba)
image.png
Click to expand...
Would this make afterlife having BDE?
 
Johner2133451 said:
Would this make afterlife having BDE?
Click to expand...
I'm not saying the afterlife has time, I'm saying Goku using SSJ3 in the afterlife has no issue since he can live there and use it indefinitely, so no time is being drained. But the 24hrs of time he's given in the living world can be drained by SSJ3. The statement is just misinterpreted as "the realm having no time at all"
 
Saqphire said:
Iirc Afterlife doesn't even have time so it wouldn't even qualify for Low 2-C on it's own in the manga atleast
Click to expand...
That's kinda iffy to be 100% true considering after life has gravity
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1143371737040420996/1277183601321971789/image0.jpg?ex=681dbd6b&is=681c6beb&hm=ae50279051dbda77b95fa4aa4e23c1165f8cc3bc4acafb887cf2498e61b50ac8&
Gravity is accurately described by the general theory of relativity, proposed by Albert Einstein in 1915, which describes gravity not as a force, but as the curvature of spacetime, caused by the uneven distribution of mass.

And then you have this
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1143371737040420996/1277186052028764241/IMG_20240407_153425.jpg?ex=681dbfb3&is=681c6e33&hm=8ecee96d3d10b7efea9a224251981ac1cd2be0e7401123069cde06d6b3c370d8&
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1143371737040420996/1322141182570008606/Screenshot_20241227-150711_YouTube.jpg?ex=681dd16e&is=681c7fee&hm=2400afd77e182200e8d3c23e12a2ecb73cc047967fadab5692108181617d3012&
So all in all, its iffy to claim that the Afterlife is truly timeless
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Considering the context of the statement it's referring to how Goku in SSJ3 doesn't have a time limit in the Afterlife, but in the living world it drains the remaining time he has (with the 24hrs of life he was given by Baba)
image.png
Click to expand...
There was a databook statement saying verbatim "The concept of time doesn't exist in the Other World" (Other World = Afterlife) so take that as you will
Hellformer said:
That's kinda iffy to be 100% true considering after life has gravity
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1143371737040420996/1277183601321971789/image0.jpg?ex=681dbd6b&is=681c6beb&hm=ae50279051dbda77b95fa4aa4e23c1165f8cc3bc4acafb887cf2498e61b50ac8&
Gravity is accurately described by the general theory of relativity, proposed by Albert Einstein in 1915, which describes gravity not as a force, but as the curvature of spacetime, caused by the uneven distribution of mass.
Click to expand...
Yeah I don't think applying the theory of relativity to a verse like Dragon Ball would be such a good idea because you'd have to concede to Goku being illogical since he moves faster than light and has mass at this point of the story, not only that, Afterlife is a fictional realm that don't need to follow our universe's rules
Hellformer said:
And then you have this
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1143371737040420996/1277186052028764241/IMG_20240407_153425.jpg?ex=681dbfb3&is=681c6e33&hm=8ecee96d3d10b7efea9a224251981ac1cd2be0e7401123069cde06d6b3c370d8&
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1143371737040420996/1322141182570008606/Screenshot_20241227-150711_YouTube.jpg?ex=681dd16e&is=681c7fee&hm=2400afd77e182200e8d3c23e12a2ecb73cc047967fadab5692108181617d3012&
So all in all, its iffy to claim that the Afterlife is truly timeless
Click to expand...
Honestly my interpretation would still hold, since the macrocosm map from Toriyama depicts the macrocosm as a giant globe which supports the interpretation that it's all one giant universe. Afterlife not having time would thus not be contradictory since it can have time from the overall Universe and not a separate flow of time, which would be supported by the events of Afterlife happening in-tandem with the real world
 
Saqphire said:
There was a databook statement saying verbatim "The concept of time doesn't exist in the Other World" (Other World = Afterlife) so take that as you will

Yeah I don't think applying the theory of relativity to a verse like Dragon Ball would be such a good idea because you'd have to concede to Goku being illogical since he moves faster than light and has mass at this point of the story, not only that, Afterlife is a fictional realm that don't need to follow our universe's rules
Click to expand...
I don't mean to apply the concept of relativity as a whole because fictional verses tend to follow a certain aspect of few theories, not completely.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1143371737040420996/1156208714462810132/Screenshot_20230926-180649_YouTube.jpg?ex=681d4f06&is=681bfd86&hm=d00ebf31f34e701ba4567761fe432bdc8fc4dc195ad02891bc91803d56bafbd8&
The shapes you see in the notebook (especially the funnel-shaped structures) very closely resemble diagrams used to illustrate how gravity curves spacetime in general relativity.

In Einstein's theory of General Relativity, mass and energy bend spacetime, and objects move along these curves — this is what we perceive as gravity. The funnel-like diagram in the notebook resembles the classic 2D visualization of a gravity well: a massive object (like a planet, star, or black hole) curves the "fabric" of spacetime.

So yes, the diagrams are almost certainly based on spacetime curvature due to massive objects, Wormhole concepts for theoretical time travel or shortcuts across the universe, And gravity's role in bending spacetime in a way that might allow time manipulation.
Saqphire said:
Honestly my interpretation would still hold, since the macrocosm map from Toriyama depicts the macrocosm as a giant globe which supports the interpretation that it's all one giant universe. Afterlife not having time would thus not be contradictory since it can have time from the overall Universe and not a separate flow of time, which would be supported by the events of Afterlife happening in-tandem with the real world
Click to expand...
It does not? Because the scans say otherwise.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1143371737040420996/1322141182247174234/Screenshot_20241227-150700_YouTube.jpg?ex=681dd16e&is=681c7fee&hm=0489a423c5150cae15c52445f4979a8e559f4c7fe555ba976abbc2a4ac28c2b9&
Another one btw
 
Not sure if this scan exists in manga as well lol
Hellformer said:
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1143371737040420996/1156208714462810132/Screenshot_20230926-180649_YouTube.jpg?ex=681d4f06&is=681bfd86&hm=d00ebf31f34e701ba4567761fe432bdc8fc4dc195ad02891bc91803d56bafbd8&
Click to expand...
 
MrTayman616 said:
I think that's more like physical time. Like Prison realm from jujutsu kaisen(Not saying it's the same).

You don't get tired or older etc, no energy loss. But time do passes. Proofs of the passage of time also supports it.
Click to expand...
Also, Whis rewinding time and reviving everyone killed in RoF and Gowasu in Zamasu arc. Unless I'm forgetting something, if Afterlife had no time, their souls would've been in the afterlife the moment they died so rewinding time wouldn't have brought it back
 
Doesn't Afterlife encompass the heaven which was stated to be as big as the living world?
 
Hellformer said:
Doesn't Afterlife encompass the heaven which was stated to be as big as the living world?
Click to expand...
That’s an anime exclusive statement in the Daizenshuu, signified by the star symbol
TheGodOfICE777 said:
2-C should be solid; the afterlife is referred to as a cosmos, and it’s said to transcend the human world. The justification of the afterlife transcending the dimensions present in the human world was accepted in my thread too, and it’s unquantifiably bigger.
Click to expand...
I actually forgot about that statement, I’ll re-edit the OP to add it as a separate proposal later
 
Hasty12345 said:
Isn’t the afterlife directly stated to be half the macrocosm?
Click to expand...
It's stated to be the upper half of it, yes. With the lower half being the living world. The macrocosm is comprised of those two halves. Then the Kaioshin Realm near it is 1/10th of that in size, so 1/5th the size of a universe at minimum.

You can find that info in the DBS Anime cosmology blog. Most of the scans it uses would apply to the manga as well.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
It's stated to be the upper half of it, yes. With the lower half being the living world. The macrocosm is comprised of those two halves. Then the Kaioshin Realm near it is 1/10th of that in size, so 1/5th the size of a universe at minimum.

You can find that info in the DBS Anime cosmology blog. Most of the scans it uses would apply to the manga as well.
Click to expand...
Given the size of the living world being stated to be infinite, all of those would be infinite anyway since dividing infinite by a finite number is still infinite, meaning the argument that "it's only infinite in the anime" is pretty much moot
 
MrTayman616 said:
I think that's more like physical time. Like Prison realm from jujutsu kaisen(Not saying it's the same).

You don't get tired or older etc, no energy loss. But time do passes. Proofs of the passage of time also supports it.
Click to expand...
Well that kinda contradicts the verbatim statement since conceptual time includes all aspects of time as that's how concepts work but I don't feel like dying on this hill anyway so
 
CryoTheMayo said:
It's stated to be the upper half of it, yes. With the lower half being the living world. The macrocosm is comprised of those two halves. Then the Kaioshin Realm near it is 1/10th of that in size, so 1/5th the size of a universe at minimum.

You can find that info in the DBS Anime cosmology blog. Most of the scans it uses would apply to the manga as well.
Click to expand...
That’s what I thought.

So what’s even the problem with low 2-C afterlife?
 
Saqphire said:
Given the size of the living world being stated to be infinite, all of those would be infinite anyway since dividing infinite by a finite number is still infinite, meaning the argument that "it's only infinite in the anime" is pretty much moot
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the manga universe is still considered finite. Otherwise this thread wouldn't even exist.

I don't personally agree with the Kaioshin Realm not counting as a significant 4D structure because I really don't think that 5x difference in scale should be enough to justify a literal infinite gap in power but whatever. Wiki standards.

Hasty12345 said:
That’s what I thought.

So what’s even the problem with low 2-C afterlife?
Click to expand...
Nothing. People are smoking shit.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Pretty sure the manga universe is still considered finite. Otherwise this thread wouldn't even exist.
Click to expand...
Jesus bro, there are databook statements that would encompass the manga universe that say it's infinite like what are we doing ? 😭
CryoTheMayo said:
I don't personally agree with the Kaioshin Realm not counting as a significant 4D structure because I really don't think that 5x difference in scale should be enough to justify a literal infinite gap in power but whatever. Wiki standards.
Click to expand...
Wiki standards striking again smh
 
Saqphire said:
Given the size of the living world being stated to be infinite, all of those would be infinite anyway since dividing infinite by a finite number is still infinite, meaning the argument that "it's only infinite in the anime" is pretty much moot
Click to expand...
It should be
Hasty12345 said:
That’s what I thought.

So what’s even the problem with low 2-C afterlife?
Click to expand...
A bit of a rant but I've never had a problem with Low 2-C Afterlife, the likely rating was just there because of the previous threads
CryoTheMayo said:
Wiki standards
Click to expand...
Basically, but whatever keeps the Toei agenda going yk?
 
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