DBS Episode 127 Upgrades

[Sera_EX]

@Dark

E x a c t l y.

 

[LordAizenSama]

It's no a headcanon, it is a fact. Outliers are a thing and it would do you well to address them.

Also lol now people want Low 2-C 17 without self-destruct.

You keep repeating muh outlier wont make it become one.

Well, he has the feats for it :')

Oh boi here come the irrelevent salt comparisons.

 

[Kepekley23]

We've thrown the point at people's heads many times. Maybe it will return as a boomerang and actually hit them.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

18 fought Universe 3 robots who are shown to be Base Goku, Vegeta, and Base Gohan levels, she's fought many Universal fighters in the ToP, including Ribrianne without being amped.

• 18 fighting Ribrianne is her outlier, using it as an argument doesn't help your point. And if she needs to be amped to fight Ribrianne fighting her while not amped is not an outlier.
• 18 and 17 fighting the robot works both ways. I can use it as an argument for 18 being High 4-C. It's just as unreasonable. Also 18 never laid a direct hit or endured one without her brother's help.

 

[BUS73R998]

17 was able to hurt jiren, trade blows with him AFTER jiren powered up and whooped everybody.

 

[Omimi]

I don't have any personal desires to upgrade 17 lol. My avi is of him only for a week because he sacrificed himself, out of respect lol
Anyway, it is fiction. Where dragons can grant wishes because why not. It absolutely doesn't have to make sense.

"Where does 17 get that newfound energy from? Is it from his reactor?" From plot. Plot demanded that Goku should turn ssj1 because why not? Plot demaded that Gohan should turn ssj2 because why not? Plot demanded that Vegeta should get a bluer form out of nowhere because why not? The same plot always demads that self-destruct outputs much more power in exchange of your life.

by this logic there will be no outlier for any verse cuz plot demads

without outlier multiverse naruo,bleach etc

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Iceman needs a 1-A key now.

Iceman being 1-A is more logical since he had the explanation of being amped.

 

[PaChi2]

Im against Low 2-C 17 in any shape or form.

 

[AKM sama]

"You have yet to prove a reason why 17's should be." To which I will say "because it is shown right there in the episode."

To which you'll say "And that's an outlier because it doesn't make much sense."


And it would keep on going. lol

Anyway, can we at least add barrier manipulation and self destruct in his abilities?

 

[Peter1129]

So how many are against and how many are for Low 2-C 17 via Self-Detruct.

And how many are for or against At least 3-A At most/Possibly Low 2-C 17 w/ Barriers.

 

[Dark649]

Anyway, can we at least add barrier manipulation and self destruct in his abilities?

I already added them.

 

[ByAsura]

18 fought Universe 3 robots who are shown to be Base Goku, Vegeta, and Base Gohan levels, she's fought many Universal fighters in the ToP, including Ribrianne without being amped.

• 18 fighting Ribrianne is her outlier, using it as an argument doesn't help your point. And if she needs to be amped to fight Ribrianne fighting her while not amped is not an outlier.
• 18 and 17 fighting the robot works both ways. I can use it as an argument for 18 being High 4-C. It's just as unreasonable. Also 18 never laid a direct hit or endured one without her brother's help.

So you just grab this and rate it as an outlier, even though the only real thing to show she's lower if fighting a Krillin level opponent. Also, she does so again against Ribrianne.

If you actually watch the fight, she keeps up with it in combat and does comparable damage to its armor.

18 also withstood being in the pretty black hole, and fought against Tupper.

 

[Kepekley23]

I agree with Matt in literally every point.

This thread, summed up:

• X: 17 is Low 2-C because (yadayada)

• Y: No, he isn't because (insert stuff here)

• X: But he is Low 2-C because (yadayada)

• Y: No, he isn't because (insert stuff here)

It's tiresome.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So, to recap:

• The gap between 3-A and Low 2-C is infinite
• 17 hasn't had any Zenkai Boost since the beginning of the tournament since that doesn't even work with his biology
• Nobody has given any concrete explanation as to why 17 can randomly become infinitely stronger
• The self-destruct technique is demonstrable in Dragon Ball to be so ineffective it doesn't even make you one Tier higher. Chiaotzu, 16, Cell and Vegeta all used it to no effect.
• Nobody has responded to it being an outlier other than by repeatedly explaining the outlier (Brilliant)
• Nobody has addressed the logical absurdity of the feat and just use the debunked fallacy of "Lol its fiction".

So yeah no upgrade.

 

[Peter1129]

The gap between 3-A and Low 2-C ISN'T infinite in Dragon Ball everybody has already agreed on this in a previous thread.

 

[BUS73R998]

Android 17 was even able to withstand a power impact from Jiren and is also the first fighter to actually cause noticeable damage to Jiren with a sneak attack. his self destruction was able to repel jirens blast.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Fhfhghghg

If 18 was 3-A she'd never have needed Krillin's assistance and fought alongside him as a duo while showing no signs of suppression, and clearly even struggling. And that lasted for multiple episodes.

If 18 was 3-A she wouldn't be much weaker than a guy who was thousands of times weaker than suppressed Base Vegeta

If 18 was 3-A she wouldn't need to be saved by 17 once Kefka powered up, which sent her flying away, when everyone else from Gohan to Piccolo stood their ground.

If 18 was 3-A you are admitting that dishwashing makes one 3-A. I mean, Mr. Miyagi proves it can be effective, but not by this method.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

17 is already "At least 3-A" with barriers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not anymore.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yeah no.

Maybe try listing the counterarguments instead of just things that debate within ta favor?

Because looking through the thread. Plenty has been said ya left out.

 

[Dark649]

The gap between 3-A and Low 2-C ISN'T infinite in Dragon Ball everybody has already agreed on this in a previous thread.

Dragon Ball should be not treated as a special verse where this does not apply because it's DB, the gap being ingnored is just bad writing.

 

[Sera_EX]

Stop mentioning the gap between Low 2-C and 3-A is infinite. Please.

It really looks bad. Again, we accept Jiren and Beerus for that matter held back infinite amounts of strength and Jiren likewise power up infinitely to above Infinite Zamasu levels.

The gap means nothing in DB. It can easily be closed and for all we know DBS does not make the distinction unlike us.

I don't care about the actual upgrade in itself. It's just painful to see people using flip-flop logic.

 

[BUS73R998]

Not anymore.

lul. i think its easy to ignore facts and events that happen in an episode simply because they arent going the way u want them to be. thats what i think ur doing rn. kudos on the downgrade.

 

[LordAizenSama]

LAS tries it: debunking matthew as easily as possible

The gap between 3-A and Low 2-C is infinite

Fiction dun care m9

17 hasn't had any Zenkai Boost since the beginning of the tournament since that doesn't even work with his biology

DBS writing doesnt care

Nobody has given any concrete explanation as to why 17 can randomly become infinitely stronger

Suicide move big strong yes.

The self-destruct technique is demonstrable in Dragon Ball to be so ineffective it doesn't even make you one Tier higher. 16, Cell and Vegeta all used it to no effect.

Irrelevent headcanon

Nobody has responded to it being an outlier other than by repeatedly explaining the outlier (Brilliant)

Burden of proof u need is yes

Nobody has addressed the logical absurdity of the feat and just use the debunked fallacy of "Lol its fiction".

It is fiction n it dun care

Yes upgrade

 

[Kepekley23]

@Peter

You misunderstood the thread completely. We agreed on the gap between Low 2-C and 3-A not being infinite as long as Character A showed a new form, a huge power-up or a zenkai. None of this happened with 17 at all

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yeah bad writing. Not making the fact less true.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Here's a good debating advice: Dividing one feat into 10 is a terrible tactic.

17 fighting Jiren is one feat, and it's an outlier. Suddenly grabbing that feat, tearing it like mincemeat and then listing every single time they punch each other in the fight as its own feat is disingenuous as f*ck.

You are desperately trying to hide the outlier by stretching one feat into numerous.

 

[PaChi2]

"If 18 was 3-A she wouldn't need to be saved by 17 once Kefka powered up, which sent her flying away, when everyone else from Gohan to Piccolo stood their ground."

False, nobody you mentioned is baseline 3-A and Kefla isnt baseline 3-A either.

"If 18 was 3-A you are admitting that dishwashing makes one 3-A. I mean, Mr. Miyagi proves it can be effective, but not by this method"

As effective as park ranging.

Anyway, 18 is not the topic of this thread, please drop it. Create a proper CRT for her if you wish.

 

[ByAsura]

Anyway, 18 is not the topic of this thread, please drop it. Create a proper CRT for her if you wish.

Sorry, i didn't see that, i will remove my reply.

 

[Aeyu]

Idk about the rest of this thread, but I do think the At least 3-A rating needs to be returned. He did demonstrate at least this and it makes him scale to Anilaza, something which was largely agreed upon before.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Stop mentioning the gap between Low 2-C and 3-A is infinite. Please.
It really looks bad. Again, we accept Jiren and Beerus for that matter held back infinite amounts of strength and Jiren likewise power up infinitely to above Infinite Zamasu levels.

The gap means nothing in DB. It can easily be closed and for all we know DBS does not make the distinction unlike us.

I don't care about the actual upgrade in itself. It's just painful to see people using flip-flop logic.

"DBS doesn't care so we don't care" is a terrible tactic. If you don't like the infinite gap between 3-A and Low 2-C then don't debate 3-A to Low 2-C things. I'm serious. It's a basic tenant of our tiering system.

And you fail to realize that transformations allow one to became Tier 2, or even Tier 1. And you fail to realize that even Higher-Dimensional characters can suppress themselves to an incredibly lower level.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Kepe

Vegeta didn't do that until Toppo. So his upgrade was initially invalid as he did nothing to Jiren and had Goku helping him.

 

[BUS73R998]

why atleast 3-a also removed from 17s profile? xD

 

[Peter1129]

Wait somebody removed the at least 3-A part from 17's Profile? When and why?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>At least 3-A by virtue of 3-A feats, a tier with an infinite gap

>Durability feats listed as AP

You have to absolutely be kidding to thinking it is legit. It makes him a stronger degree of 3-A. That's it. At least understand it means.

 

[Kepekley23]

At least 3-A for 17's durability, not his AP, is fine. Nothing further.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Idk about the rest of this thread, but I do think the At least 3-A rating needs to be returned. He did demonstrate at least this and it makes him scale to Anilaza, something which was largely agreed upon before.

At least 3A, low 2c suicide move?

Sounds good to me

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"False, nobody you mentioned is baseline 3-A and Kefla isnt baseline 3-A either."

If she was baseline 3-A, like Piccolo, she wouldn't need saving.

"As effective as park ranging."

17 was fighting and working out on a daily basis. He was ranging a park containing animals so rare even aliens tried invading it.

 

[Peter1129]

He damaged Anilaza with his barriers that's how he got At least 3-A in AP. At least I think that's how.

 

[Aeyu]

He was able to use his barriers offensively, though. This was demonstrated several times throughout the ToP.