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DBS Episode 127 Upgrades

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Peter1129 said:
At this point I'm seriously starting to believe you have some kind of grudge against 17. Before the second half of the tournament you kept going on about how 17 isn't SSB lvl but now it turns out he's SSB lvl that borderlines SSBKK. You also went on about how Gohan is stronger than 17.
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Gohan harmed full-strength SSB and Goku had to go Kaioken to beat him. 17 was matched by a suppressed SSB Goku.

That's really it. Ignoring all proper arguments and going "Lol, you are biased" is terrible debating. It's no different than accusing the people here of being biased for accepting such a humongous, grotesque outlier.
 
Low 2-c self destruction is fine. The only arguments against it is ERMAGERD I DONT BELIEVE IT MUUUH OUTLIER. It contradicts nothing. Its poor writing? Yeah, so what? that's all DBS has ever been.
 
Can we accept that 18 is an outlier as well? She was amped in the fight against Ribrianne, never did anything beyond High 4-C elsewhere, and never trained once since the Buu Saga. Unless you think dishwashing and housecleaning makes you 3-A.

The only reason it is accepted is because people only want more biggatons for Dragon Ball.
 
Gohan never harmed full strength SSB Goku he only punched him I think 2 times than Goku went Kaioken and one shot him. Later on in the tournament Gohan was portrayed as weaker than both Frieza and 17 the former who stalemated SSB Goku. And like I've said SO many times we didn't know if Goku was holding back as in using less power in SSB or not using Kaioken. But judging from what's happened in the tournament it seems like he was holding back in kaioken as his best feat was fighting Base Toppo a SSBKKx2 Lvl fighter and hold his own against him in a Beam struggle.
 
He was also able to spar a little with Golden Frieza and match Koichiarator: the fusion of three robots.
 
17 is not stronger than UI Goku(1st trigger) normally. I'm with you on that one. But imo, it is not completely illogical if he achieves that level by blowing himself up. Even if it doesn't make much sense but we should treat the power of self destruct as such. It outputs far more power in exchange of your life.

About his barrier, he only started using his full power against Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren. His barrier was fine against Anilaza and Toppo. GoD Toppo was able to break it with his repeated justice flash but that was just one barrier. In this episode, he used a series of many concentric barriers to hold off Jiren's attack for a while.
 
17 is quite obviously by feats stronger than Gohan.

Gohan had about two seconds of "being on par" with ssb goku and that's it. Even that is questionable.
 
Also, this about SSJ2 Goku "keeping up" with Gohan; he wasn't. He got thrown away like a doll.
 
@Gargoyle and @LAS

If you are just going to be condescending and fail to address the fact that it is an outlier, then do yourselves a favor and stop. Thank you.

Debating in bad faith either from admited bias towards the series / a desire to mock it, or just for the lols is not something this thread needs.
 
"17 is not stronger than UI Goku(1st trigger) normally. I'm with you on that one. But imo, it is not completely illogical if he achieves that level by blowing himself up."

Here's something more reasonable than what you are saying:

"It's not illogical for Robot Bob, who is only 9-B normally, to reach 3-B levels of enegy by blowing himself up"

The energy gap between 9-B and 3-B is legit lower than between 3-A and Low 2-C.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Can we accept that 18 is an outlier as well? She was amped in the fight against Ribrianne, never did anything beyond High 4-C elsewhere, and never trained once since the Buu Saga. Unless you think dishwashing and housecleaning makes you 3-A.

The only reason it is accepted is because people only want more biggatons for Dragon Ball.
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I post this again. Downgrade 18 to where she rightfully is.
 
How is 17 fighting multiple SSB and above fighters an outlier for 17 and not Gohan who only trained for a day?
 
Whoah Whoah Whoah I swear I wasn't trying to be condescending, I made a joke but clearly it wasn't worded properly, removed

Also, I never said it isn't an outlier, it is, I merely made a joke about how ridiculous the scaling was and how at this point someone really started to dive into the inconsistencies.

Removed my previous, my apologies.
 
Peter1129 said:
How is 17 fighting multiple SSB and above fighters an outlier for 17 and not Gohan who only trained for a day?
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Gohan did not train for one day, he's been training throughout the series, what he did is get his Potential Unleashed state back by training with Piccolo.
 
LordAizenSama said:
Its not a outlier. Stop being salty that gohan is weaker than 17.
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You don't even believe Dragon Ball Super is 3-A in the first place, and you go "Seems reasonable" to any DBS upgrade to mock it. I listed several reasons why 17 harming Jiren is an outlier. And once again, stop with the "Lol, salty" non-argument. Actually bring something to the discussion other than your unsollicited snark.
 
Peter1129 said:
How is 17 fighting multiple SSB and above fighters an outlier for 17 and not Gohan who only trained for a day?
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I'm not against SSB level-ish 17. I am against anything above it even with Self-Destruct.
 
Nobody is upgrading 17 to Low 2-C via harming Jiren. We are only upgrading his self-destruct and possibly his barriers for somewhat withstanding Low 2-C attacks.
 
Matt, that's how blowing up works in DB. It always has. It doesn't have to make sense.

Look at GT Goku, his dragon fist gives him a boost, doesn't it? Even if it is just a punch? There are several techniques and moves that give a boost in power to characters and it happens in a lot of verses.
 
Gargoyle One said:
Whoah Whoah Whoah I swear I wasn't trying to be condescending, I made a joke but clearly it wasn't worded properly, removed
Also, I never said it isn't an outlier, it is, I merely made a joke about how ridiculous the scaling was and how at this point someone really started to dive into the inconsistencies.

Removed my previous, my apologies.
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Thank you for your apologizes, it was also not right of me to be aggressive towards you.

And I do plan on going through the arc again once it ends and point everything wrong with the current scaling in the profiles.
 
No, he wasn't.

  • Chapter: 406 (DBZ 212), P9.2
  • Context: after it turns out No.16's bomb has been removed
  • Cell: "Too bad, No.16…Though I don't think I would have died from a mere bomb anyway."
 
Nice accusations it would be a shame if I asked you for proof :')

Jiren had his guard down, which explains how 17 injured him. Maybe not low 2c but still impressive.

He is low 2c by cancelling out jirens attack with suicide bomb. Scales to noone and isnt inconsistent with anything.
 
AKM sama said:
Matt, that's how blowing up works in DB. It always has. It doesn't have to make sense.
Look at GT Goku, his dragon fist gives him a boost, doesn't it? Even if it is just a punch? There are several techniques and moves that give a boost in power to characters and it happens in a lot of verses.
Click to expand...
It absolutely has to make sense. Thanks for proving a point, you are arguing out of a personal desire to have Low 2-C 17, nothing more. It makes 0 logistical sense.

Where does 17 get that newfound energy from? Is it from his reactor? If so, how does he not collapse under his own power? And if he has so much power, why can't he make access to a signifcant chunk of it while not blowing himself up and solo the rest of the tournmanet?

It makes no logical sense and creates plot holes, ignore it.

GT Goku amping himself with a special move and like, not even by 100,000 times is nowhere near as absurd as this.
 
To be fair, he was reinforcing his barriers by duplicating them a few times. So he made them stronger than the ones he used that Toppo broke and Ribrianne one shot. The barrier he used to push back Jirens attack was also different and clearly stronger.

So the Low 2-C comes from the reinforcement he can do with the barriers and the self destruction.
 
Jinx666 said:
To be fair, he was reinforcing his barriers by duplicating them a few times. So he made them stronger than the ones he used that Toppo broke and Ribrianne one shot. The barrier he used to push back Jirens attack was also different and clearly stronger.

So the Low 2-C comes from the reinforcement he can do with the barriers and the self destruction.
Click to expand...
This.
 
Fhfhghghg said:
Tbf, 16 was going to kill a casual Cell with self destruct.
Not saying it's High 3-A though.
Click to expand...
I hope you realize that this is a false equivalency of the highest level. 16 is High 4-C, and not baseline, and Cell is High 4-C also, and also not baseline.

16's Self-Destruct, the most impressive in the series, doesn't even make him 1530 times stronger. Saying it allows 17's to be infinitely stronger is inane.
 
The mere act of 17 holding a candle against either GoD Toppo or Jiren is an outlier. No matter how you rationalize it.

I can better rationalize Superman one-shotting a 2-A by singing and it isn't in his profile. That at least has an actual explanation tied directly to the core of DC Cosmology.
 
17 barriers are not Low 2-C, God Toppo easily broke them and Jiren initially did the same.
 
@Matt

16's bomb wasn't even going to kill Cell, as stated in the series itself. So yep, that's a super Association fallacy.
 
>Jiren had his guard down, which explains how 17 injured him

Haven't seen the episode, but if that's the case it's like trying to scale to 3-B the gun that scratched Goku while his guard was down
 
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