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Fiction doesnt care between low 2c and 3-a. Hence ssj kefla is 3a and ssj2 kefla is low 2c matthew.
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DBS Episode 127 Upgrades
- Thread starter JackJoyce
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- android 17 dragon ball jiren
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A lot of the 3-A 18 scaling is also due to things like this. "She shot a 3-A so she's clearly 3-A".Kaltias said:
By this logic every Dragon Ball character ever is 3-A through backwards scaling as everyone has grazed everyone once or twice.
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LordAizenSama said:
SSJ2 Kefla is Low 2-C for actual feats and statements. And it is a new transformation. Super Saiyan makes you as strong as the plot demands Aizen. Not at all comparable with just blowing himself up in base thus releasing all your base energy.
If Buu Saga Vegeta had blown himself up while in base, and that somehow killed Majin Buu and ended the arc, that would have made more sense.
It is an outlier in every sense of the word. Both through sheer numerical gap, and feat inconsistencies as it is his only Low 2-C feat vs many things that are 3-A.
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DBS really doesn't factor in that the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C is infinite.
Like how Kefla in SS is 3-A but in SS2 is Low 2-C.
Like how Kefla in SS is 3-A but in SS2 is Low 2-C.
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If the Spirit Bomb is twice as strong as SSBKKx20 and Pre-Jiren UIO is 2x Spirit Bomb than that would mean the difference between Pre-Jiren SSB (3-A) and Pre-Jiren UIO (Low 2-C) is at minimum 80x in Dragon Ball (yes I know the gap might be far larger). So it's not that hard to believe that Android 17 can be Low 2-C via self destruct.
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I don't have any personal desires to upgrade 17 lol. My avi is of him only for a week because he sacrificed himself, out of respect lol
Anyway, it is fiction. Where dragons can grant wishes because why not. It absolutely doesn't have to make sense.
"Where does 17 get that newfound energy from? Is it from his reactor?" From plot. Plot demanded that Goku should turn ssj1 because why not? Plot demaded that Gohan should turn ssj2 because why not? Plot demanded that Vegeta should get a bluer form out of nowhere because why not? The same plot always demads that self-destruct outputs much more power in exchange of your life.
Anyway, it is fiction. Where dragons can grant wishes because why not. It absolutely doesn't have to make sense.
"Where does 17 get that newfound energy from? Is it from his reactor?" From plot. Plot demanded that Goku should turn ssj1 because why not? Plot demaded that Gohan should turn ssj2 because why not? Plot demanded that Vegeta should get a bluer form out of nowhere because why not? The same plot always demads that self-destruct outputs much more power in exchange of your life.
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Bluetrekking said:
Already debunked this reasoning, also I hope you realize you are all advocating for literally ignoring the Tiering System to hide an outlier.
You pulled this numbers out of where exactly? x80?
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I'm against Low 2-C 17 from harming Jiren when they literally stated Jiren had his guard down. Later Jiren tanks a similar attack from 17 like nothing.
17 barriers are Low 2-C since GoD Toppo nedded a barrage of attacks to break it. 17 can also add layers to his barriers that can even stop a attack from Jiren for a few seconds.
Obviously trying to use this against Toppo would be stupid since Hakai.
I'm dropping 17's Self Destruction.
17 barriers are Low 2-C since GoD Toppo nedded a barrage of attacks to break it. 17 can also add layers to his barriers that can even stop a attack from Jiren for a few seconds.
Obviously trying to use this against Toppo would be stupid since Hakai.
I'm dropping 17's Self Destruction.
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So your entire argument is the fallacy of "LOL, its fiction, doesn't have to make any sense, I admit it doesn't, but we don't have to make any sense either LOL"
This entire site is about making sense of fiction. It's why we do calculations, do scaling, have the concept of an outlier which writers don't have, and try to quantify things with numbers of Joules.
So saying we don't have to make sense because it doesn't make sense is going against the very core of what this site stands for.
Also thanks for destroying the Low 2-C 17 argument by admiting it is illogical.
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It aint a outlier. Fiction does not care between 3a and low 2c. It's not only supersaiyan transformations.
There is nothing inconsistent with this at all. You just keep repeating it is ??? Profit
The majority are fine with it.
There is nothing inconsistent with this at all. You just keep repeating it is ??? Profit
The majority are fine with it.
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Outliers? Now all of a sudden it's outliers? This whole arc has been inconsistencies and irregular powerscaling. We take what we can get, but how does Vegeta scale to Low 2-C and not be an outlier just because of a new transformation (the upgrade was before Toppo mind you) yet 17 wouldn't?
17 went up against a serious Jiren
Vegeta went up against a "semi-serious" Jiren with Goku's help no less and he also didn't even hurt Jiren, yet got Low 2-C off that. 17 actually hurts the dude and gets lolnoped. Vegeta should only he Low 2-C via defeating Toppo. If Vegeta would've went at a serious Jiren he would've faired no better than Frieza did.
So yeah, please stop being bias towards your favorite characters.
17 went up against a serious Jiren
Vegeta went up against a "semi-serious" Jiren with Goku's help no less and he also didn't even hurt Jiren, yet got Low 2-C off that. 17 actually hurts the dude and gets lolnoped. Vegeta should only he Low 2-C via defeating Toppo. If Vegeta would've went at a serious Jiren he would've faired no better than Frieza did.
So yeah, please stop being bias towards your favorite characters.
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I remember being one of the biggest advocates for 18 being 3-A and NOT being 3-A at the same time.
Although, I agree with 3-A 18 being an outlier. It was bothering me for a while.
Although, I agree with 3-A 18 being an outlier. It was bothering me for a while.
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Nothing is going to get done in this thread.
People clearly can't have a civil discussion about this.
People clearly can't have a civil discussion about this.
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The difference between Fat Boo and SSJ2 Vegeta was barely 3x. This is a hasty generalization.AKM sama said:
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Majority is actually agreeing with me, while the people for Low 2-C 17 are just screaming "LMAO fiction is dumb so let's be dumb too".
@Sera
Low 2-C Vegeta isn't an outlier, nor is Goku, because ding ding ding: New forms. Transformations can make one 1-A depending on the Verse.
17 going against a serious Jiren despite being weaker than SSB Goku (Albeit not by much) makes as much logical sense as me beating Saiyan Saga Vegeta.
Here's something for y'all: Descring the outlier in detail does not make it stop ceasing being an outlier. Got it?
You're accomplishing nothing for the debate. You are going "Character should be Low 2-C because he did this", to which we respond "We know, and it is an outlier because this, this, an that", to which you respond "He is Low 2-C because he did this".
And the loop repeats.
@Sera
Low 2-C Vegeta isn't an outlier, nor is Goku, because ding ding ding: New forms. Transformations can make one 1-A depending on the Verse.
17 going against a serious Jiren despite being weaker than SSB Goku (Albeit not by much) makes as much logical sense as me beating Saiyan Saga Vegeta.
Here's something for y'all: Descring the outlier in detail does not make it stop ceasing being an outlier. Got it?
You're accomplishing nothing for the debate. You are going "Character should be Low 2-C because he did this", to which we respond "We know, and it is an outlier because this, this, an that", to which you respond "He is Low 2-C because he did this".
And the loop repeats.
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i made a thread but it was closed even though i think there were enough evidence. anyways. the fact that 17 tanked blows from jiren and still got up and took his blast head on when he pushed vegeta away and that was without barrier is impressive.
as for the sneak attack, it was a explosion not a blast and thats why it wounded jiren. he didnt use that on toppo or couldnt simply cuz toppo was covered in hakai.
as for the sneak attack, it was a explosion not a blast and thats why it wounded jiren. he didnt use that on toppo or couldnt simply cuz toppo was covered in hakai.
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Okay, but 17 had to stack his barriers to be Low 2-C and protect everyone.
His barriers are usually 3-A, but he can stack them to a Low 2-C extent, which I'm fine with.
His self destruction, much like Vegetas, is supposed to have much larger power than the normal capabilities. Its literally an overload of power that kills the user. This was what happened with 17, and therefore it isn't possible Farfetchd to say 17 self destructing isn't over his regular power.
It cancelled out Jirens attack, which was clearly Low 2-C by now. And therefore that is Low 2-C AS A MOVE THAT PUSHES HIS LIMITS AND KILLS HIM.
His barriers are usually 3-A, but he can stack them to a Low 2-C extent, which I'm fine with.
His self destruction, much like Vegetas, is supposed to have much larger power than the normal capabilities. Its literally an overload of power that kills the user. This was what happened with 17, and therefore it isn't possible Farfetchd to say 17 self destructing isn't over his regular power.
It cancelled out Jirens attack, which was clearly Low 2-C by now. And therefore that is Low 2-C AS A MOVE THAT PUSHES HIS LIMITS AND KILLS HIM.
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So I think you are suggesting that self-destruct does output more energy, but not enough to make a 3-A character Low 2-C?
Well, can I ask how did you reach that conclusion? Is it quantified in the series or anything?
Well, can I ask how did you reach that conclusion? Is it quantified in the series or anything?
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I'm sorry but if Jiren can literally hold back infinite amounts of power then why is it so hard to believe that 17 at his peak was Low 2-C? For all that they all should just be Low 2-C to stop this 3-A/High 3-A/Low 2-C nonsense. That differentiation only applies to certain, more accurate verses. No wonder Ultima and Ven hate 3-A...
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100% agree it should be removed. She was bizarrely amped by Love against Ribrianne, which is orders of magnitude more powerful than anything she did, and her blasts aren't as strong as 17s. He had to be saved from that Sentai Guy by 17, the same Sentai Guy who got stomped by a casual Vegeta after amping his speed and power by x4,000.Kepekley23 said:
She is significantly weaker than Base Goku and Base Vegeta through every feat she does except Ribrianne, which surprise surprise, was her send-off episode, which is why they hyped her up.
Same with 17 in this last episode. They get outliers to make them look cool for the audience of 8 - 14 year olds DBS is aimed at.
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About the 18 Downgrade:
18 fought Universe 3 robots who are shown to be Base Goku, Vegeta, and Base Gohan levels, she's fought many Universal fighters in the ToP, including Ribrianne without being amped.
It's not that much of an outlier.
Also, we never saw her train on screen.
18 fought Universe 3 robots who are shown to be Base Goku, Vegeta, and Base Gohan levels, she's fought many Universal fighters in the ToP, including Ribrianne without being amped.
It's not that much of an outlier.
Also, we never saw her train on screen.
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16's self-destruct doesn't make him even x10,000 times stronger. Same with Vegeta's. 17's making him infinitely stronger is nonsense.AKM sama said:
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Negative matthew. They aren't.
We are not revising DBS profiles to suit your headcanon of whats a outlier or not. You need serious evidence that it contradicts the story and it does not. You just simply don't like 17 being that strong because its dumb. Welcome to DBS.
We are not revising DBS profiles to suit your headcanon of whats a outlier or not. You need serious evidence that it contradicts the story and it does not. You just simply don't like 17 being that strong because its dumb. Welcome to DBS.
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A quick summary:
- The gap between 3-A and Low 2-C is infinite
- 17 hasn't shown any power-ups or new forms, and has admittedly not even TRAINED since then
- The gap between Cell and 16/Fat Boo and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was finite and they were in the same tier. So using this as an example is the epitome of false equivalencies.
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It's no a headcanon, it is a fact. Outliers are a thing and it would do you well to address them.
Also lol now people want Low 2-C 17 without self-destruct.
Also lol now people want Low 2-C 17 without self-destruct.
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Where's my 1-A Superman for harming a guy comparable to The Source. It is as legitimate as this.
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>PointAKM sama said:
>Your head
The point is that it is the same technique and it should work through proportionally the same scale. 16 and Vegeta are different in power but Self-Destruct doesn't make them that much more powerful. You have yet to prove a reason why 17's should be.
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