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Davoth Revision Discussion Thread + Other Stuff

Gewsbumpz_dude

Gewsbumpz_dude

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So, this discussion is going to be in regards to the current state of the Davoth from DOOM page. Mainly the powers as they lack reasoning behind them, lackluster and not entirely correct. Also, a change for the speed as it only goes over the reaction speed, even though he should scale to Doomguy overall.

This thread will also serve as a place to discuss new abilities that Davoth could get that he should have gotten in the first place or were discovered later on.

I am also planning on revising Samuel Hayden because the profile is extremely outdated at this point. Along with that, I would like to talk about the powerscaling and abilities of The Maykrs. Because The Khan Maykr scaling to Doomguy is laughable, albeit she can survive against Doomguy for a decent period of time but he is still way stronger then her.
 
The main problem with Davoth's profile is that most of his abilities are unsourced. I also believe, unless my memory is wrong, that we gave him a lot of powers of the Demons. I don't think we should. I don't believe being the source of a universal energy system means you get every power used by people who use said energy.
 
I know we definitely gave him the resistances of the Demons, I'm unsure about the powers.
 
Also, can someone explain to me where the following come from?

Void Manipulation, Magma Manipulation, Earth Manipulation and Vibration Manipulation
 
Void: Literally no idea.
Magma: Maybe because he created landscapes that have magma? I don't know.
Earth: He did create Hell and it has "earth" in it, so, maybe that's why. He made the ground.
Vibration: ??? I can't think of any reason for this.
 
My only two guesses for why Davoth has Void Manipulation is that he was going to reduce all of creation to nothing, "unmake" it as he puts it. Or that Hell contains voids, which he should have created.
 
There is a third option that I've heard people argue, that being that Davoth used The Void to create all of existence somehow, which I'm absolutely not a fan of since it isn't stated or even implied anywhere.
 
I can't really imagine any mediocre argument for that besides "oh davoth is a god so he can obviously create something from nothing!!!"
 
The only genuine reason I can think of is that we have something like "creating something inside a void" on the void manipulation page. This implies that voids delete shit inherently and I have no idea why.
 
Maybe they just worded it badly and meant to write something like "can make stuff inside a void that has been established to erase stuff"
Dunno.
 
I don't recall the void in DOOM being able to erase stuff. We have seen entities exist or move through the void without getting EE'd, like the demons of Hell, since them moving from Hell to Urdak is described as "passing through the void". So I doubt this void is like an existence erasing area.

Edit: We also see Davoth exist out in the void, albeit you can just make the argument that he wouldn't get erased since he is some special god, but that is assuming the void erases shit to begin with.
 
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Ok. Been doing a lot of work on this rewrite, here it is in its current state. I would really like some feedback on it, even if it is just some basic "it looks good" comment.

Also been thinking about another power for Davoth; Sealing

He is comparable to The Father as they are both Primevals, who was able to seal away the realm of Jekkad. You could say that this is contradicted later on, with it being said that The Maykrs were the ones that sealed away Jekkad, but The Father is referred as a Maykr and stated that he could have resealed Urdak if he had a physical form. So it still works.
 
Along with that, do you guys think Davoth should also have Hell's powers? I personally think he should and it is a bit obvious on why since Hell is a part of Davoth's being.
 
I'm neutral on him having Hell's powers, but I'm fine with him resisting whatever passive abilities Hell and the demons have.
hell does have random bullshit hax thats passive right i forgot
 
it has some stuff but everything it has is weird and... might not be combat applicable? Since the soul sucking thing that happens is stated to happen over "ageless time" lmao
 
Axxtentacle said:
it has some stuff but everything it has is weird and... might not be combat applicable? Since the soul sucking thing that happens is stated to happen over "ageless time" lmao
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Yeah, the soul sucking process takes eons to complete. But I don't think that limitation would apply to Davoth however, since Davoth would be far stronger since Hell is just an extension of his power and will, not even a fraction of his power mind you, just an extension of it. Plus Primevals in general from the looks of things seem to be able to interact with "essence" (the soul, the mind, the will, etc in DOOM) far faster then Hell itself can without the aid of The Maykrs. Unless you wanna seriously argue that say, Doomguy directly killing The Gladiator's soul, took eons to perform.
 
...nothing about that means pretty much anything, to be entirely blunt. The only parts that would really be important for indexing is him eating souls or, like, him being able to empower items to be able to destroy souls. Him being unquantifiably more powerful than Hell doesn't give us a way to say that he can use Hell's soul manipulation specifically in a match. Him scaling to the Doom Slayer really also doesn't mean anything here. Just use his own feats and reasonings, abilities don't scale via rank or level of power unless they're specifically mentioned to.
 
Axxtentacle said:
...nothing about that means pretty much anything, to be entirely blunt. The only parts that would really be important for indexing is him eating souls or, like, him being able to empower items to be able to destroy souls. Him being unquantifiably more powerful than Hell doesn't give us a way to say that he can use Hell's soul manipulation specifically in a match. Him scaling to the Doom Slayer really also doesn't mean anything here. Just use his own feats and reasonings, abilities don't scale via rank or level of power unless they're specifically mentioned to.
Click to expand...
You missed my point. I'm saying that the limitation of a being with less potent soul-based abilities wouldn't apply to him since he is stronger along with Primevals in general showing that they are capable of interacting with essence in more damning ways in much shorter time periods. So given that, there is no reason for that limit of Hell's Soul Manipulation to apply to him.
 
I was not saying that the limitation of Hell's soul manipulation applied to him. I said specifically Hell's soul manipulation was not combat applicable as an example, as Hell has weird powers that might not all be combat applicable.
 
Axxtentacle said:
I was not saying that the limitation of Hell's soul manipulation applied to him. I said specifically Hell's soul manipulation was not combat applicable as an example, as Hell has weird powers that might not all be combat applicable.
Click to expand...
And what I was saying that the limitation of Hell's soul-draining power, that being it takes eons to complete, wouldn't apply to Davoth.

Basically, he would be capable of doing the same, but he wouldn't have its downsides since why would they apply in the first place since his powers are superior to Hell's powers?
 
Gewsbumpz_dude said:
And what I was saying that the limitation of Hell's soul-draining power, that being it takes eons to complete, wouldn't apply to Davoth.

Basically, he would be capable of doing the same, but he wouldn't have its downsides since why would they apply in the first place since his powers are superior to Hell's powers?
Click to expand...
You should be able to apply Hell's soul hax potency to Davoth, but not the power itself, because they are not the same power. Hell's soul manipulation specifically has that weakness, and Davoth has his own. I never said the limitation would apply. I used Soul Manipulation as an example, which you basically just ignored with this response. I never said it would apply, I used it's weakness as an EXAMPLE for Hell's powers just having weird weaknesses. Meaning, other powers could have weaknesses that make them combat applicable. You are entirely off the point with this response.
 
Axxtentacle said:
You should be able to apply Hell's soul hax potency to Davoth, but not the power itself, because they are not the same power. Hell's soul manipulation specifically has that weakness, and Davoth has his own. I never said the limitation would apply. I used Soul Manipulation as an example, which you basically just ignored with this response. I never said it would apply, I used it's weakness as an EXAMPLE for Hell's powers just having weird weaknesses. Meaning, other powers could have weaknesses that make them combat applicable. You are entirely off the point with this response.
Click to expand...
So if you weren't arguing that the soul-draining limit would be applicable to Davoth's variant of it, then what was the point of you disagreeing with what I said to begin with? I said that the eons limit of Hell's Soul Manipulation wouldn't necessarily apply to Davoth if he were to use it, of which he should since Hell is an extension of his power, will and being, sort of like how you now suddenly thought it would be ok for there to be a tab on powers from other demons because he could be capable of doing the same since he basically is the power source of those abilities.

Edit: Talked things out in real life. I understand your point now.
 
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Alright, given a recent Discord discussion in Vs Central, me and Axx decided that it would be alright for there to be a tab for other demon abilities (the ones that are Hell Essence/Hell Energy/Hell Magic based) that he could be able to perform himself since he is essentially the powersource of said abilities (Hell Essence/whatever is a force that comes from and is native to Hell, and as we all know by now, Hell is a part of Davoth's being), so he should be capable of doing them himself or at the very least produce something similar. What do you guys think? if you ******* respond at all.
 
ok i wont respond then have it your way >:vvv
What's his soul hax resistance about? Does Doomguy straight up attack someone on a spiritual level with his normal attacks or...?
 
Shmooply said:
ok i wont respond then have it your way >:vvv
What's his soul hax resistance about? Does Doomguy straight up attack someone on a spiritual level with his normal attacks or...?
Click to expand...
Yeah, not only ever since the original games has he been fighting spirits, but in DOOM Eternal we see him directly kill The Gladiator's soul.
 
Gewsbumpz_dude said:
Yeah, not only ever since the original games has he been fighting spirits, but in DOOM Eternal we see him directly kill The Gladiator's soul.
Click to expand...
Except his classic key lost his non-physical interaction because it was confirmed those spirits aren't actually intangible beings. You also misunderstood what I said, what I meant to say was do his physical attacks also wound his foes on a spiritual level? Doomguy doesn't even have soul manipulation on his profile as well.
 
Shmooply said:
Except his classic key lost his non-physical interaction because it was confirmed those spirits aren't actually intangible beings. You also misunderstood what I said, what I meant to say was do his physical attacks also wound his foes on a spiritual level? Doomguy doesn't even have soul manipulation on his profile as well.
Click to expand...
I said that he can attack someone's soul directly while citting an instance where he stabbed a soul as if it was a physical thing while it was still in a "body", meaning he has attacks that would work on a spiritual level. You misunderstood what I said.

Also the only reason why that sort of thing isn't listed as Soul Manipulation is because of our standards on NPI.

Edit: Thought it over and talked to a friend about it and now I actually see what you are talking about. No it isn't stated that he is effecting the soul of his opponent with every hit. I guess the line of logic I was following was that since he can directly attack the soul, why wouldn't his physical punches also affect the soul of the opponent. Sorry.
 
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